conniegirl
Well-Known Member
My 13.2hh welsh section c is built like a tank, fit and lean he weighs 420kg. At the moment he is fat and out of work (because I’m too fat to ride him) and weighs 480kg. Both on vet scales.
Thoughts on BD bringing in 20% rider weight guidance?
- Thread starter Ali27
- Start date
My 13.2hh welsh section c is built like a tank, fit and lean he weighs 420kg. At the moment he is fat and out of work (because I’m too fat to ride him) and weighs 480kg. Both on vet scales.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I agree that it is normalised, not just in adults, but also in children, and animals too.
I would never want to see people shamed for their size, but I do believe that when it comes to our dependents, be them our children or our animals, we have a duty to give them an appropriate diet and enough movement to protect their health.
Tyanilth
Member
Other way to look at it - 20 baked bean tins in a well packed Army backpack and you could probably walk a mile with limited problems. Same 20 tins in a dustbin bag slung lopsided over one shoulder and you’d be lucky to get 50 yards without pulling a muscle. But either way, ten baked bean cans would be easier
iknowmyvalue
Well-Known Member
These are the kind of riders I was thinking of when I wrote my post. Because a lean, fit event horse, unless very tall, I’d assume would mean he’d fall >15%
My 15.3hh sporty type eventer was about 490kg when he was BCS 4, and 545kg when BCS 5 (both on weighbridge)
He usually sits about BCS 4.5 when fully fit and competing regularly so would estimate his average weight around 520kg…
TPO
Fly paper for freaks 🍀
I didn't but thanks for taking the time to check in with me.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I'd like to add to my point about people not really being able to guess human weights outside of their own experiences, I'm not sure I'd be great at guessing horse weights either, prob fine with native ponies. . But actually even then I'm not sure I've guessed many right when they've actually been on a scale. I suspect we all get stuck on about 500kg when it could prob be 100 either way.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
If should me done on horse condition score 3/5 I think. And for every 10kg extra that the horse is carrying above that weight, reduce the rider allowance by x? kg for the effects on the joints. Likewise, if the horse is super fit and lean, then that allows the rider to be heavier because the horse is not carrying its own weight.
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iknowmyvalue
Well-Known Member
Yes, that would make sense (though was going on a 1-9 BCS in post above, so BCS 4 would be the equivalent to 3/5)
Kat
Well-Known Member
Mine has weighed between 490kg and 530kg depending upon fitness and time of year. Most often around 520kg. She's 15.3hh and a bit of a poor doer, and would have been hunting fit for some of those occasions but not 5* event fit.
rara007
Well-Known Member
My 15.2 is pretty sporty but still a chunk compared to the real athletic eventers. He's 480kg and 158cm.
Rio Olympics the horses flying in the average eventer was 515kg and dressage horse 630kg.
Rio Olympics the horses flying in the average eventer was 515kg and dressage horse 630kg.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I was pretty good at guess the weight when a livery yard had the weighbridge guys out.
My Ardennes (14.1) and a 17.2 showjumper both weighed in at 640kg. One of them could only take a 16" saddle though. The TBs were coming in between 450-550 and most of the Irish draft types over 600.
There's plenty of options for most people of a reasonable weight - but if you're of a heavier build then some of the more petite horses need to be left in a stable.
My Ardennes (14.1) and a 17.2 showjumper both weighed in at 640kg. One of them could only take a 16" saddle though. The TBs were coming in between 450-550 and most of the Irish draft types over 600.
There's plenty of options for most people of a reasonable weight - but if you're of a heavier build then some of the more petite horses need to be left in a stable.
mariew
Well-Known Member
47209"]My 15.2 is pretty sporty but still a chunk compared to the real athletic eventers. He's 480kg and 158cm.
Rio Olympics the horses flying in the average eventer was 515kg and dressage horse 630kg.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, if there was a 15% limit, that would possibly take out a lot of the male eventers as able to compete with max weight being just over 77kg.
Rio Olympics the horses flying in the average eventer was 515kg and dressage horse 630kg.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, if there was a 15% limit, that would possibly take out a lot of the male eventers as able to compete with max weight being just over 77kg.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Interesting, if there was a 15% limit, that would possibly take out a lot of the male eventers as able to compete with max weight being just over 77kg.[/QUOTE]
As I've said above, for horses which are high level event fit, below condition score 3/5 their own lower body weight should count to increase the allowance for the rider.
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mariew
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree on the health welfare.
I guess my point is you can't always tell how heavy someone is and I suspect a lot would underestimate their weight with tack. And misjudge a horse's weight too. So rather than walking around and pulling individual people in based on who people think look heavier than they should be, everyone's horse and themselves should be weighed in. Including kids and ponies.
Otherwise you are kind of fat shaming as you would be using your visual perception of who is heavy or not based on a visual guess of horses weight (my old horse would was 25% heavier than the weight tape and vets guessed on a bridge when she was fit).
mini_b
Well-Known Member
There is a post on the ahem “rubbishdressageunite” Facebook group that I suspect has been spurred on by the new BD rule.
Cognitive dissonance?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1415869352100510/permalink/1881788508841923/
Cognitive dissonance?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1415869352100510/permalink/1881788508841923/
TPO
Fly paper for freaks 🍀
Thankfully not a member of any of those types of pages but fully agree with cognitive dissonance!
Kat
Well-Known Member
I had to join the group to look but the responses really illustrate the problem.
On the one hand there are pretty normal older women who are a bit overweight but not likely to be too heavy for their horse who want to see people like them represented in the media. Who need a bit of body positivity to help them accept their changing body.
On the other hand there are exactly the people who this rule is aimed at who don't see that they are part of the problem.
Really difficult to deal with the later without making the former group feel even more dreadful.
scats
Well-Known Member
Just had a look at that post on the group and it didn’t take me long to find someone who is clearly very overweight talking about how they were stopped in a test and it made them feel awful and nobody should judge because it’s so hard and none of their friends think they are too heavy….
It perfectly explains why we are in this situation, with BD having to bring in these rules. People won’t take responsibility for themselves because they think their right to enjoyment comes before that of an animals right to comfort.
I would not like to be a judge at the moment!
It perfectly explains why we are in this situation, with BD having to bring in these rules. People won’t take responsibility for themselves because they think their right to enjoyment comes before that of an animals right to comfort.
I would not like to be a judge at the moment!
mariew
Well-Known Member
Another reason to why there needs to be weigh ins so this issue can be tackled discreetly at registration before it even gets to someone having to be told part way into a test they are too big for their horse. It would also remove the pressure on judges having to make a judgement call which is only ever going to catch the extreme cases.
reynold
Well-Known Member
The report I read in H&H wasn't just regarding weight. It also mentioned the requirement for the rider to be 'balanced' and 'in proportion to the horse'.
Under those conditions a tall, think, light rider on a pony could also be eliminated, yet pose no threat to the welfare of the horse.
This is a whole can of worms and as above I wouldn't want to be a judge or a steward with these new rules coming in.
Under those conditions a tall, think, light rider on a pony could also be eliminated, yet pose no threat to the welfare of the horse.
This is a whole can of worms and as above I wouldn't want to be a judge or a steward with these new rules coming in.
rara007
Well-Known Member
And that’s without tack so 15% with body protector etc is then about 62kg. I expect that’s about average woman, at that elite level eventing? Some will be heavier as they’re tall but they’re undoubtedly fit.
It’s no co-incidence jockeys are super light, horses perform best with lighter loads.
I still don’t think it’s unreasonable to compete at BD at or just under 20%. We’re aiming for a 20m circle in trot, with the odd half pass when we’re feeling flash, not physical extremes of performance. Though that’s another situation, and of course the top levels are aiming for much more…! So often the larger horses have soundness issues and short careers, plus how many are heavier vs just fatter. It’s far from black and white. But, not many combos over 20% are going to be harmonious and performing well.
Social licensing means we need guidelines, I think this is the best they can do. I do worry about the position the judges are being put in. It’s not much money to judge at the levels it’s most likely to be an issue for, and they’ll often be at venues as they only person from BD/the show official there. It’s a lot of pressure to call someone up on being too out of proportion, vs slaughtering the marks like they would do with ‘irregular steps’ vs lameness. My thumbnails are mainly at BD, very low levels ‘first rounds’ at around the 20% mark, close enough that coat, boots and girth choice would impact it. Without ‘stuff’ they’re 16.3-16.6%. If I couldn’t keep them fit without riding or my main sport was bd, I’d need and want bigger.
I do wonder if that long sentence is distracting and bordering on Tricky. Who’s going to call out a slim but stiff or weak rider. There’s a whole range of abilities, most of whom are trying their best and not causing an issue, but don’t sit to an extension like Lottie or Charlotte. And even they have people debating their harmony!
It’s no co-incidence jockeys are super light, horses perform best with lighter loads.
I still don’t think it’s unreasonable to compete at BD at or just under 20%. We’re aiming for a 20m circle in trot, with the odd half pass when we’re feeling flash, not physical extremes of performance. Though that’s another situation, and of course the top levels are aiming for much more…! So often the larger horses have soundness issues and short careers, plus how many are heavier vs just fatter. It’s far from black and white. But, not many combos over 20% are going to be harmonious and performing well.
Social licensing means we need guidelines, I think this is the best they can do. I do worry about the position the judges are being put in. It’s not much money to judge at the levels it’s most likely to be an issue for, and they’ll often be at venues as they only person from BD/the show official there. It’s a lot of pressure to call someone up on being too out of proportion, vs slaughtering the marks like they would do with ‘irregular steps’ vs lameness. My thumbnails are mainly at BD, very low levels ‘first rounds’ at around the 20% mark, close enough that coat, boots and girth choice would impact it. Without ‘stuff’ they’re 16.3-16.6%. If I couldn’t keep them fit without riding or my main sport was bd, I’d need and want bigger.
I do wonder if that long sentence is distracting and bordering on Tricky. Who’s going to call out a slim but stiff or weak rider. There’s a whole range of abilities, most of whom are trying their best and not causing an issue, but don’t sit to an extension like Lottie or Charlotte. And even they have people debating their harmony!
AntiPuck
Well-Known Member
I assumed that this part of it was more aimed at riders who are too large for their saddles/horse's backs - which is separate to weight, although probably usually correlated with it.
Kat
Well-Known Member
It really highlights that careful proceedures should be in place. If that was a teenager with complex issues around weight and food it could be disastrous.
I think that's why having some guidance is helpful to hopefully avoid people putting themselves in the position of needing to stopped.
I agree that the "ignore them Hun" type responses are unhelpful though. If a dressage judge thought the horse was struggling maybe it is time to get on the scales and to then have an honest and open discussion with your vet, instructor and physio.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I went to a BD competition and in the warm up was an obese rider on a fine WB horse that was really struggling. She tried to canter, thumped on the horses back which then bucked so she crashed onto the back some more, smacked the horse which then bucked again and cycle repeated. No steward or judge would do anything and frankly I was appalled at it. How the rider thought she was suitable I don't know as the horse was physically struggling, that rule would've really helped!
My horses are all body condition 3/5 and are a 16hh maxi cob at 600kg, 16hh PRE x TB at 610kg. 15.1 PRE at 500kg. I am 62kg so fit in the 15% of all of them.
My horses are all body condition 3/5 and are a 16hh maxi cob at 600kg, 16hh PRE x TB at 610kg. 15.1 PRE at 500kg. I am 62kg so fit in the 15% of all of them.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I have found that everyone who argues against weight limits for riding horses is themselves of a weight that is in or over the top end of the proposed limits (or emotionally close to a rider who is).
When a scientist of 10st tells me that 20% does no harm, I will listen. Until then, my limit stays at 15%
Please note that the post refers to weight, not fat.
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doodle
Well-Known Member
I think you are 100% correct there ybcm. The people who are within the 15/20 have no issue. But it is the heavier person who may not like it. Numbers are a fact. You are the weight you are and horses can only carry so much.
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LadyGascoyne
Still Fig-uring it out...
I had a pro dressage coach tell me I was fine to ride Mim a couple of times a week, at 73kg without tack. I am 5’8 so that’s very high “normal” in terms of BMI but not technically overweight although it’s overweight for me, with my usual frame and my usual level of fitness.
Mim is just about 15hh and 80% Arab. She is built very short and strong and takes the leg really well. I think I would have looked deceptively “ok” on her because I don’t look very overweight, and I look in balance.
I could never consider it ok to ride her though, as I simply weigh too much regardless of how we look.
Mim is just about 15hh and 80% Arab. She is built very short and strong and takes the leg really well. I think I would have looked deceptively “ok” on her because I don’t look very overweight, and I look in balance.
I could never consider it ok to ride her though, as I simply weigh too much regardless of how we look.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
There is a 2 stone difference in my weight in the two photos that I posted earlier of me on a mechanical horse. I'm clearly overweight in the first photo.
If I was to ride my 16.1hh IDx at 20% inc clothing and tack, that would be me weighing another 3.5 stone than I already am in the overweight photo ?.
I can rock 17 stone+ heavier weights without looking hugely fat than the vast majority of females. I am tall, muscular and genuinely have a big frame with man sized hands, feet and head. But no way would I ethically feel it ok to subject a horse to carrying that weight.
I'm afraid that I agree that it is those who are pushing the weight boundaries themselves who want 20% to be acceptable.
Am I smug about my recent weight loss? No, I am not. I grafted at it, and I know full well that it is always going to be a challenge for me to keep in the mid point of the healthy weight range.
If I was to ride my 16.1hh IDx at 20% inc clothing and tack, that would be me weighing another 3.5 stone than I already am in the overweight photo ?.
I can rock 17 stone+ heavier weights without looking hugely fat than the vast majority of females. I am tall, muscular and genuinely have a big frame with man sized hands, feet and head. But no way would I ethically feel it ok to subject a horse to carrying that weight.
I'm afraid that I agree that it is those who are pushing the weight boundaries themselves who want 20% to be acceptable.
Am I smug about my recent weight loss? No, I am not. I grafted at it, and I know full well that it is always going to be a challenge for me to keep in the mid point of the healthy weight range.
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Winters100
Well-Known Member
I just don't know why this is seen as fat shaming. No one is making a judgement about the person based upon their muscle, fat or height, just saying that if they appear that they may possibly be too heavy for the horse, for any one of those reasons, then it should be checked. Is it 'height shaming' if someone who is tall gets checked? Would we think it was fat shaming if a fairground ride had a maximum safe limit of 70kg and the staff told someone who looked to be around 100kg to either not ride, or to step on some scales to check that it was safe to do so? If you, or your child, have issues around this then you can choose to either ride a horse for which you are clearly an appropriate weight, or choose not to ride. I totally get that some people may find it uncomfortable, but so do the horses who have no choice in the matter, and allowing people to 'self police' has clearly not worked.
I also believe that, if we speak specifically about body fat, then this insistence that any type of discussion is 'fat shaming' is counter productive. It is treating managing health, and making adjustments when necessary, as if it is something shameful, not to be spoken about, rather than a normal part of life for pretty much everyone. I am not suggesting that it is a discussion to be had with strangers, but among family and close friends I simply cannot see that it is 'shaming' to say yes, I want my weight to be x kg, but I have a tough time achieving and maintaining that. As a 'good doer' myself I can say that I have no problem being told that maybe I should cut back a little, and it helps me to maintain my weight to a level where I am able to do the things that I enjoy.
teapot
Well-Known Member
I think it could also also catch out those who are slim but tall. I'm around 80kgs but wouldn't necessarily look it to the average eye because of my height.