The 'Grand' National?

SpringArising said:
Wow. Do you really think that a plod around the village is more dangerous than galloping at break-neck speed across four miles, over thirty jumps? Also, fear is different from fact. It's a FACT that horses will be hurt or killed in every Grand National. It's not a fact that horses will be hurt or killed during every hack.
How many horses are lost each year through accidents in the field, on the road or just through sheer lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in racing - that is a FACT.


Btw, please read properly next time. I said I couldn't care less if they removed all the jumps or shortened the race to a mile. I didn't say that's what they should do.
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How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
 
Madam Min said:
I've tried not to comment on this thread but hey ho! I am a NH fan and do go to the National meeting. Its not nice when horses are injured or sadly die and I dont think anybody connected/involved in racing wish for this to happen. Most of these horses are much loved and well cared for. Yes there will be a small minority who won't be so scrupulous but unfortunately I guess that's the same in all aspects of the equine world. I guess there will always be room for improvement re the horses welfare and I agree that more does need to be done for those horses that dont make the grade and after retirement. However to be completely sure that we don't abuse horses then perhaps we shouldn't ride or keep them at all!!!
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Well said. I too sat on my hands for a good while on this thread - I wish I hadn't even read it now as it only serves to raise my blood pressure ;)
It especially annoys me that people assume racehorses are owned and trained by heartless individuals who view them as nothing more than racing machines.
We took our newest ex racehorse to his first show last weekend. I emailed his former owner, trainer and breeder afterwards to let them know how well he had got on. I got three long replies stating how thrilled they were to hear of his progress, how much they thought of him and how grateful they were to be updated and please stay in touch! They all clearly cared very much for him.
We have numerous liveries on our yard who habitually overfeed their already morbidly obese horses. To me that is a greater cruelty than any in the Grand National.
 
minesadouble said:
How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
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You have just grouped together the entirety of the horse world over various activities and disciplines, across the space of a year. Of course there's going to be more injuries or deaths.

Horses being turned out in a field is absolutely necessary for their sanity. Being pushed to gallop until breaking-point is not.

This isn't about people wanting to campaign against all racing and ban it forever - it's about reducing the risk in whatever way we can to ensure that less horses die or are seriously injured from the race. Is that prospect really so offensive to you?
 
minesadouble said:
How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
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Just because there are more of them .
Far more horses will die at the races than doing any other sporting activity .
And that's before we deal with the eye popping wastage rate .
The percentage of horses in training is small as a percentage of horses in the country.
 
minesadouble said:
How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
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All horses are subject to those risks. The risks of NH racing are on top of those risks, not instead of them.
 
minesadouble said:
How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
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But racing is a *sport*. More people are killed, or suffer life changing injuries on the roads every day driving to work than in all the organised car races that happen each year - not just Formula One - ALL car races. But if there was a death in the car racing world approximately every other day (which is a statistic comparable with horse racing - approximately one horse dies every two days on UK racecourses), then the sporting bodies, indeed most of the country, would be up in arms.
 
Racing is a high risk sport, to some those risks are acceptable and to some they are not.
If I had the choice between coming back as a National Hunt racehorse or a cob owned by a numpty novice DIY livery owner with the best will in the world I'd rather be the racehorse Notwithstanding any associated risks!!
 
minesadouble said:
Racing is a high risk sport, to some those risks are acceptable and to some they are not.
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Of course. I cannot imagine why anyone would not support a sport in which an athlete loses their life every other day. Add in the extra "frisson" of occasionally not knowing whether the winner will make it to prize giving ceremony or collapse and die from over-exertion, and it beggers belief why anyone would consider such an activity questionable, let alone objectionable.

Support racing if that is your choice (more choice than the horses get) but don't delude yourself, or attempt to delude anyone else that racing is an industry that prioritises horse welfare over financial gain, ego and adrenaline rush.
 
minesadouble said:
Racing is a high risk sport, to some those risks are acceptable and to some they are not.
If I had the choice between coming back as a National Hunt racehorse or a cob owned by a numpty novice DIY livery owner with the best will in the world I'd rather be the racehorse Notwithstanding any associated risks!!
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Personally, I would rather come back as neither. I would rather come back as a horse owned by a competent, caring, responsible owner who didn't flog me to the point where I over heat.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are other scenarios which compromise welfare, it does not negate another entirely different one.
 
tess1 said:
How many horses are quietly destroyed when it becomes clear they will not become sound again, or their recovery not economically viable, and never make the statistics?
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Is humanely, or as you put it "quietly" putting down the ones who are either injured n a way that prevents them from being competitive/fatally injured, or not making the grade kinder than filling the world with useless, unwanted horses. Yes it would be nicer if the future of retired and/or failed racehorses could be improved/guaranteed, but TBH I think pts is kinder than paliming them off on clueless do-gooders who truly believe they are rescuing them.

Yes I know a lot of people successfully rehome/retrain racehorses, but I have witnessed far to many completely inappropriate pairings of people who buy/ or are given an ex-racehorse because its cheap, but do not consider the requirements.
 
Moomin1 said:
who didn't flog me to the point where I over heat.

.
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Erm...at no point was Many Clouds (or any of the horses) "flogged", for starters the rules limit jockeys to 3 times from the last to the finish line (quite a distance)and Leighton rode him very nicely to the finish, just keeping him together .
 
To all those that think racing is an unacceptable risk to horses, why not take yourselves to a market and see the real world of cruelty and man handling of livestock. The people, the vendors and the buyers of the poor unfortunate horses that end up there. I would rather be a racehorse any day. Yes I know some end up in dire situations, but so do most others. Minesadouble, we are never going to get through to these people on this forum.
 
LittleRooketRider said:
Is humanely, or as you put it "quietly" putting down the ones who are either injured n a way that prevents them from being competitive/fatally injured, or not making the grade kinder than filling the world with useless, unwanted horses. Yes it would be nicer if the future of retired and/or failed racehorses could be improved/guaranteed, but TBH I think pts is kinder than paliming them off on clueless do-gooders who truly believe they are rescuing them.

Yes I know a lot of people successfully rehome/retrain racehorses, but I have witnessed far to many completely inappropriate pairings of people who buy/ or are given an ex-racehorse because its cheap, but do not consider the requirements.
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I mean 'quietly' as in the slip under the radar and are not shown as racecourse fatalities in the statistics.

Kinder yet to not breed so many horses to the point where the 'wastage' rate is horrendous, and to not view horses as a commodity to be disposed of when they are of no further financial use. How different would the picture of racing look if every owner had to take responsibility for their elderly or unsound animals who were still capable of leading a life of quality - just not one of commercial value.
 
justabob said:
To all those that think racing is an unacceptable risk to horses, why not take yourselves to a market and see the real world of cruelty and man handling of livestock. The people, the vendors and the buyers of the poor unfortunate horses that end up there. I would rather be a racehorse any day. Yes I know some end up in dire situations, but so do most others. Minesadouble, we are never going to get through to these people on this forum.
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I don't need to be 'got through to'. I merely hold a different point of view.

I have addressed this point in my previous post with regards to racing being a 'sport' - which puts it in a different category to the daily ignorance and cruelty experienced by many unfortunate equines. Hypothesising on the kind of horse you might like to be in a future life does little to address the situation of those beings that are unlucky enough to be race horses in this life.
 
LittleRooketRider said:
Erm...at no point was Many Clouds (or any of the horses) "flogged", for starters the rules limit jockeys to 3 times from the last to the finish line (quite a distance)and Leighton rode him very nicely to the finish, just keeping him together .
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Yet he still overheated. There's something wrong with that IMO. If this horse is known to overheat then it shouldn't be raced.

ETA, what is this obsession on this forum for people to try and excuse one issue of poor welfare, by raising other examples? Just because there are animals elsewhere in the equine industry being abused, doesn't mean that in this instance it is ok. Of course there are horses and livestock in markets that are welfare concerns, as there are on DIY yards, private yards, dealers yards, dressage yards.. and so on.
 
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tess1 said:
I mean 'quietly' as in the slip under the radar and are not shown as racecourse fatalities in the statistics.

Kinder yet to not breed so many horses to the point where the 'wastage' rate is horrendous, and to not view horses as a commodity to be disposed of when they are of no further financial use. How different would the picture of racing look if every owner had to take responsibility for their elderly or unsound animals who were still capable of leading a life of quality - just not one of commercial value.
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There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.
 
There is a lot of serious overreaction going on this thread and meantime the real world carries on ! All the horses who ran are fine, the winner has paraded and looks amazing. He got tired, he was entitled to be tired, he recovered within minutes and will be treated like the hero he is for the rest of his life. The people looking for things to complain about in racing are looking the wrong way imo.
 
justabob said:
To all those that think racing is an unacceptable risk to horses, why not take yourselves to a market and see the real world of cruelty. Minesadouble, we are never going to get through to these people on this forum.
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I would be very concerned if I saw a horse being mistreated at a market, rest assured. However, the difference is that a very, very limited amount of horses die (or need to be shot) at the market itself as a result of what is being asked of them. The same can't be said for the Grand National.

What are your reasons for being in favour of it, besides from an entertainment POV?

bonny said:
All the horses who ran are fine
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No they're not. BK is suspected (vet's words) to have broken his ribs. That is not being fine, to me.
 
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justabob said:
There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.
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I agree with your sentiment. I do see Tess1's point though. Again, two wrongs don't make a right. I just wish that welfare could be improved vastly in all areas of the equine industry.
 
bonny said:
There is a lot of serious overreaction going on this thread and meantime the real world carries on ! All the horses who ran are fine, the winner has paraded and looks amazing. He got tired, he was entitled to be tired, he recovered within minutes and will be treated like the hero he is for the rest of his life. The people looking for things to complain about in racing are looking the wrong way imo.
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The horse couldn't care less if he's a 'hero' for finishing the National. The horse couldn't care less that he was paraded. And you cannot possibly say that all the horses who ran are fine. For starters, one of them has broken ribs.
 
SpringArising said:
I would be very concerned if I saw a horse being mistreated at a market, rest assured. However, the difference is that a very, very limited amount of horses die (or need to be shot) at the market itself as a result of what is being asked of them. The same can't be said for the Grand National.

What are your reasons for being in favour of it, besides from an entertainment POV?
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Most at a market are shot, sadly they do not arrive looking a million dollars fit to run, they arrive neglected, abused and unwanted.
 
justabob said:
There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.
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Yes, the fly grazing of coloured cobs is absolutely appalling. Well done for taking on an ex-racer (I hope you are not a 'numpty' as definied by a previous poster). However, this is a thread about racing ... an industry with a reputation for sending many horses to their death either when they don't achieve the required grade, or they are unsuitable to race for other reasons (temperament etc), or they reach a point where they need to be retired. As someone has already said - why keep on bringing in other equine welfare concerns ... if you want to defend your sport then do it .. don't just say 'oh, such and such is worse'. Maybe some folk on here could have a quick scan of point 2 in this article before continuing the discussion ... http://epona.tv/blog/2014/october/arguing-without-arguments
 
Moomin1 said:
The horse couldn't care less if he's a 'hero' for finishing the National. The horse couldn't care less that he was paraded. And you cannot possibly say that all the horses who ran are fine. For starters, one of them has broken ribs.
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This is getting silly, have you seen the video of him today, he looks 100%. Did you see the parade of former winners at Aintree ? All looking amazing and most of them in their 20's. One of the horses was hit by a following horse, yes and his connections say he will be fine. It was a freak accident.
 
bonny said:
This is getting silly, have you seen the video of him today, he looks 100%. Did you see the parade of former winners at Aintree ? All looking amazing and most of them in their 20's. One of the horses was hit by a following horse, yes and his connections say he will be fine. It was a freak accident.
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Of course he will look 100% today. He isn't overheating today. That's akin to saying that because a horse looks fine today, after it was beaten around the head yesterday, then it must be ok to do so!

The fact that some National winners reach 20 is irrelevant too. Many many don't, and it is irrelevant to the point I am talking about - that no horse should be raced in a race such as the National when they are known to over heat.
 
tess1 said:
Yes, the fly grazing of coloured cobs is absolutely appalling. Well done for taking on an ex-racer (I hope you are not a 'numpty' as definied by a previous poster). However, this is a thread about racing ... an industry with a reputation for sending many horses to their death either when they don't achieve the required grade, or they are unsuitable to race for other reasons (temperament etc), or they reach a point where they need to be retired. As someone has already said - why keep on bringing in other equine welfare concerns ... if you want to defend your sport then do it .. don't just say 'oh, such and such is worse'. Maybe some folk on here could have a quick scan of point 2 in this article before continuing the discussion ... http://epona.tv/blog/2014/october/arguing-without-arguments[/
No I am not a numpty, but that is a brilliant article, and I take your point. I am smiling.
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justabob said:
There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.
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It's the only one trying to take responsibility I agree!

Not to put too fine a point on it... is there any need to breed so many foals each year to find a handful of winning horses... Whilst lots of coloured cobs are tethered to the streets and left to die on moors, the numbers of tb's that are slaughtered each year way outnumber tb rehoming.

Does seem a terrible waste even if you are a supporter of the racing industry...
 
LittleRooketRider said:
FGS I will not claim to know the ins and outs, but it was not a case of him beating the cr@p out of the horse, but he exceeded the limit of 3 strokes, so anything from 4 strokes...thats not flogging.
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I'm not suggesting he did flog the horse ... I'm saying that there is a possiblity that he was mindful, due to previous experience, of the way he rode the horse at the finish. Obviously the stewards thought it serious enough to ban him for seven days and fine him £1,800.00
 
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