To hard to accecpt ????

[Queenbee]

This thread (im sorry op) just reads to me like a car crash. I'm all for 'live and let live' and also all for a no pressure approach where folks set their horses up to succeed etc, but some very serious alarm bells are sounding to me. Personally I've always approach a horse with the attitude that if I die, or for whatever reason should have to part with my horses they should have a fully rounded education so they can move to a new home and be ok. This means, for example, that if I want to keep my horse unclipped, un stabled, and bitless, he would still as part of his education learn how to behave when clipped, learn to stable and ride in a bit, same goes for commands, even if I wanted to waggle sticks and fingers at my horse, it would still learn traditional commands, so that any stranger would be able to safely be around my horse whatever the circumstances. I certainly never would allow my horse to be the boss of me!! That is just so incredibly dangerous and totally unfair on the horse. Horses behave far better when they know what is expected of them, have set rules and boundaries and someone to look to for guidance, you put this role in the hands of the horse and you've got a serious problem waiting to happen in my opinion. I would not trust such a horse around my children, no matter how foot perfect he seems to be, I would never advocate children waving sticks around my horse, I certainly wouldn't want to take on such a horse and try to unpick its brain for it.


It's horses like these that while the owner crows about how wonderfully behaved they are - other people look on and thing what terrible manners the horse possesses. :/

 

[blitznbobs]

I guess Darwin was right...

 

[zaminda]

I would say if other people ever have to handle your horse, or go in the field with him to retrieve their horse then it is their business. If you are getting a lot of grief from people, then maybe there is a problem.
I will say this though, if my mare refused to go on the lorry, I would be looking at there being a problem on the lorry, she has always raced up the ramp, and I do trust her instinct. I think that is being in tune with your horse though, not allowing them to be the boss or move you out of their personal space, that way simply lies danger.

 

[Arizahn]

I am extremely strict with mine. He still seems happy to see me. He also respects my personal space, and that of others. A very nice animal to work around. I have no inclination to place the burden of responsibility on him, that is my job.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I guess Darwin was right...

OMG I just lost my coffee

 

[jeeve]

Of course it is ok - I know others that work like this, it is your horse, your choice

 

[JLD]

Just because I don't make my horse do anything doesn't mean we do nothing ! ;-)

It just makes him feel more secure in trying/allowing me to do new things . Imagine you were asked to do something that you were generally scared of . Would you be more confident knowing that at any point you can say '' stop , I am scared lets go back '' ?

As far as napping , he doesn't nap at all . =)

Not read all the replies but was of the leave everyone to their own thought until I read this - I have anxiety issues and actually - no - if I was doing something I didn't want to do and knew I could back out at any time I would never overcome my anxiety in doing it I think this would make me feel worse in the long term not better.I suddenly felt a bit sorry for the horse. I guess it's like children where without kind but firm boundaries they feel quite scared and rudderless.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

People or horses exceed at very little in life if they never learn to move outside their comfort zones. And some things to me sound more like what you think you will achieve rather than what you're actually doing with them. Sorry but reading what you right that's what I get. Like the person at my barn that comes in with stories about how she handles all sorts of horses on her job. Ones the staff are too scared to handle. Yet my husband more often than not has to bring her horse in from the field. At 11 her horse walks all over her and she can't handle one side of him in the easiest of situations. Yet she goes somewhere else and is insta horseman.

You can do what you like but if you jeoprodize the saftey of others they won't be too happy. And who could blame them.

Terri

 

[gwniver]

Not read all the replies but was of the leave everyone to their own thought until I read this - I have anxiety issues and actually - no - if I was doing something I didn't want to do and knew I could back out at any time I would never overcome my anxiety in doing it I think this would make me feel worse in the long term not better.I suddenly felt a bit sorry for the horse. I guess it's like children where without kind but firm boundaries they feel quite scared and rudderless.

Sorry to point this out but - You have an anxiety problem .... horses don't

AND I REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN SO LISTEN !!!!! NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING IS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!


Also , we never go far outside his comfort zone . So his comfort zone slowly expands until he has ''conquered '' the whole area WITHOUT having to be booted or pulled in the mouth every 5 mins

 

[PolarSkye]

Sorry to point this out but - You have an anxiety problem .... horses don't

So no horse is ever anxious ever? Some horses are not naturally more anxious than others? If you honestly believe either of these statements, you haven't met many horses and you certainly haven't met mine.

AND I REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN SO LISTEN !!!!! NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING IS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!

First - stop shouting. Second - the two are inextricably linked. Boundaries include insisting that a horse do something it doesn't want to - often for its own good - someone above used a very good example of letting a vet perform some kind of procedure. It isn't about domination, it's about leadership - "yes, I know X or Y scares you, but you need to listen to me right now and do as you are told."

Also , we never go far outside his comfort zone . So his comfort zone slowly expands until he has ''conquered '' the whole area WITHOUT having to be booted or pulled in the mouth every 5 mins

Why, oh why, do you feel that people who DO set up strong boundaries with their horses do it by booting, pulling, beating, etc.? It just isn't true!

P

 

[ribbons]

Whatever you say, you clearly have very little experience of horses generally. Horses most certainly do suffer with anxiety problems. Usually caused by humans putting them in situations where by they have to make decisions that would naturally be made for them, in the wild by the herd leader, in domestication by the human.
Your horse will either become hugely anxious or totally dominant, depending on his personality. Either will end badly.
Sometimes an overly anxious horse is more dangerous than a confident dominant one, but to be honest, you should be ashamed of yourself, allowing either situation to develop, and believe me it will. We here, will never know because I doubt you'll admit it here when a serious accident happens.
Half a ton of horse being allowed to decide what happens, when it happens, and who is allowed in his space, and when he's allowed in your space, then introducing 2 very small children into that situation waving sticks !!!!!!!!
They're not even your children.
No wonder the other people on the yard are trying to make you see sense. I hope to god they don't give up and wait for the inevitable.
Well, when someone gets seriously hurt or killed, it will be entirely your fault.
How many experienced knowledgable people does it take, explaining why its wrong, before you realise the risks you are putting horse and human at risk.

 

[touchstone]

I also believe that discipline is important, I expect horses to be well mannered and this is all due to everyday handling and training. I don't overface horses, but expect them to develop and grow for their own benefit, a horse that refuses to do something reasonable when asked is an accident waiting to happen and it is also putting the horse at risk in the future if he needs to be rehomed. Discipline is as much for the horse's benefit as the owners.

Discipline does not mean beating or hitting,I think this chap sums it up pretty well, (especially from about 6 minutes on)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me8jG05rPnk

 

[Swirlymurphy]

Speaking as the owner of a highly-anxious and highly intelligent exracehorse, I can tell you that we don't deal with his anxiety by letting him stay in his comfort zone and never telling him what he can/cannot do. If we did this, the problem would escalate massively - he is big and young and would become dangerous.

No, we deal with his anxiety by being firm, by having rules and insisting that he respects them. He will still get a pat to reassure him but we insist on him abiding by our rules. An examination at the vets last week when he found standing in the clinic room to be incredibly stressful and he didn't listen to us very well, taught me that we have more work to do - it is an ongoing and never-ending journey.

By never making him do what he doesn't want to do we would end up in serious trouble.

 

[PolarSkye]

As far as napping , he doesn't nap at all . =)

So what's your definition of "napping" . . . ?

To me, refusing to do something/go where you want him to go (e.g., through a puddle) is napping. Perhaps you have a different definition?

Also, no'one here is saying that because you don't "make" your horse do something he doesn't want to do that means you do nothing with him . . . what they are saying is that the things you do do with him ("playing," waving sticks around, letting him determine whether or not he wants you in his space, etc.) won't be doing him (or you) any favours in the long run.

I'm all for engaging with my horse and I certainly don't want him to become an automaton (I bought a horse with a lively, playful personality for a reason) - however, I want him and me to be safe - around each other and around anyone else we may share space with - at shows, on the yard, in the field, out and about. Perhaps the word "boundaries" is what irks you - how about "manners" instead? Big, prey animals like horses who are hard-wired to run first and look back - or kick out, etc., need to be taught manners so that handling them and being around them is (relatively) safe.

P

 

[Landcruiser]

OP, has anyone ever made you do what you don't want to do?

 

[blitznbobs]

I have a v young horse - that is unhandled -she doesn't want to be touched 3days ago she didn't want me to put her headcollar on, (I have put her headcollar on and off about 150 times now and she is ok with it) and tbh she doesn't want to be in a field or in a stable - with your methods shed still be the nervous wreck that arrived... Now she understands that a headcollar is ok and the field and stable are safe as well... If I hadn't made her do something she didn't want to do she'd still be on the wagon (she didn't want to get off)... I haven't hit this horse once, or raised my voice I have been firm in my control and rewarded the behaviour I want - it's not a miraculous change but there is a change ... She is not a safe horse ATM but without firm handling she never would be...

Eta oh and treats make no difference - she doesn't understand what a treat is...

 

[JLD]

Sorry to point this out but - You have an anxiety problem .... horses don't

AND I REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN SO LISTEN !!!!! NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING IS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, if you are This rude to people I am not surprised they get fed up. You came on a public forum and are getting replies that you don't like so you are going off on one. You don't have to listen them, I actually sympathise with you have had horrible experiences on livery yards with people sticking their unsolicited opinions in my face, I was inexperienced and was happy to ask for and accept helpful advice but many others decided their way was best as well. Actually I don't have anxiety problems I have issues but have dealt with them. So perhaps you could read properly too and stop bring so aggressive. For an apparently passive non confrontational individual you are being foul. Get a grip. You believe your way is correct and you are entitled to that view - your horses, your way. That's fine.

 

[misskk88]

I tried to read most of this. but got lost amongst the many posts!

If I let my horse tell me what she did and didn't want to do, I would have an extremely overweight, donkey of a horse to ride! It has taken a lot of learning and training on both parts (including breaking my bad habits!) to make her a content and relaxed horse, but that has come from rules, love and time.

You only have to look at the relationship of horses who are turned out together- it is natural for one to be head of the herd. With my old gelding, he was bottom of the pile and so he took his confidence and attitude from me, he NEEDED me to be his mum. With my mare, she is top girl, and so to let her boss me around, I would find myself with a hard to handle, nasty horse. I would much rather be a firm, but calm and kind leader, than to have a nervous wreck of a horse in the case of my gelding (who now teaches beginners), or a bad tempered mare who was not safe for others.

Boundaries and a mututal respect are required, both for safety and happiness of horse and rider. I have seen horses that have had very little rules set for them, and amongst being hard (and sometimes dangerous) to handle, they are more often than not very insecure.

Saying that, there are different ways and means to set boundaries and rules, and as long as it does not include any cruel or inhumance methods (including aggression or force), then I don't see the issue. Just as people, we all have different ways of learning, depending on our personalities.

 

[Urban Horse]

Whatever you say, you clearly have very little experience of horses generally. Horses most certainly do suffer with anxiety problems. Usually caused by humans putting them in situations where by they have to make decisions that would naturally be made for them, in the wild by the herd leader, in domestication by the human.

That's fascinating... perhaps you might be able to answer a query. Firstly, what trains lead mares to make desicions about the herd and it's movements, and secondly why aren't lead mares stressed or anxious when they make those choices? If they aren't stressed, then why are other horses?

 

[Patterdale]

That's fascinating... perhaps you might be able to answer a query. Firstly, what trains lead mares to make desicions about the herd and it's movements, and secondly why aren't lead mares stressed or anxious when they make those choices? If they aren't stressed, then why are other horses?

Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality.

But you're right, herd/pack/group dynamics really are fascinating

 

[zaminda]

Urban Horse, I think its a bit like people from what I have seen with my own herd. Our lead mare is dominant, and confident, and one of the others is more anxious. This particular mare can be very anxious, and would run over the top of you in a blind panic without basic boundaries, and trusting the human not to put her in a dangerous situation.
Not everyone can be a leader, same with horses.

 

[Urban Horse]

You only have to look at the relationship of horses who are turned out together- it is natural for one to be head of the herd. With my old gelding, he was bottom of the pile and so he took his confidence and attitude from me, he NEEDED me to be his mum. With my mare, she is top girl, and so to let her boss me around, I would find myself with a hard to handle, nasty horse. I would much rather be a firm, but calm and kind leader, than to have a nervous wreck of a horse in the case of my gelding (who now teaches beginners), or a bad tempered mare who was not safe for others.

Boundaries and a mututal respect are required, both for safety and happiness of horse and rider. I have seen horses that have had very little rules set for them, and amongst being hard (and sometimes dangerous) to handle, they are more often than not very insecure.

I'd have to say that, given the restricted areas and limited food stocks, that domestic horses endure... it might be more than a little dangerous to draw parallels with the behaviour of both feral and wild horses.

When it comes to boundaries, my horses have none... they have been deliberately raised that way and they are the better for it. They hack and compete alongside 'traditionally' trained horses with no problems, are courteous, polite and respectful, giving far less problems than the other horses at the livery. Farriery is undertaken without us being in attendance, and when the elder mare suffered a mild colic the vet commented on how well behaved they were. As for being 'unsellable' if the need arose, well we've had so many offers for them.... largely due to their placid co-operative nature.

The way to get respect from a horse is not to demand it, but to give it... that way you can be sure that the respect given by the horse in return is real not forced, and that makes it all the sweeter.

 

[Urban Horse]

Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality.

But you're right, herd/pack/group dynamics really are fascinating

But, according to most studies, lead mares aren't dominant.... that's a mistake often made by humans who can't envisage a social system that's not based on our own power/position/rank society... a mistake that's sadly reinforced by some of the NH trainers who tell us we have to become the 'Alpha Mare'.

 

[Patterdale]

But, according to most studies, lead mares aren't dominant.... that's a mistake often made by humans who can't envisage a social system that's not based on our own power/position/rank society... a mistake that's sadly reinforced by some of the NH trainers who tell us we have to become the 'Alpha Mare'.

'Dominance' is not only defined by aggressive behaviour - to be dominant over another means only that you are above them in the social hierarchy. You are very correct however that a lot of NH trainers make the mistake you've mentioned.

 

[Auslander]

I could do with some advice. I asked my son to turn my horse out at about 4.30pm. Alf didn't want to go in the field - he wanted to eat the nice lush grass outside the field. Charlie was instructed to wait until Alf wanted to go in the field. It's now 9.30pm, and he's still waiting...

 

[JFTDWS]

I could do with some advice. I asked my son to turn my horse out at about 4.30pm. Alf didn't want to go in the field - he wanted to eat the nice lush grass outside the field. Charlie was instructed to wait until Alf wanted to go in the field. It's now 9.30pm, and he's still waiting...

*calls social services*

 

[Tiddlypom]

Your son is doing fine! Sometime in the next day or two Alf may choose to move through into the field. Make sure that your son knows that he must not nod off to sleep whilst he waits for this to happen, or he risks disappointing Alf if he is not ready for him.

You obviously have your horse, and your son, well trained .

 

[Fides]

I'm confused - has OP changed name?

 

[maccachic]

Maybe Op is just bad at explaining themselves - why don't they post a video of a situation.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think horses don't greatly like being in charge it's a dangerous thing leadership , best have an easy life and leave it to others .