The turnout situation with Dani?

[+R Fanatic]

I havnt been on here for months now but I have read the article about Dani Goldstein (feathers in her hair in case people are unfamiliar) and how she has declared she doesnt turn her horses out. I am not sure if this has already been discussed but thought I would start a friendly convo. I am personally VERY pro-TO, and I am a keen follower of Shelby Dennis (one of the people who was most "upfront" with Dani, but I just wanted to see what all of your thoughts were?

 

[milliepops]

She won't be the only one.

 

[Ouch05]

I read the article and comments by Dani, Although I am pro turn out I don't think I am in a position to comment as I do not know her routine even though she did give a brief overview.

 

[TPO]

I dont think that you will find many/any posters on here that agree with no turnout. However I believe that you are in America and there are a lot of differences between horse keeping in the USA vs UK.

It doesn't matter what anyones opinion is as Dani has been quite clear that she wont be changing her mind or management practices. She wants her horses "safe" so that she can compete as she plans.

Anything posted that isnt in full agreement with her narrative is shut down with her claims of (cyber)bullying.

I dont agree with it, obviously, but she isnt alone with these practices and neither will she educate herself for the horses benefit so that's kinda that ??‍

 

[paddi22]

I can kind of see both sides. I can see her logic that someone hacking a horse 3 hours in a trail ride is more beneficial, healthy and stimulating than standing in a postage stamp turnout in mud at a hay bale for the same time. but then at the same time I do feel strongly that horses have the right to play, roll and have fun together in a social situation. and that the human wish to keep them intact shouldn't override the right of a horse to a social life and play.

 

[dogatemysalad]

I doubt she cares about public opinion to be honest.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Does anyone have a link to the article? I would be interested to read her justifications.

It seems from the HHO article on it that she believes that going on the treadmill twice a day and being hand grazed for an hour is a suitable alternative to turnout which I think is ludicrous. If you choose to partake in a sport where your 'instrument' is a living breathing animal, then you should be prepared to put the animals needs above your need to compete. She subjects her horses to a life of misery being cooped up just so she can fanny about firing them at fences every now and again, I'd be ashamed of myself. There would be uproar if a prolific dog agility competitor revealed that they kept their dogs in a crate 24/7 - I'm sure she would also kick off if she was told she has to sit in her bedroom 24/7 so she doesn't get injured.. 'oh, but we'll let you out for breakfast and to wander around the garden for an hour'.

I know lots of top end sport horses don't get turnout, I'd say the same to all of those too.

 

[Ceifer]

She won't be the only one.

She definitely isn’t. I’ve worked for showjumpers on the continent and it’s the norm for them not to go out with a high percentage of them. ?

 

[paddi22]

yeah I though she sounded quite defensive in her reply and compared it to being turned out in muddy postage stamp area, which wouldn't the the case at all in a high end yard. I have a sports horse that cannot get turned out in big fields or with large horses as he just constantly injures himself and he is recovering from a. tendon injury, so he goes out into a safe paddock with a quiet mini to play with . it's not the ideal (all the rest are out 24/7 in a big field) but it still gives him a quality of life and play.

If she didn't want the galloping around, she could have a custom designed track area for them to mooch around and forage. my main issue with it is that her 'leisure' time for the horses still involves them being under total control of a human or a machine for their relaxation time, which I feel is very wrong.

 

[milliepops]

the "but muddy postage stamps" argument is a familiar one though, it gets trotted out on here quite often.

I have some that are a bit postage stampy but it's a compromise thing with an awkward horse. and they aren't currently muddy!

 

[shortstuff99]

Does anyone have a link to the article? I would be interested to read her justifications.

It seems from the HHO article on it that she believes that going on the treadmill twice a day and being hand grazed for an hour is a suitable alternative to turnout which I think is ludicrous. If you choose to partake in a sport where your 'instrument' is a living breathing animal, then you should be prepared to put the animals needs above your need to compete. She subjects her horses to a life of misery being cooped up just so she can fanny about firing them at fences every now and again, I'd be ashamed of myself. There would be uproar if a prolific dog agility competitor revealed that they kept their dogs in a crate 24/7 - I'm sure she would also kick off if she was told she has to sit in her bedroom 24/7 so she doesn't get injured.. 'oh, but we'll let you out for breakfast and to wander around the garden for an hour'.

I know lots of top end sport horses don't get turnout, I'd say the same to all of those too.

Ta dah! https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...campaign=socialflow&utm_content=horseandhound


I know everyone here wants horses turned out pretty much 24/7 but I've got two who in winter just won't stay out for more than a few hours. They pace like crazy even with, grass, shelter, friends etc. What am I supposed to do then?

 

[milliepops]

I think ASBMO has read the H&H article. i gather the original spat was on Instagram and the comments have been deleted.

 

[paddi22]

Ta dah! https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...campaign=socialflow&utm_content=horseandhound


I know everyone here wants horses turned out pretty much 24/7 but I've got two who in winter just won't stay out for more than a few hours. They pace like crazy even with, grass, shelter, friends etc. What am I supposed to do then?

I keep some at home away from my bigger grazing and there's so much new science about constructing small horse spaces that understand their natural movements and behaviours and stop issues like pacing. If you google 'equiculture' they discuss how small areas can work.

 

[Birker2020]

Ta dah! https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...campaign=socialflow&utm_content=horseandhound


I know everyone here wants horses turned out pretty much 24/7 but I've got two who in winter just won't stay out for more than a few hours. They pace like crazy even with, grass, shelter, friends etc. What am I supposed to do then?

I keep mine on individual turnout and some people would object to that but having lost a horse who broke a leg 'playing' in the field and another who was badly kicked and ended up with stitches I much prefer to keep mine safe. They can play over the fence, I know its not the same but hey that's life.

 

[Birker2020]

The article explaining about the comments does not surprise me at all given that I am often at the receiving end of such comments. Social media is not for the faint hearted that's for sure and can be incredibly soul destroying and upsetting to those affected.

Why people can't just like other people and be more accepting of others is something far beyond my understanding.

 

[coblets]

I don't understand how people can claim time spent under saddle/in a horse walker is as good as (or better) than being turned out, where the horse can move as they wish.

As for the bullying thing - at what point does genuine concern for the horse's welfare stop, and hate begin? I think labelling all the criticism she got as bullying is a bit much.

 

[shortstuff99]

I keep some at home away from my bigger grazing and there's so much new science about constructing small horse spaces that understand their natural movements and behaviours and stop issues like pacing. If you google 'equiculture' they discuss how small areas can work.

This seems like a variation of a track system? Unfortunately I don't own my own land, plus she can tie up if she gets rained on.

 

[TPO]

When a horse isnt able to be a horse and display natural behaviours that's a welfare issue/cruelty IMO

Yes there are exceptions to every rule but often management decisions are made for the convenience and/or benefit of the owner.

IMO when you purchase any animal their welfare comes first.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I read the COTH thread on this and the part that worried me was how she revealed that she didn't turn out her horses. She was answering a rather gushing ('I adore you') comment that was asking about a youngster that gets up to mischief in the pasture. Dani's reply did not ask for anymore information about the young horse, the set up where it is kept or even what 'mischief' meant. She just said that she didn't turn out and the other person than stated that they would slowly reduce turnout time. Yes the questions did include asking if Dani turned her horses out but she could easily have qualified her answer with 'we work hard to keep them exercised' or 'this wouldn't suit every horse' or something.

I just find it so irresponsible.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

No turnout is an out and out welfare issue, no excuses whatsoever. I find it mind blowing that people still believe that keeping a horse cooped up in a stable for long periods of time is acceptable.
If I kept my Great Dane in my bathroom for 20+ hours a day but walked him in between I'm pretty sure I'd have the RSPCA round like a shot..!!!!

 

[smolmaus]

I don't understand how people can claim time spent under saddle/in a horse walker is as good as (or better) than being turned out, where the horse can move as they wish.

As for the bullying thing - at what point does genuine concern for the horse's welfare stop, and hate begin? I think labelling all the criticism she got as bullying is a bit much.

This is always the problem. At some point the pile on becomes more about people trying to out-do eachother with how outraged they can be and isn't about the original issue at all.

It almost always gives those on the receiving end of criticism a very neat way to avoid having to engage. They just say I AM BEING CYBERBULLIED and that's the end of it. Nobody wins, nothing changes.

 

[Muddywellies]

I'm shocked at how once again, someone has been ripped to pieces on social media.
Whilst I wouldn't choose to keep my horse in that way, the difference is my horse is purely a leisure horse and not an athlete. Top sport horses quite often don't get turnout and have a very strict routine. Indeed, they have large boxes where they can relax when they aren't being worked. Their boxes are purely for rest time and they aren't even groomed and tacked up in there. It's a whole different world to most of us and their yards run like a well oiled machine. Interestingly my horse is just a leisure horse but has a strict routine and she loves her box. I can leave the door wide open and she never makes a run for it and sometime have to really coax her out of her box. We can't compare with what horses should be doing in the wild ie foraging for 16 hrs a day as the horse doesn't know that. It was bred into this life and knows no different. I've seen extremely well bred comp turned out and all they do is fence walk. I think it's 'horses for courses' and Dani's regime is more common than people might like to imagine. Infact I'm thinking back to my childhood and many yards had no winter turnout so our horses were stabled from about Oct through to April and we had no horse walkers etc etc. They'd have a 20 min run around the arena whilst we mucked out. They seemed to survive just fine. What really really grates on me is seeing people's horses turned out before work at 7am into a horrible muddy paddock and left to stand there all day till they come back in at 6pm. Or people who leave their horse's stood in stables till late morning at weekends with no hay or water, sweating with too many rugs on. There are far worse things go on on DIY yards.

 

[paddi22]

They seemed to survive just fine. .

But is this good enough though when you are dealing with a living animal with social needs though? we are making an animal live in a situation humans created for their convenience. We have the research and science about how to best construct a man made environment for them that gives them enrichment and surfaces that don't mean they are standing in mud all day. I really think turnout needs to be revamped.

 

[Bernster]

I dont get the argument which seems to go along the lines of - there are other bad things happening (muddy paddocks etc), so this bad thing is ok...

Yes we compromise horse’s life by domesticating them (or whatever the right word is) but we should try to give them as good a life as we can, meeting their basic needs. Turnout for me is a basic need. And whilst some need indiv treatment which might be different, like less turnout, that doesn’t create a blanket rule for all.

And we did all kinds of stuff in the past that doesn’t need to continue forever. We learn, we adapt, and we improve things.

 

[milliepops]

I read the COTH thread on this and the part that worried me was how she revealed that she didn't turn out her horses. She was answering a rather gushing ('I adore you') comment that was asking about a youngster that gets up to mischief in the pasture. Dani's reply did not ask for anymore information about the young horse, the set up where it is kept or even what 'mischief' meant. She just said that she didn't turn out and the other person than stated that they would slowly reduce turnout time. Yes the questions did include asking if Dani turned her horses out but she could easily have qualified her answer with 'we work hard to keep them exercised' or 'this wouldn't suit every horse' or something.

I just find it so irresponsible.

yes this is a good point.

tbh i think if I was her and determined to keep them in that way I'd have just said "yes look after the legs after turnout" and leave it at that.... normalising no turnout was an own goal there.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

She didn't even ask how old the youngster was. Is the horse even backed?

 

[TPO]

I'm shocked at how once again, someone has been ripped to pieces on social media.
Whilst I wouldn't choose to keep my horse in that way, the difference is my horse is purely a leisure horse and not an athlete. Top sport horses quite often don't get turnout and have a very strict routine. Indeed, they have large boxes where they can relax when they aren't being worked. Their boxes are purely for rest time and they aren't even groomed and tacked up in there. It's a whole different world to most of us and their yards run like a well oiled machine. Interestingly my horse is just a leisure horse but has a strict routine and she loves her box. I can leave the door wide open and she never makes a run for it and sometime have to really coax her out of her box. We can't compare with what horses should be doing in the wild ie foraging for 16 hrs a day as the horse doesn't know that. It was bred into this life and knows no different. I've seen extremely well bred comp turned out and all they do is fence walk. I think it's 'horses for courses' and Dani's regime is more common than people might like to imagine. Infact I'm thinking back to my childhood and many yards had no winter turnout so our horses were stabled from about Oct through to April and we had no horse walkers etc etc. They'd have a 20 min run around the arena whilst we mucked out. They seemed to survive just fine. What really really grates on me is seeing people's horses turned out before work at 7am into a horrible muddy paddock and left to stand there all day till they come back in at 6pm. Or people who leave their horse's stood in stables till late morning at weekends with no hay or water, sweating with too many rugs on. There are far worse things go on on DIY yards.

Disagree with everything that you've written from horses not being tacked up in stables to "they don't know any different".

A horse is a horse and any "not knowing how to horse" is usually because of human intervention. Even if their poor brains dont know how to horse their digestive system does.

My horses dont leave their stables either (ok one does but hes cute so he gets away with almost everything) but it's not because they "love" their boxes it's because they are trained and conditioned (even the one that does as he pleases know what the rules are).

There are starving and abused horses worldwide so as long as things aren't as bad as that it's ok cos ya know "it could be worse" and they dont have a "bad" life ?

 

[Tarragon]

I read an article once that said if you substitute the word "stable" with "cage" it would make people think twice. The word "stable" has connotations of being a lovely place to be, as in warm, dry and filled with soft bedding, whereas "cage" implies a prison, but in both cases it is a space that contains an animal. There is a media campaign at the moment on Facebook to do with not keeping rabbits in those small hutches that you get from places like Pets-R-Us, as it is cruel, but the space provided by a hutch is 2 to 3 times more in proportion to the rabbit, that a standard stable is to a horse. I know it makes it very emotive but I don't think that it changes the facts.
I also think that it is wrong to assume that turn-out is all about the grazing, I think it is more to do with being able to socialise. So, perhaps, a turn out into a safe all weather area where the horse can roll and have a mooch about with a friend, is more beneficial to that horse than being out 24/7 in a small field on their own.
Whatever, I agree with all who say that it is wrong to not allow a horse time to be a horse among their own kind.
I wish I was better at writing!
(Edited as I think I got stable and cage the wrong way round! )

 

[cauda equina]

If you've got fans of the 'I adore you' type who hang on your every word you probably need to be careful what you say
DG's own horses sound to be micromanaged for much of the time and presumably she has the staff and facilities to deal with that
An amateur deciding that no turnout is ok because that's what DG does would be a different thing altogether

eta I love my bedroom but I wouldn't want to be in it for 23hrs a day, or bootcamped from one activity to the next to allow me to be out for longer

 

[paddi22]

We can't compare with what horses should be doing in the wild ie foraging for 16 hrs a day as the horse doesn't know that. It was bred into this life and knows no different.

just a counter point on this - the horse DOES have natural instincts to forage and move, it hasn't gone out of them at all. if they could change their instincts because of how they are keptnow, then we would have no horses spooking, because they'd know there are no predators hunting them now. horses now are still the same as horses 100 years ago on nearly all levels. they want to naturally move, have herds, forage, none of that has changed.