The turnout situation with Dani?

[smolmaus]

It's not abuse at all, there are far far worse things that some horses have to endure.

Wow. "Not abuse" is a low as hell bar.

Not going to a competition due to injury when you and your horse are at a high level could never be compensated for

Look, I dont compete and never will so pinch of salt but there are plenty of other sports to choose if you are unwilling to accept risks outside your control for your partners welfare.

Jaime Murray doesn't lock his brother in a closet all year so he can make sure he is sound to win some doubles matches.

 

[BaronSamedi]

Are the horses being beaten? No. are they starving? no. Are they lame or I'll and not being treated for what's ailing them? No. Many many horses in this country or world wide are.

 

[BaronSamedi]

Mine are all high laminitis risks. They all live out 24/7 on a track. The stable doors are open and they dont choose to go in there, which for me says it all

And Mine don't. Quite simple really, every one does things differently and my horses are happy as are yours I'm sure

 

[paddi22]

Are the horses being beaten? No. are they starving? no. Are they lame or I'll and not being treated for what's ailing them? No. Many many horses in this country or world wide are.

I dread when this defence comes up in debates. Just because something isn’t absolutely the worst worst thing in the world doesn’t mean it’s still not bad. If the world functioned that way then people couldn’t get sympathy about getting cancer because someone could say “well it could be worse you could be on fire and burning alive” ! There can be a range of bad things in the world.

 

[Winters100]

Are the horses being beaten? No. are they starving? no. Are they lame or I'll and not being treated for what's ailing them? No. Many many horses in this country or world wide are.

But surely the standards of someone who is making a living from competing, plus giving advice to teens via social media, should be very considerably higher than not beating them, starving them or keeping them without essential medical care?

 

[BaronSamedi]

But surely the standards of someone who is making a living from competing, plus giving advice to teens via social media, should be very considerably higher than not beating them, starving them or keeping them without essential medical care?

Then they can make there own minds up can't they, especially on yards when they have rules.

 

[Winters100]

Not going to a competition due to injury when you and your horse are at a high level could never be compensated for

I don't really get this. It happens all the time in every sport. Just because you earn your living using animals, whether as a competitor, using them in a riding school, or using a donkey to move loads, does not mean that you do not have a responsibility to give them a good life.

 

[Winters100]

Then they can make there own minds up can't they, especially on yards when they have rules.

Who can make their own minds up? The teens that are influenced by posts of people who they admire? I don't think that anyone would disagree that celebrities of any sort should use some common sense in their use of social media, especially when replying to a teenager. In this case she did not in my opinion. Someone could be hurt by following this advice.

 

[SpeedyPony]

^^this- the only suggestion was to reduce turnout, no mention (at the time) of how much work her horses got. There was no way of knowing how much work the (presumably young) fan was giving her youngster, potentially setting her up for having a green, underexercised horse boil over. Leaving welfare concerns aside, if that horse was on the usual leisure horse schedule of an hour or so a day, less turnout is a good recipe for a hospital visit.
Not a well thought out piece of advice however you slice it.

 

[GTRJazz]

I don't really get this. It happens all the time in every sport. Just because you earn your living using animals, whether as a competitor, using them in a riding school, or using a donkey to move loads, does not mean that you do not have a responsibility to give them a good life.

If it was me I would turn out with an trusted companion in a safe as can be paddock, but it would depend how intense and scientific the training program is. The Film Harry and the Snowman is a good example of a top horse just been one of the family and leading an normal life between events

 

[MissMay]

Bertram Allen turns his horses out alot and they regularly get holidays out in the fields so its definitely not unheard of.


I used to work in a hugely expensive stud in America with million dollar horses and every single one went out for 6-8h each evening. Those on box rest or restricted turnout had a large pen constructed in the paddock so they could graze, roll and interact. This was colts, fillys, broodmares and all the racing horses. Fillys went in group turnout of 6 and colts mostly individual but some in pairs and all could see 12 others at all times.
The stallions also went out for 8h a day all day. And this was every big stud in Kentucky not just ours

so its not really an argument I lean to that "everyone" does it so therefore I'm not the bad guy

 

[Boulty]

Just because something is seen as "the norm" doesn't make it right or good welfare practice. "But everybody does it" or "well this is how we've always done it" are not evidence based statements. They're excuses.

Horses are designed to move. It is healthier for every system in their body if they are allowed to do so.

In cases where there is the money for things like horse walkers, solariums & indoor arenas then there is also money to do things that benefit the welfare of the horse such as having a small, surfaced outdoor area attached to each stable so that horses with limited field access can still go outdoors. Such as investing in safe all weather turnout areas if the fields turn into a mudbath in winter & then investigating ways to enrich it if it's a bit boring. Such as putting basic shelters in the field to give horses the option of shelter in bad weather. I know a lot of this is beyond the reach of the average livery yard but for yards with money to burn on every other convenience the "but I don't want them stood in mud" excuse is a bit pathetic. I also find it really sad that there are horses so institutionalised that they aren't able to be turned out without running themselves ragged to the point of injury.

 

[smolmaus]

Are the horses being beaten? No. are they starving? no. Are they lame or I'll and not being treated for what's ailing them? No. Many many horses in this country or world wide are.

Horrendous attitude. You know what leads to horses starving, being beaten and neglected? Selfishness of the exact same kind that sees them as money making machines, whether that's a mare breeding endless foals for the low end market or a horse who never asked to be an "athlete" who ends up being worth 100k. If you don't see them as animals with feelings that need a basic standard of care that allows them to be a horse, have friends, have relaxation time and actually enjoy their lives it allows all sorts of abuses to happen.

 

[windand rain]

I know some horses get injured in paddocks but in 60 years of horses I personally know far more that have been injured in stables or because they have been stabled for long periods. These injuries are second only to those that occur in accidents while competing or practising for competition. It has in my experience been much less serious injuries caused in turnout and Yes a kicking match can result in serious or fatal injuries but so can kicking in the stable against brick walls, I wouldn't own a horse if it had to have less than 8 preferably 12 hours or more turnout 365 days of the year. Caveat this with time at competition or leisure ridden work
Most notable
a horse broke both back legs kicking a stable wall out of sheer frustration of watching the others moving around the yard.
Friends horse pulled a leg off after getting it stuck under a wooden stable while rolling in a corner
A stallion on the DIY yard that was in 24/7 as he was not allowed out due to his value and the fact he was entire was being schooled in an arena spooked at a pigeon and pulled a forelimb tendon he was gelded and turned out after his recovery and lived to a ripe old age with no further injury
Pony showjumping at local show broke a leg jumping could go on have had horses of all sizes and abilities and have been lucky I guess as they have never had a field injury. Once or twice have had jumping injuries but never turned out at the time. I gues there are others that have experienced field injuries and will feel differently but just because accidents happen doesnt make it fair to compromise horse welfare.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I know far more horses who have died to e.g colic (typically stabled) than I do to field accidents. Obviously any accident is devastating when it happens but we can't control absolutely everything, so our responsibility as owners is to provide safe & appropriate environments for our horses. 99.9% of horses are social animals who need to move, groom and interact with other horses, so that is what we need to give them.

 

[Winters100]

I gues there are others that have experienced field injuries and will feel differently but just because accidents happen doesnt make it fair to compromise horse welfare.

I sold a horse 2.5 years ago to a very good home. 12 months later he broke a leg in the paddock, he was turned out with the herd he had been with for many months, and it was most likely a kick. They had him operated but in the end they could not get him up and he was pts in the hospital.

Would I change it if I could go back and sell him to someone who would keep him 'safe' in a box? Hell no. He was unfortunate but, just as we do not prevent our children from living their lives and going outside the home, we should not in my opinion deny our horses turnout just in case they are injured.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

And Mine don't. Quite simple really, every one does things differently and my horses are happy as are yours I'm sure

In what ways do they dhow they are happy..???

 

[Bellaboo18]

I sold a horse 2.5 years ago to a very good home. 12 months later he broke a leg in the paddock, he was turned out with the herd he had been with for many months, and it was most likely a kick. They had him operated but in the end they could not get him up and he was pts in the hospital.

Would I change it if I could go back and sell him to someone who would keep him 'safe' in a box? Hell no. He was unfortunate but, just as we do not prevent our children from living their lives and going outside the home, we should not in my opinion deny our horses turnout just in case they are injured.

100% this for me. It's got to be about quality of life and unfortunately that means taking some risks.

 

[Palindrome]

Lately I have been watching little documentaries about professional riders in France (mostly international show jumpers but some dressage riders as well), all of them (bar one dressage rider who didn't talk about turnout) said turnout is essential and proudly showed their grass paddocks. Most horses seemed to be in individual grass paddocks but still the pros said how it is essential that the horses get turned out. Their horses also go on a walker daily.
I have no idea who Dani is but she sounds very misguided.

 

[teddypops]

In my experience horses who have a decent amount of turnout behave sensibly when they are out, it’s the norm for them, so not very exciting. It’s the horses who have restricted turnout that go mad every time they are turned out. I have a friend who prefers her horses in and they very rarely go out because ‘they play up and injure themselves every time’ . They play up because they have been stuck in a stable for a week. I don’t think it’s acceptable to have horses (of any value) and not allow them the freedom of turnout.

 

[Winters100]

I believe that H+H have edited their article to add some comment from World Horse Welfare regarding over stabling. Interesting.

 

[ycbm]

Jaime Murray doesn't lock his brother in a closet all year so he can make sure he is sound to win some doubles matches.

?

But what a great analogy!
.

 

[brighteyes]

My mare, 10years prior to being with me, had been stabled, locked in, at night. Turnout during the day. For 10 whole years. Same routine.

She came to me and i just happened to have 1 large barn but 2 horses, so decided they could both use it , share it, and i initially shut them in at night open/turnout during the day.....then after some weeks i decided to leave the door open onto large hardcore corral area so they could choose when to get shelter, have a sleep etc.
It works well.

One day a bad storm was forecast, so i was wondering what to do - lots of trees surround the barn/yard/grazing and have been blown down in previous storms. I thought shutting the barn doors, with open stable tops, would be best. Got both horses in the barn and as soon as the mare realised i was shutting the doors she bolted out of there. Refused to be shut in.

They never ‘get used’ to anything, even after 10 years of stabling she hates it when given free choice - they prefer freedom.

We have a mare who came to us with a note saying 'must have access to her stable during turnout'. They weren't kidding either. She has broken gates and degloved a foreleg when this has been overlooked. Or she fence runs. Even when everyone else is out behind her.

I have a high risk laminitic, a paddock-hopper and a TB who will only eat for about an hour then gets in a real stress and gallops about madly until you go and get him.

Any volunteers to build me a track system, a stable-complex for all of them in a field which the mare and TB deem suitable and have a word with the paddock hopper?

I feel crippled with guilt, I really do. The TB has a huge stable at night 12 x 24 and a day barn 30' square. He will not go out by himself or stay out beyond his personal limit. The mare HAS to have access, which we can permit but then everyone else wants to follow her about. The EMS PPID one (developed this through genetics and age - I don't do 'fat') has not had laminitis and I do not intend him to get it. Muzzles and a bare paddock work in conjunction with the 22 x 11 stables. Both have a 22x12 area in front and to which their doors never close (unless there's ice). The mare and pony can mutually groom over the electric fence stopping her wellying him again, as she did in the field, giving him a massive haematoma.

I had a sand-rolling pen specially built and a covered horse-walker for the oldies and in extreme bad weather in the winter to get them moving.

No turnout is awful and just a big NO for me but facilitating it - or worse still FORCING it - can cause frustrating and dangerous scenarios none of us want to have to deal with. Sometimes I shut my eyes and cross my fingers and pray for no injuries or deaths. My fields, however, have to take the hit. I long since stopped being precious about them. Oh, the TB is also a SPECTACULAR hole-digger. 3 feet across by a foot deep. Yeah, he booby-traps his own grazing...

 

[TPO]

We have a mare who came to us with a note saying 'must have access to her stable during turnout'. They weren't kidding either. She has broken gates and degloved a foreleg when this has been overlooked. Or she fence runs. Even when everyone else is out behind her.

I have a high risk laminitic, a paddock-hopper and a TB who will only eat for about an hour then gets in a real stress and gallops about madly until you go and get him.

Any volunteers to build me a track system, a stable-complex for all of them in a field which the mare and TB deem suitable and have a word with the paddock hopper?

I feel crippled with guilt, I really do. The TB has a huge stable at night 12 x 24 and a day barn 30' square. He will not go out by himself or stay out beyond his personal limit. The mare HAS to have access, which we can permit but then everyone else wants to follow her about. The EMS PPID one (developed this through genetics and age - I don't do 'fat') has not had laminitis and I do not intend him to get it. Muzzles and a bare paddock work in conjunction with the 22 x 11 stables. Both have a 22x12 area in front and to which their doors never close (unless there's ice). The mare and pony can mutually groom over the electric fence stopping her wellying him again, as she did in the field, giving him a massive haematoma.

I had a sand-rolling pen specially built and a covered horse-walker for the oldies and in extreme bad weather in the winter to get them moving.

No turnout is awful and just a big NO for me but facilitating it - or worse still FORCING it - can cause frustrating and dangerous scenarios none of us want to have to deal with. Sometimes I shut my eyes and cross my fingers and pray for no injuries or deaths. My fields, however, have to take the hit. I long since stopped being precious about them. Oh, the TB is also a SPECTACULAR hole-digger. 3 feet across by a foot deep. Yeah, he booby-traps his own grazing...

The huge difference is that you are treating each horse as an individual and meeting their specific needs.

The rider in question is not even treating horse like horses never mind individuals. They are all kept in the same regime with no turnout and not allowing them to horse at all. Every minute of their day is micro managed and controlled by a human.

But hey, horses get beat up by some owners and starved by others (or like a livery I was on both by the same owner) so its absolutely fine to deprive them of any sort of mentally healthy existence because worse happens ? <don't feed the troll>

 

[ycbm]

Mine had put themselves in this morning when I looked on the camera, and had been in for some time as their rugs were dry. And for my mare, that meant she had nothing to eat as she had a muzzle on and couldn't get the scraps on the floor through the hole. She isn't habituated to being in, either, for the 7 years before she came to me last year, she lived out in a similar area.

It's interesting watching horses when they have a choice. Some often choose to be in.

There's no one size fits all rule here.

My feeling is they should be out at least 8 hours every day if they can/will, but with company (unless they are a true loner, they do exist) , and only in an area big enough to canter at speed. I don't accept "they are too valuable", either meant emotionally to the owner, or money value, as a reason not to do that.

What I do accept is that there is immense pressure on land in some areas, with winter turnout very scarce, and that many horses seem to cope perfectly well with that. And if the alternative is that owning a horse is just a rich man's sport, that it's OK that the horse compromises a bit, as long as they get at least an hour solid exercise a day that isn't in a horse walker or all in an arena/lunge pen.

I broke all these "rules" when I was first a horse owner, I know better these days, but I do understand why horses are often kept as they are.
.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

All of our racehorses get turned out every single day. When in work they are turned out in individual paddocks unless they are a numpty then they are turned out with an old companion horse. They all go on their holidays in big groups with no back shoes on in big holiday fields for 6-8 weeks every summer. Our Scottish National winner is currently turned out with 2 other mates in a field with a bale of haylage until their summer field is ready and they can all go out together.

It doesn't matter how good they are they all get turned out come rain or shine with the appropriate rugs on.

Horses need time out to be themselves. To roll, get dirty, have a buck and a kick.

A lot of racing yard are turning out more now. Obviously the big factories in Newmarket can't as they have no where to turn out. But the majority of yards outside of training centers give turnout at least 3 times a week.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It's so tough in my region. So many people are ok with horses living in stables all the time, year round, or 8 months out of 12. Then they often use this "mattress" style of stable keeping (aka, never take the wet out) with straw and the stables reak. Blows my damn mind. Especially when they have a lot of land available.

I explained it to a fellow livery the other day and said, you spend your hour or two here then go home and have stuff to do. You can shop, watch TV, surf the web, go for a walk, do housework, etc. Your horse is left to stare at these 4 walls where she can hardly move for 22 hours. Only turn around in a small circle. You (human) don't think about it because you're off doing xyz. Then you wonder why your horse is stiff when you ride. ?‍

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Mine live out 24/7/365 (no choice, no stables!) and honestly in the winter they just stand still in a basically stable-sized patch, eating a haynet, but looking a bit miserable out in the wind and rain! And they get no exercise at all in the depths of winter. So they'd probably be better off in all respects if they were stabled 24/7 with some proper exercise.

But in the summer they're so happy mooching round the track, picking at all the goodies in the hedge, roaming endlessly to find that *perfect* spot to roll, snoozing for hours in the sunshine. No amount of exercise could compensate for that.

So basically, quite often zero turnout can be the lesser of two evils in certain circumstances, especially if it's managed with the horse's welfare as the top priority (ie if it really IS the lesser of two evils, not just the most convenient option) But I can't get on board with any management regime that places human convenience/enjoyment/"success" far ahead of the welfare of the horse.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

I feel crippled with guilt, I really do

Why on earth do you feel guilty? This sounds like the absolute best set-up ever!

 

[Kat]

I think her advice was irresponsible.

While you need to treat horses as individuals and there will be some for whom turnout is difficult/impossible the vast majority should be getting daily turnout. I think any suggestion otherwise needs extreme care.

There is no excuse for a blanket no turnout rule for competition horses and it is disappointing that some treat their horses this way. Those who do need to realise that what they are doing is not great horsemanship and it is right to disapprove of such failings in the standard of care.

There are plenty of top level competitors with top level horses that are turned out daily. Carl Hester is vocal about the importance of turn out and hacking. My relative works with top showjumpers in the UK and the vast majority, even the stallions (possibly all I am not sure) get daily turnout, as well as hacking and time on the walker. The youngsters are kept in groups sharing space in indoor pens when they aren't out. Just because they are top horses doesn't mean that they shouldn't get some relaxation.