Thoughts on BD bringing in 20% rider weight guidance?

[JFTDWS]

The full guidelines are in a H&H article and do state that it is 20% of a horse in an appropriate BCS, and some vague acknowledgements about conformation etc.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...m_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com

 

[iknowmyvalue]

It’s got to start somewhere and definitely better than nothing. But also agree that the competence of the rider plays a part, surely a slightly heavier (within reason) but balanced rider is better than a lighter rider bouncing around all over the place?

I know I’m just on the cusp of being too heavy for Pepsi at the moment (well within 20%, but pretty much on 15% with tack/clothing) but actively working on reducing my weight (gained due to medication/health issues)

 

[TPO]

But also agree that the competence of the rider plays a part,

I don't buy this at all. Gravity is gravity. 18st is 18st and doesn't magically feel lighter because they're a superbly balanced rider; it just maybe doesn't feel any heavier (until they go up a gait).

A balanced rider WITHIN the 15% scope would feel better than an even lighter unbalanced rider, I'd accept that.

I'm so tired of the argument (not you IKMV) that a "heavy balanced rider" is better. No, too heavy is too heavy.

Just waiting for the argument about the mythical 18st weight lifter with no body fat ? it doesn't matter if its fat/bones/muscle that makes up the weight, what matters is the weight that the horse has to carry.

No one has the right to ride, it's a privilege. Horse welfare has to come first

Edited: spelling

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I don't buy this at all. Gravity is gravity. 18st is 18st and doesn't magically feel lighter because they're a superbly balanced rider; it just maybe doesn't feel any heavier (until they go up a gait).

A balanced rider WITHIN the 15% scope would feel better than an even lighter unbalanced rider, I'd accept that.

I'm so tired of the argument (not you IKMV) that a "heavy balanced rider" is better. No, too heavy is too heavy.

Just waiting for the argument about the mythical 18st weight lifter with no body fat ? it doesn't matter if its fat/bones/muscle that makes up the weight, what matters is the weight that the bore has to carry.

No one has the right to ride, it's a privilege. Horse welfare has to come first

Oh I fully agree, and I wouldn’t agree with any rider at all over 18-20% including tack.

But I’m thinking more the difference between 16/17% but balanced, and 13/14% unbalanced. obviously the ideal is all riders within 15%, but I’m not sure how practical that is on the professional circuit (which is a whole other debate…)

 

[Gloi]

Surely if a horse felt the rider was too heavy the quality of the gaits would suffer so it would lose marks and not move up the stages in dressage anyway. If it has good gaits and elevation it's not being bothered by the rider.

 

[TPO]

Oh I fully agree, and I wouldn’t agree with any rider at all over 18-20% including tack.

But I’m thinking more the difference between 16/17% but balanced, and 13/14% unbalanced. obviously the ideal is all riders within 15%, but I’m not sure how practical that is on the professional circuit (which is a whole other debate…)

Why is it not practical for pros? If anything would they not be easier to police than lardy me who never leaves my private yard?

 

[Ossy2]

Surely if a horse felt the rider was too heavy the quality of the gaits would suffer so it would lose marks and not move up the stages in dressage anyway. If it has good gaits and elevation it's not being bothered by the rider.

Yes I assume it would, but that doesn’t seem to stop people continuing to try. And even if the horse doesn’t progress is it fair on the horse to keep trying.

 

[TPO]

Surely if a horse felt the rider was too heavy the quality of the gaits would suffer so it would lose marks and not move up the stages in dressage anyway. If it has good gaits and elevation it's not being bothered by the rider.

An "influencer" mentioned in a couple of different threads on here is overweight and so is her horse. The horse is lame under saddle. Allegedly she posted that the vet couldn't find any issues and she's commented how much better the horse is moving after time off. The penny did not drop and she got straight back on after the time off.

So relying on owner/riders like that to see the obvious isn't a reliable method.

I mean if people self policed there would never have been a need for studies on the pain inflicted by too heavy riders or affiliated bodies to bring in weight related rules?

Edited: spelling/autocorrect

 

[saddlesore]

It would be a minefield to ‘police’ yet I agree with the sentiment. I have no clue how to ‘do maths’ but I weigh around 8st and have a 15hh h/w cob who’s fit and nearly his ideal weight (??) and I have literally NO CLUE where I come in the % scale with tack etc. I imagine for lots of people we’re genuinely clueless ourselves, never mind the event organisers ?‍

 

[ponynutz]

I would be slightly careful about naming names or instagram names.

I'm inclined to agree but wouldn't want anyone getting upset. Don't want to censor anyone obviously so feel free to ignore this but just my 2pence

 

[ycbm]

The argument about whether a better rider can be heavier is a bit fruitless. If a limit is going to be set, then there has to be a fixed line set somewhere. It can't be left up to the judgement of a steward whether someone is a good enough rider to ride at 18% rather than 15%, there has to be a fixed rule for everyone.
.

 

[ycbm]

I would be slightly careful about naming names or instagram names.

I'm inclined to agree but wouldn't want anyone getting upset. Don't want to censor anyone obviously so feel free to ignore this but just my 2pence

I think if someone sets themselves up as an influencer and takes payment in goods and services for doing it, then it is right to point out if there are welfare issues with their horses.
.

 

[ycbm]

Surely if a horse felt the rider was too heavy the quality of the gaits would suffer so it would lose marks and not move up the stages in dressage anyway. If it has good gaits and elevation it's not being bothered by the rider.

The problem there is that nobody knows if the horse scoring 65 or 70 would be capable of 70 of 75 under a lighter rider.
.

 

[webble]

It's probably important to be clear that you mean (I hope) blog.of.a.cob, as there's another blog of cob on IG who has what looks to be a young connie type, for whom that rider appears to be appropriately sized.

I can't imagine the former will be anywhere near meeting the 20% guideline for her horses, and I would certainly hope that BD will use the rule to pull up a combination like that.

I found both, one of them was really upsetting, poor ponies

 

[sbloom]

Surely if a horse felt the rider was too heavy the quality of the gaits would suffer so it would lose marks and not move up the stages in dressage anyway. If it has good gaits and elevation it's not being bothered by the rider.

There starts the debate about whether the gaits we see in the dressage arenas are correct and healthy. I would say a rider has to be significantly heavy for it to show in the gaits enough to be deemed an issue, however you define correct. Horses are the best maskers/compensators around, and I see a LOT of compensation in the ring.

Weight is indeed weight, but I would say that peak pressures may be lower under a heavier, well balanced rider but average pressures would be lower under a lighter but less balanced rider.

 

[TheHairyOne]

You know what, I think this is a good thing.

Im not sure it will ever get to the point of actually being policed in full with scales and weighing horses, but it allows judges/show officials to be able to raise concerns about combinations that look totally 'out of proportion' for lack of a better way of describing it.

With no rule at all in place there was zero that could be said (unless the horse was actually lame) but now it opens the door to questions being allowed to be asked. I suspect with it being 20% its only going to catch the real outliers.

Dont forget that many unaffliated comps also run to BD rules, and whilst ive not seen any combos locally out at BD that would raise eyebrows, there have certainly been a few unaffliated.

 

[MissTyc]

Just off the back of this thread and some posts about a different "influencer".

It might not be a bad thing to introduce some body condition scoring rules for horses alongside the rider's weight.

E.g. if the horse is obese it'll weigh more and to some people that increases the 15/20% parameters.

If J. Bloggs is a tad overweight but rocks up with a "should be 550kg" 750kg horse the maths would have them ticking the boxes...

Exactly what I was thinking. My coblet, hunting fit, weighs 430kg. Same coblet coming into work after an injury was 580kg - both on veterinary scales. Looked like a different horse! Even in his fat form, he could easily have bimbled around a Prelim or an easy Novice. Fit, he turns heads at Elementary and working to progress beyond.

 

[Kat]

An "influencer" mentioned in a couple of different threads on here is overweight and so is her horse. The horse is lame under saddle. Allegedly she posted that the vet couldn't find any issues and she's commented how much better the horse is moving after time off. The penny did not drop and she got straight back on after the time off.

So relying on owner/riders like that to see the obvious isn't a reliable method.

I mean if people self policed there would never have been a need for studies on the pain inflicted by too heavy riders or affiliated bodies to bring in weight related rules?

Edited: spelling/autocorrect

I know who you mean. It is heartbreaking to see and I am really disappointed in the brands and other accounts associated with her.

Disappointing that the vet won't say anything too.

 

[follysienna]

It would be a minefield to ‘police’ yet I agree with the sentiment. I have no clue how to ‘do maths’ but I weigh around 8st and have a 15hh h/w cob who’s fit and nearly his ideal weight (??) and I have literally NO CLUE where I come in the % scale with tack etc. I imagine for lots of people we’re genuinely clueless ourselves, never mind the event organisers ?‍

If anyone does need help with the maths, you can use Google. If you know the weight of your horse, you can type into the Google search bar for example 20% of 500kg and it will give you the answer. Then you can Google a weight converter and change the kg into stone. Really useful for quick maths ?

 

[scats]

I know who you mean. It is heartbreaking to see and I am really disappointed in the brands and other accounts associated with her.

Disappointing that the vet won't say anything too.

I think people are so worried that they are going to be labelled as ‘fat shaming’, that it’s easier for them not to confront this issue. Any brands sponsoring the mentioned riders, I personally won’t touch. I strongly believe that the welfare of the horse comes before our own desire to ride or whatever ‘right’ we feel we have to do things to help our mental health. Riding a horse is a privilege and just because a horse doesn’t appear to be buckling under someone’s weight, does not mean that it isn’t having an impact on them.

 

[Lady Jane]

Just off the back of this thread and some posts about a different "influencer".

It might not be a bad thing to introduce some body condition scoring rules for horses alongside the rider's weight.

E.g. if the horse is obese it'll weigh more and to some people that increases the 15/20% parameters.

If J. Bloggs is a tad overweight but rocks up with a "should be 550kg" 750kg horse the maths would have them ticking the boxes...

I understood it is 20% based on a 'good' condition score so if your horse is very fat they wouldn't allow the full 20%

 

[Lady Jane]

The irony of all this is I rarely see people who I think are too heavy for their horses at BD. But unaffiliated dressage is another matter. Are organisers at UAD shows really going to do anything? I am in support but as others think 20% is an astonishing amount to expect a horse to carry although the type of work they are expected to do makes a difference. High level dressage compared to a light hack?

 

[Lady Jane]

Link to the BD wording, page 2: https://www.britishdressage.co.uk/media/6777/bd-rule-synopsis-2023.pdf

This is a good bit, will rule lots of us out!
"The rider should be proportionate to their horse, with the core stability, suppleness, and fitness necessary to achieve a harmonious way of going."

 

[mariew]

I understood it is 20% based on a 'good' condition score so if your horse is very fat they wouldn't allow the full 20%

If we are talking competition venues policing horse welfare (which I'm guessing this is really boils down to?) Then there are so many other things they should also be able to pull people up on. Obese horses, aggressive riding, inappropriate handling etc. But maybe they already do that, I appreciate it's maybe harder to set guidelines on.

The only thing I think could be done is to have every horse and rider weigh in with tack and bodyscore as part of registering to make it fair. A local riding school discovered after covid that a lot of people underestimated their weights by a stone or two, which makes a big difference to a normal blokes weight and riding school weight limits!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think it’s great. I also think the wording is about as sensitive as you can be without losing the point. It’s guidance and, as with most of dressage, there will be subjective interpretation of the rules.

I am sure that if core stability and balance is not perfect but is not preventing the horse from achieving a natural and humane way of going, no one is going to be booted out.

I think 15% is ideal but 20% including tack, with a horse in ‘good’ condition should rule out critical welfare issues.

Hopefully more people take note of this, and look at themselves.

And this is coming from someone who is currently 73kg instead of their usual 63kg land therefore hasn’t ridden their 450kg horse since May, so I know how hard it is when the rule applies to you.

 

[Goldie's mum]

Id say deliberate cruelty is very rare but people are generally bigger than they were a generation ago. If the issue is widely discussed there will be well-meaning people who realise for the first time that they are damaging their horse. I hope other disciplines follow this lead. You have to start somewhere & higher levels of competition have a responsibility to set a standard. There will always be differing opinions on the exact % used and ways of enforcing it but just saying that there is a limit will make a huge difference.

 

[Goldenstar]

Any one ever driven a lorry with a horse throwing itself about , driven one with a heavy large horse standing still that’s what it’s like for a horse balancing when ridden.
Its a separate but linked issue to riders weight .
I have seriously done the thing where you buy clothes a size or two too big with my horse
I don’t need a full up 16.3 ID it does make Christmas less of a worry .
The weight thing is a very difficult subject for BD to dip it’s toes in ,going back to my youth there was lots of unhealthy stuff going on with being slim for dressage /riding its a very very sensitive thing .
In our efforts to try and prevent the young being drawn onto the hell of eating disorders we have normalised being far to fat, Its a many faceted serious problem facing this country .
We need to try to find ways to communicate that it’s being the healthy weight that matters too thin too light and too heavy are bad for you .

I am glad BD have dipped their toe in this for the horses sake .
Next they need to help accredited trainers with resource around the best way to approach broaching this thorny issue with clients .
Obese horses at competitions is another thing you do see and it’s very wrong as well.

No body wants an unpleasant fat shaming atmosphere so I think this level approach is a the right for BD to dip its toe in the water .
By saying it and at 20% it’s achievable without much work for most so well done BD .

 

[scats]

I don’t know if anyone saw the issue in the week on the Horzehoods FB page. A few days previously they had shown an advert for some riding tights/leggings modelled by a curvier lady. Some body commented that they felt that by doing this, brands were normalising being overweight. I didn’t actually see the original comment at the time (though I went back and found it) but Horsehoodz blocked the person and posted about how they wouldn’t accept this type of behaviour. There were hundreds of comments in support of the brand and model and tearing a strip off the original poster.

I’m not saying what the original poster did was right or wrong, but she obviously felt strongly enough to comment on it. This model wasn’t sat on a horse at the time of the picture, so there was no welfare issue from that side of things, but perhaps we are getting to the point that we no longer recognise what a healthy weight is in a person. It’s apparent in the dog and horse world that owners struggle to recognise a healthy animal anymore. A fit and healthy horse is often seen as underweight by many.
I completely recognise the need for brands to be inclusive and make clothes for larger people, and that includes equestrian brands, but by doing that, are we actually saying that it’s ok to ride horses no matter what size you are?

 

[Tiddlypom]

These two pics are quite revealing. Me in the summer after I'd let my weight balloon back up again, and me 5 months later when 2 stone lighter (I've since lost another half stone). Same brand of size 14 jodhs. I'm 5'10".

It's my own saddle in both pics, and it is certainly easier to fit in the saddle with less blubber. Thinner pic was first time back in saddle after Covid bout 2, so I was rather wobbly, but by heck it felt good.

I'd have been at 16.2% on my own mare in the first pic, and 14.1% in the second.

 

[Goldie's mum]

.. by doing that, are we actually saying that it’s ok to ride horses no matter what size you are?

Obesity and weight are not the same thing at all. An obese person who looks very fat in the advert you describe could be fine to ride if they are short enough that their weight suits their horse.