The turnout situation with Dani?

[Elno]

Poor horse.

I think Peder Fredriksson, one of Swedens top riders in show jumping, and currently ranking nr 4 in the world, is a good role model concerning horse management at the top level. This is H&M All In messing around with his buddy in turn out. Horses should be allowed to be horses-no matter how valuable they might be.

https://www.tidningenridsport.se/kolla-klippet-os-hastens-hyss-i-hagen/

 

[smolmaus]

Spoilered for possible sensitive info

Spoiler

At the sanctuary we have two mares who were kept in the same stables for up to (as far as the person would admit) 4 years with zero turnout or opportunity to socialise with eachother. They were well behaved, walked out of their stables for water when asked, pootled back in again, they are very well mannered. If they hadn't also been riddled with worms and lice and filthy from standing in their own muck you might not notice how completely shut down they are and think they were just two lovely quiet ponies. The difference between them, a clear cut neglect case and a 50k horse is a few hours of directed exercise per day, on paper anyway.

Of course this is an extreme comparison but I don't think there should be any comparison at all possible between the two situations. When they finally got to touch eachother after arriving with us they groomed eachother for 10 solid minutes, it was heartbreaking.

 

[stormox]

I have a video on jumping by Tim Stockdale who states on it he doesnt turn his top horses out as they would jump out....

 

[SEL]

Spoilered for possible sensitive info

I think its easy to condition horses to a life inside a stable - they like routine and if they don't know any other scenario then they are just going to shut down and get on with it.

Having my non horsey OH spend more time at the yard with me during lock down has been an interesting exercise in someone who has no real preconceptions commenting on how he can guess which horses weren't turned out on various days, weeks etc during winter by their behaviours in the stable. He has never been told that weaving or cribbing is a stress behaviour, but he can see by the body language the horse isn't happy.

by the beginning of Feb my winter trash paddock was vile, but both horses would still march out of their stables in the morning and spend time socialising with each other and their neighbours over the fence. They would nibble hay, talk to the pig in the garden backing onto them and flirt with the old lady who I pretty sure ignored my no treat rule. When local kids would come to see the pig they'd wander over to talk to them too. They knew broadly what time I'd be there and so long as it wasn't lashing down (in which case they were in early) they'd still be nibbling at whatever grass was left until they heard my car in the distance.

So even though it was far from perfect, both horses were keen to go out every morning.

The pony was on box rest for the worst of the weather and she was an angel - but the look on her face when she had her first 15 mins turnout was priceless. She may well have tolerated box rest but outside with her friends was where she wanted to be.

I get competitors wanting to look after expensive horses, I really do. But these are living animals and we have come a long, long way in the past few decades with animal welfare. I think we are kidding ourselves convincing horses are OK with no turnout. If they were kept in a zoo then it wouldn't be allowed. Plus at that level I'd hope they had the money to invest in better options than a small muddy turnout paddock

 

[Amirah]

Feather person is just plain selfish, that's what it boils down to. Selfishness and dearth of empathy. Sad.

 

[Birker2020]

I think its easy to condition horses to a life inside a stable - they like routine and if they don't know any other scenario then they are just going to shut down and get on with it.

Having my non horsey OH spend more time at the yard with me during lock down has been an interesting exercise in someone who has no real preconceptions commenting on how he can guess which horses weren't turned out on various days, weeks etc during winter by their behaviours in the stable. He has never been told that weaving or cribbing is a stress behaviour, but he can see by the body language the horse isn't happy.

by the beginning of Feb my winter trash paddock was vile, but both horses would still march out of their stables in the morning and spend time socialising with each other and their neighbours over the fence. They would nibble hay, talk to the pig in the garden backing onto them and flirt with the old lady who I pretty sure ignored my no treat rule. When local kids would come to see the pig they'd wander over to talk to them too. They knew broadly what time I'd be there and so long as it wasn't lashing down (in which case they were in early) they'd still be nibbling at whatever grass was left until they heard my car in the distance.

So even though it was far from perfect, both horses were keen to go out every morning.

The pony was on box rest for the worst of the weather and she was an angel - but the look on her face when she had her first 15 mins turnout was priceless. She may well have tolerated box rest but outside with her friends was where she wanted to be.

I get competitors wanting to look after expensive horses, I really do. But these are living animals and we have come a long, long way in the past few decades with animal welfare. I think we are kidding ourselves convincing horses are OK with no turnout. If they were kept in a zoo then it wouldn't be allowed. Plus at that level I'd hope they had the money to invest in better options than a small muddy turnout paddock

Even if top riders aren't confident enough to turn their horses out because they are worried they could get injured there are some stable yard set ups where the horse can walk through a door in the back of the stable to a small fenced enclosure with either hard standing, rubber or some other surface or grass, so at least it experiences outdoor activity.

At Robert Smiths yard where I was lucky enough to stable for a short time he had eight or nine small paddocks where horses could be turned out daily in the warmer months, I believe even his top horses were out in the paddocks on a daily or every other day basis.

 

[sport horse]

I have a competition yard and we do turn the horses out except in the winter months when they go into sand corrales several times a week for a bit of freedom and a roll. I dont care for the total non turn out. However even worse I hate the fields I see around the M25 (Surrey section in particular) where one big field is fenced into squares with electric fencing. No shade, no water, just ghastly square plots of baked grass. Are these horses left there all day? I cannot bear to think about that - it is real cruelty. At least the horses in stables have shade, shelter, water etc etcand from what I read about Dani, the horses are exercised out hacking (unlike many whose riders would be too terrrified to hack out preferring the safety of a 40 x 20 fenced sand arena!) they are hand grazed, treadmill and walker so plenty of variety in their lives.

 

[smolmaus]

I have a competition yard and we do turn the horses out except in the winter months when they go into sand corrales several times a week for a bit of freedom and a roll. I dont care for the total non turn out. However even worse I hate the fields I see around the M25 (Surrey section in particular) where one big field is fenced into squares with electric fencing. No shade, no water, just ghastly square plots of baked grass. Are these horses left there all day? I cannot bear to think about that - it is real cruelty. At least the horses in stables have shade, shelter, water etc etcand from what I read about Dani, the horses are exercised out hacking (unlike many whose riders would be too terrrified to hack out preferring the safety of a 40 x 20 fenced sand arena!) they are hand grazed, treadmill and walker so plenty of variety in their lives.

In comparison to a bare, sunbaked patch of nothing with no water (???) yes Dani's methods sound wonderful but that's not a realistic comparison. If you need to compare her situation to actual welfare cases that doesn't actually say much for her. There is a range from ideal to cruel and you want to be comparing people to the ideal, not the worst possible scenario!

It is variety but none of it is what a normal horse would actually prefer to be doing. It's directed and regulated, it isn't relaxing wind-down time to practise natural behaviours.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It may be a bit of whataboutery, but tiny shelterless electric fenced mini turnout squares are now very common, and yard owners would be horrified at their welfare standards being called to account over them.

'But we offer turnout' they cry.

I don't like the Dani version either.

 

[Winters100]

I read the COTH thread on this and the part that worried me was how she revealed that she didn't turn out her horses. She was answering a rather gushing ('I adore you') comment that was asking about a youngster that gets up to mischief in the pasture. Dani's reply did not ask for anymore information about the young horse, the set up where it is kept or even what 'mischief' meant. She just said that she didn't turn out and the other person than stated that they would slowly reduce turnout time. Yes the questions did include asking if Dani turned her horses out but she could easily have qualified her answer with 'we work hard to keep them exercised' or 'this wouldn't suit every horse' or something.

I just find it so irresponsible.

Absolutely agree, totally irresponsible not to explain her regime and to note that there are downsides. Given that the person who asked the question sounds like an inexperienced teenager I doubt that they have staff to manage their horse while they are in school.

I personally would never keep a horse without turnout, and I am lucky that I am on a yard where YO does not accept horses unless the owner agrees to minimum 4 hours turnout per day. Only exceptions are box rest or weather that could be dangerous - this only happened on 1 day last year when we had a gale and were worried about trees coming down. Our paddocks are not postage stamps, and although the lower part of mine can become a bit of a swamp there is a large upper area which drains well, a shelter and ample natural shade. I find her comparing no turnout to horses kept in tiny, muddy 'postage stamps' somewhat infantile - one would presume that if she did turn her horses out she would have an adequate amount of properly managed land.

Advising a teen not to turn out is ridiculous, and even if it was not firm 'advice' it should have been quite clear from the tone of the question that the writer would likely follow suit if told that her horses were not turned out. The horse will have a poor life, and there are risks of injury in a teen riding an over-fresh horse which is standing in a box for hours on end.

 

[paddi22]

I have a competition yard and we do turn the horses out except in the winter months when they go into sand corrales several times a week for a bit of freedom and a roll. I dont care for the total non turn out. However even worse I hate the fields I see around the M25 (Surrey section in particular) where one big field is fenced into squares with electric fencing. No shade, no water, just ghastly square plots of baked grass. Are these horses left there all day? I cannot bear to think about that - it is real cruelty. At least the horses in stables have shade, shelter, water etc etcand from what I read about Dani, the horses are exercised out hacking (unlike many whose riders would be too terrrified to hack out preferring the safety of a 40 x 20 fenced sand arena!) they are hand grazed, treadmill and walker so plenty of variety in their lives.

but it's the style of variety. if I lived, ate and slept in my toilet, and then my boss took me for a walk in the park, then my boss put me on a treadmill, then put in a machine where I walked around in circles, then put me on a rope and let me pick at a Buffett table, I would technically be doing SOMETHING better than being stuck in my toilet, but surely kind of life is psychologically not healthy for horses? they have no choice at any stage really where to go, when they move, who they interact with, even the pace they move at, no spontaneous fun, running or play. that can't be psychologically good surely?

 

[paddi22]

I think what annoys me the most about it is that Dani has the resources and access to knowledge to do better. The normal livery owner in Uk has probably fairly limited funds and fairly limited choice of what's available around them. For someone whose horses earn her money, the least she can do is give them the most psychologically healthy life she can and there are simple clever ways to do it without just letting a horse loose in a massive field with herds of other horses.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think it's the lack of unstructured time to display natural behaviours that bothers me. Do they get the opportunity to roll, for example? Or to groom other horses?

I also think the instagram comment where she promotes no turnout with no clarification as to what she does offer is poor.

I agree she won't be alone, and I agree other set ups are also bad, but that doesn't excuse her.

 

[TGM]

As for the bullying thing - at what point does genuine concern for the horse's welfare stop, and hate begin? I think labelling all the criticism she got as bullying is a bit much.

I think you may not have seen the comments on social media about Dani that I have! Whilst a few are calm, factual concerns about lack of turnout, many of them are purely hateful, vindictive personal attacks, sometimes with no mention of the original turnout issue. And presumably having been blocked from commenting on Dani's own social media channels many of her critics have taken to finding any footage of her on other channels (even if it is a few second clip of her course walking in a group of other riders) to continue their personal attacks using words that I can't type on this forum! So for me this is where genuine concern has actually turned to hate and cyber-bullying.

For the record I am very, very pro daily turnout of some sort for horses. Our own horses compete and are out in the fields, on average, for fifteen hours a day. I am totally for people raising welfare concerns about lack of turnout in a calm and reasoned way. However, when it turns into a personal vendetta and a online game of keyboard warriors trying to outdo each other, then it makes me feel very uncomfortable. Apart from anything else, it doesn't actually highlight the welfare concerns in a positive way. As someone said above, it allows the issue just to be written off as 'cyber bullying' or the actions of 'hysterical keyboard warriors' rather than being serious genuine concerns.

 

[GTRJazz]

I had my picture taken with a horse at Burghley as it was a Grey like mine. When I did a Google search to see how the horse was doing it had been put to sleep due to an Paddock injury. If I was a Professional rider I would not risk turning out if the horse was in work. As a leisure rider I try to turn out as much as possible but in the past found this very hard due to our local yards having no turn out for months on end.

 

[stormox]

I had my picture taken with a horse at Burghley as it was a Grey like mine. When I did a Google search to see how the horse was doing it had been put to sleep due to an Paddock injury. If I was a Professional rider I would not risk turning out if the horse was in work. As a leisure rider I try to turn out as much as possible but in the past found this very hard due to our local yards having no turn out for months on end.

This really. Especially as often the rider does not own the horse and could be sued for hundreds of thousands of £s if someones top showjumper was injured.
I suppose the crux of the matter is do we have horses for our own benefit, or the horses? Most professionals have them for themselves and their owners.

 

[Casey76]

I had my picture taken with a horse at Burghley as it was a Grey like mine. When I did a Google search to see how the horse was doing it had been put to sleep due to an Paddock injury. If I was a Professional rider I would not risk turning out if the horse was in work. As a leisure rider I try to turn out as much as possible but in the past found this very hard due to our local yards having no turn out for months on end.

and what about ethics and morality? It isn’t ethical to deny horses their ability to display natural behaviours.

as for liability... that’s what insurance is for. While it would be highly disappointing to miss a class due to an injury, at some point even professionals have say “that’s horses”, else they should be concentrating on something mechanical, and not a living, breathing being which has needs and desires of its own.

To wrap them up in cotton wool, have them confined 24/7 except for structured exercise is abominable.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I'm shocked at how once again, someone has been ripped to pieces on social media.
Whilst I wouldn't choose to keep my horse in that way, the difference is my horse is purely a leisure horse and not an athlete. Top sport horses quite often don't get turnout and have a very strict routine. Indeed, they have large boxes where they can relax when they aren't being worked. Their boxes are purely for rest time and they aren't even groomed and tacked up in there. It's a whole different world to most of us and their yards run like a well oiled machine. Interestingly my horse is just a leisure horse but has a strict routine and she loves her box. I can leave the door wide open and she never makes a run for it and sometime have to really coax her out of her box. We can't compare with what horses should be doing in the wild ie foraging for 16 hrs a day as the horse doesn't know that. It was bred into this life and knows no different. I've seen extremely well bred comp turned out and all they do is fence walk. I think it's 'horses for courses' and Dani's regime is more common than people might like to imagine. Infact I'm thinking back to my childhood and many yards had no winter turnout so our horses were stabled from about Oct through to April and we had no horse walkers etc etc. They'd have a 20 min run around the arena whilst we mucked out. They seemed to survive just fine. What really really grates on me is seeing people's horses turned out before work at 7am into a horrible muddy paddock and left to stand there all day till they come back in at 6pm. Or people who leave their horse's stood in stables till late morning at weekends with no hay or water, sweating with too many rugs on. There are far worse things go on on DIY yards.

Just because others do it or there are worse off animals out there doesn't make it right. The turnout situation at many livery yards disgusts me too....it simply isn't acceptable. The horse might have been born into these situations but one could argue that he also doesn't know he's an athlete either. All the horse knows is that he's a horse and wants/needs to do "horse stuff". Human athletes have strict routines but they don't sit in their bedroom til they go out to train, they have to look after their mental health as well as their physical health.
One of the most dangerous phrases in the English language is "we've always done it this way".
Surviving isn't thriving...and we owe it to our horses to fo right by them.

 

[milliepops]

The horse might have been born into these situations but one could argue that he also doesn't know he's an athlete either. .

I think this is at the nub of it for me. it can't all be at the expense of the horse. And there are ways to mitigate the risks a fair bit, I don't turn my ridden horse out in company as she starts fights but she gets to exhibit the normal horse behaviour that I can facilitate safely by having her own paddock surrounded by others. i know a lot of people don't like individual turnout but I think it's an acceptable happy medium for those that you need to take extra care with.

Mine stands in her stable all day looking quite content if she has to...but she does *love* being outside, even when the grass is almost non existent, even when the weather is bad, it's still her preference.

 

[Rowreach]

It may be a bit of whataboutery, but tiny shelterless electric fenced mini turnout squares are now very common, and yard owners would be horrified at their welfare standards being called to account over them.

'But we offer turnout' they cry.

I don't like the Dani version either.

What is more worrying is that many owners actually request this sort of turn out at livery yards.

Maybe this sort of discussion will help to educate more people about what is necessary, what is desirable, what is unethical, what is cruel, and set that alongside what is actually possible and achievable - certainly where I am most people don't turn out on grass in the winter because it would be a swamp and the horses would be up to their tummies in muck. But more and more people are understanding that being out of the stable is essential for a horse's wellbeing, and are constructing all weather turnout areas or turning out in an arena.

And many more people are turning to track systems of turnout, which in areas like ours are an ideal solution.

I do think though that there is an astonishing ignorance as to the lives many riding school horses live - I lasted a mere 12 weeks in the best paying job I've ever had, at a very well known centre, because the state of the horses (looked amazing, well fed, exercised, utterly shut down) was something I couldn't cope with, and wasn't allowed to change.

It's not just comp riders.

 

[milliepops]

no... my closest RS makes me wince when I drive past

 

[BaronSamedi]

I know everyone here wants horses turned out pretty much 24/7 but I've got two who in winter just won't stay out for more than a few hours. They pace like crazy even with, grass, shelter, friends etc. What am I supposed to do then?

I do not want my horses out 24/7 ever!! One is a high laminitis risk the other a prolific fence jumper. Also I have no idea at all who this Dani person is

 

[Dexter]

I do not want my horses out 24/7 ever!! One is a high laminitis risk the other a prolific fence jumper. Also I have no idea at all who this Dani person is

Mine are all high laminitis risks. They all live out 24/7 on a track. The stable doors are open and they dont choose to go in there, which for me says it all

 

[PurBee]

The ‘stimulation‘ Dani states her horse gets, which she thinks is all it needs is: walker, hand-grazing, hours of riding exercise, treadmill - all activities where the horse has no choice where to move. It’s always headcollared and is told by the handler what to do and where to go, or bitted-up and told by the rider what to do.

Where’s the freedom in ALL those hours of ’stimulation exercise’ for the horse?

The freedom for the horse to CHOOSE its own body movement?

The only freedom her set-up provides for her horse is which way to face in its stable. Which corner to poop in. When to lay down in the stable, when to stand up. Every other movement that horse makes outside of that box is enforced by the handler/rider.
It never gets ANY own choice freedom of movement, except in its stable.

I’m flabbergasted that’s considered humane treatment of a horse.

Very sad some can’t see it’s abuse, as their own wants from the horse eclipse the true needs of their horse.

 

[BaronSamedi]

The ‘stimulation‘ Dani states her horse gets, which she thinks is all it needs is: walker, hand-grazing, hours of riding exercise, treadmill - all activities where the horse has no choice where to move. It’s always headcollared and is told by the handler what to do and where to go, or bitted-up and told by the rider what to do.

Where’s the freedom in ALL those hours of ’stimulation exercise’ for the horse?

The freedom for the horse to CHOOSE its own body movement?

The only freedom her set-up provides for her horse is which way to face in its stable. Which corner to poop in. When to lay down in the stable, when to stand up. Every other movement that horse makes outside of that box is enforced by the handler/rider.
It never gets ANY own choice freedom of movement, except in its stable.

I’m flabbergasted that’s considered humane treatment of a horse.

Very sad some can’t see it’s abuse, as their own wants from the horse eclipse the true needs of their horse.

It's not abuse at all, there are far far worse things that some horses have to endure.

 

[PurBee]

Mine are all high laminitis risks. They all live out 24/7 on a track. The stable doors are open and they dont choose to go in there, which for me says it all

My mare, 10years prior to being with me, had been stabled, locked in, at night. Turnout during the day. For 10 whole years. Same routine.

She came to me and i just happened to have 1 large barn but 2 horses, so decided they could both use it , share it, and i initially shut them in at night open/turnout during the day.....then after some weeks i decided to leave the door open onto large hardcore corral area so they could choose when to get shelter, have a sleep etc.
It works well.

One day a bad storm was forecast, so i was wondering what to do - lots of trees surround the barn/yard/grazing and have been blown down in previous storms. I thought shutting the barn doors, with open stable tops, would be best. Got both horses in the barn and as soon as the mare realised i was shutting the doors she bolted out of there. Refused to be shut in.

They never ‘get used’ to anything, even after 10 years of stabling she hates it when given free choice - they prefer freedom.

 

[SpeedyPony]

I don't really think it's fair to keep a horse in full time all year round. They have been bred as working animals, so I don't see it as a huge welfare issue if they're kept in and worked appropriately through the winter months, but what constitutes work has changed dramatically, they have been bred to work in the fields most of the day, or pull a cart/carry someone over long distances, so an hour or two in the school, or even a 3 hour hack, isn't catering to their breeding or their instincts.
That said, they do still have instincts and the same drive to socialise and mooch about under their own steam, so for me it wouldn't be ethical to keep them in full time all year round even when in proper, all day work. I'd also expect them to go out, even into a sand paddock if necessary, on their day off in the winter months.
Do injuries happen? Absolutely. But just because we can't see the mental injuries as clearly, doesn't mean the perpetually stabled horse is unharmed.
I might be biased as the owner of a pony that refuses to stable at all, and I've no doubt there are a handful that are quite the other way and prefer to spend most of their time stabled, but to me the risk of destroying an animal's spirit is just as concerning as the risk to their limbs.

 

[PurBee]

It's not abuse at all, there are far far worse things that some horses have to endure.

Just because there’s explicit abuse of horses in the world, doesnt mean that movement/freedom abuse isnt abusive.

 

[GTRJazz]

and what about ethics and morality? It isn’t ethical to deny horses their ability to display natural behaviours.

as for liability... that’s what insurance is for. While it would be highly disappointing to miss a class due to an injury, at some point even professionals have say “that’s horses”, else they should be concentrating on something mechanical, and not a living, breathing being which has needs and desires of its own.

To wrap them up in cotton wool, have them confined 24/7 except for structured exercise is abominable.

But the whole process of been ridden and kept as a Domestic Animal is not natural behavior for an Horse. There is no ideal solution for turn out It depends on the horses needs and what the owner can accommodate around work and family. Not going to a competition due to injury when you and your horse are at a high level could never be compensated for

 

[SpeedyPony]

But the whole process of been ridden and kept as a Domestic Animal is not natural behavior for an Horse. There is no ideal solution for turn out It depends on the horses needs and what the owner can accommodate around work and family. Not going to a competition due to injury when you and your horse are at a high level could never be compensated for

To look at that another way, it's not unheard of for horses with undiagnosed heart problems to drop dead during competitions. That comes under the heading of "sh** happens" as far as owners and competitors pockets are concerned, so why should field injuries be treated differently?