To Stallion or not to Stallion...

[splashgirl45]

my friend had a stallion and he was kept in her yard and was treated as the same as all of the other horses apart from not being handled by novices. he also competed and was used as a stallion. he was a complete gentleman and never behaved in a stalliony way except when covering......but this was on her own yard where she was in charge of who did what etc........so my main concern would be the quality of the horse's life. will he get turn out, will he get plenty of ridden exercise and are you up to riding a horse who is well schooled in all of the tricks or will you be confusing him when you ride, this would apply to any horse not just a stallion. if you buy him could he stay at his current yard where he is obviously well settled.. if this owner is so in favour of you as an owner could you have him on loan with view to buy for a short period of time to make sure that you are a good fit for him....of course you may go to try him and find he is not what you are expecting so decision made...

 

[HedgePig]

are you up to riding a horse who is well schooled in all of the tricks or will you be confusing him when you ride,

Hi and thank you for your reply. This a pretty big part of my central concern. I just don't think I am a good enough technical rider for him. But others make a great point. If he is happy and healthy and social and loved, does he care that we aren't learning battle formations? I guess in my head I see him as something of a performance horse. Who doesn't want to own a Lamborghini (I know Italian not Spanish) but that doesn't mean I need to be willing to compete at Le Mans before I should own one. Equally no horse of mine has ever been allowed to be a princess. When its time to work, its time to work. But we look forward to our hacks and swims together too. I don't even know if this chap can hack. If he can't then we aren't a good fit and I won't be taking him. On the other end of the scale I don't want a happy hacker that gets put into a school and everyone rides. He is special. And his unique skills need to be built on and advanced. I just feel so stupid with all this.

 

[milliepops]

this is getting pretty multicultural between the spanish, french, italian and austrian

where do you anticipate swimming with this horse?

I really wouldn't overthink anything until you know first if you can find somewhere to keep it and second whether you like riding it.

 

[splashgirl45]

dont feel stupid, you are doing all the right things and are being cautious and finding out all of the negatives before you make a decision. what i meant about riding a horse who is well schooled is that they can get confused and upset if the rider is novice and keeps giving aids incorrectly. i dont know how advanced you are, but i am an ordinary rider with lots of knowledge but limited ability and have ridden some grand prix horses and needed lots of help to give the correct aid. as an example i used too much seat and leg when attempting to go into halt and i ended up with a lovely piaffe. luckily his rider was giving me a lesson and explained what i did wrong and her horse was very forgiving.. just because a horse can do all of the tricks doesnt mean he will be unhappy if he doesnt do them ... you just need to try him and see how you get on and then you will be able to make a decision. good luck, and if you get him we need pics please

 

[HedgePig]

I have just come off the phone to my local livery (a very large equestrian centre with an indoor arena) who say subject to a few practical questions, they would be willing to take a stallion. That's one big box checked...

 

[HedgePig]

this is getting pretty multicultural between the spanish, french, italian and austrian

where do you anticipate swimming with this horse?

I really wouldn't overthink anything until you know first if you can find somewhere to keep it and second whether you like riding it.

Ha ha ok a little more detail, I grew up in Africa where we would often take our horses swimming. It was both fun and excellent physio for a recovering horse. And the water was warm!!

 

[HedgePig]

dont feel stupid, you are doing all the right things and are being cautious and finding out all of the negatives before you make a decision. what i meant about riding a horse who is well schooled is that they can get confused and upset if the rider is novice and keeps giving aids incorrectly. i dont know how advanced you are, but i am an ordinary rider with lots of knowledge but limited ability and have ridden some grand prix horses and needed lots of help to give the correct aid. as an example i used too much seat and leg when attempting to go into halt and i ended up with a lovely piaffe. luckily his rider was giving me a lesson and explained what i did wrong and her horse was very forgiving.. just because a horse can do all of the tricks doesnt mean he will be unhappy if he doesnt do them ... you just need to try him and see how you get on and then you will be able to make a decision. good luck, and if you get him we need pics please

I laughed. That is exactly what I was thinking. Here I am THINKING I am giving an inside leg and I can't understand why I am seeing him change on the fly or something exotic. To be brutally honest my gf is the expert here. And I expect I shall just ride him and undo all the hard work! But at least it will be fun. Of course I have pics! But as I said I want to be appropriate as he is a fairy well-known horse with a number of titles and its entirely possible other who know him may be reading this post and I would hate for my amateurism to be a reflection of the judgement of his owner and doing any harm by proxy.

 

[dree]

Personally, I think you are looking at this horse from your previous experiences of stallions. Stallions are perfectly capable of being kept in the same conditions as other horses, but in the UK, we seem to have a fear of stallions. I think once you have ridden him a few times, and found out if you actually like him or not, I would go for it. Stallions that have been handled properly, with respect but not abuse, are not hard to handle if you maintain that respect. Stabling here in the UK would be the hardest stumbling block, imo. I hate the way most stallions are kept well away from other horses......the only reason for this is that most people are frightened of them so stallions take advantage of that fear. (As would any decent horse.) If you are not frightened of him, if you treat him with respect, if you request respect in return, then that is not a problem. But ride him a few times and see how you feel about him. Will you be able to reach the dizzy heights with him? Only you and he will know!! (In fact, I found that well trained horses were easier to train because there are only so many "buttons" and they will follow leg commands easily. Soft hands and plenty of release. But, as I said, the stabling will be your biggest issue.

 

[ycbm]

The problem with stallions and livery yards in the UK is how very few of them are able to offer turnout separated from mares. Check that the livery you have spoken to doesn't expect him to be kept in full time. That's pretty much how they are managed in Spain and Portugal, as I understand.

Riding wise, the biggest dope I ever rode was a big black Danish warmblood.

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[HedgePig]

Personally, I think you are looking at this horse from your previous experiences of stallions. Stallions are perfectly capable of being kept in the same conditions as other horses, but in the UK, we seem to have a fear of stallions. I think once you have ridden him a few times, and found out if you actually like him or not, I would go for it. Stallions that have been handled properly, with respect but not abuse, are not hard to handle if you maintain that respect. Stabling here in the UK would be the hardest stumbling block, imo. I hate the way most stallions are kept well away from other horses......the only reason for this is that most people are frightened of them so stallions take advantage of that fear. (As would any decent horse.) If you are not frightened of him, if you treat him with respect, if you request respect in return, then that is not a problem. But ride him a few times and see how you feel about him. Will you be able to reach the dizzy heights with him? Only you and he will know!! (In fact, I found that well trained horses were easier to train because there are only so many "buttons" and they will follow leg commands easily. Soft hands and plenty of release. But, as I said, the stabling will be your biggest issue.

I ended a call a few minutes ago with a huge local equestrian centre who have said they both have stallions and would be willing to take another on. They come very well recommended online and have a huge indoor arena. This is an excellent step forward. Your advice feels sincere and informed thank you.

 

[HedgePig]

The problem with stallions and livery yards in the UK is how very few of them are able to offer turnout separated from mares. Check that the livery you have spoken to doesn't expect him to be kept in full time. That's pretty much how they are managed in Spain and Portugal, as I understand.

Riding wise, the biggest dope I ever ride was a big black Danish warmblood.

.

Ha ha I don't mind a little dope!
Your question is on my list of questions for the yard.

 

[ycbm]

Stallions are perfectly capable of being kept in the same conditions as other horses, but in the UK, we seem to have a fear of stallions.

I'm sorry Dree but this isn't true. They are mostly capable of being kept in the same conditions as most geldings and mares that are kept well separated by sex. That can be a huge problem on a livery yard which has mares, both with logistics of who is turned out where, and with the natural fear of mare owners of an accident occurring.

A few years back Heather Moffett, who was well used to handling Iberian stallions, had an accident at her yard where a stallion called Beato got free and chased an livery's old mare until she died. While this is rare, it's why mare owner's fears are not wholly unjustified.



.

 

[Queenbee]

I can't truly give you a yay or nay - answer but I would be asking these questions:

Is there anywhere you can keep him entire where he will be both welcomed and have a good and normal life?

I understand your reluctance at getting him only to lop his nuts off, but if you are not buying to breed and bearing in mind the very slim chances of finding an appropriate yard that will welcome him with said nuts... this really is something I would consider doing if I took him on. You wouldn't be the first or the last to buy a lovely horse and geld it. Furthermore, if you do not intend to use him for breeding, which I do think is sensible, what does it matter what his bloodlines are?

You then have the instructor - call me cynical yes, but truthfully isn't that why you have come on here asking the question... you want people to point out the possible negatives and pitfalls that you may find it harder to acknowledge at this point in time... What I mean is, when we fall 'in love' with a horse, we don't often ask the hard questions, we need someone else to do this on our behalf because we become star-crossed. So, back to the instructor... this person has invested a lot of time, training and money, blood, sweat and tears into producing what sounds like a wonderfully trained and quality horse. This instructor whilst knowing you and your character is aware that you have not really ridden in 20 years. No matter how much I admired and trusted the instructor and their judgement - I would feel caution over this. Flip the coin... would you ever sell a horse based on that premis?

The next thing is the breed and the training. Now many people have done it.... had a break, bought a pre or even a tb... something completely different to their old rides and made a go of it. There is no reason to 'stick with what you know' but its a huge jump, that should not be overlooked. I have been there and done it... my mare wasn't well trained, but she was a friesian tb... totally headstrong and willful, I had only been out of the saddle for 3 years. She turned out to be my 'once in a lifetime' but before that she was my nightmare, I almost broke my back, I felt way too over-horsed, I broke my heart most days for a couple of years and after 3 years out of the saddle I was not really fit enough to deal with her shenanigans and every part of me hurt! Would I do it again, knowing what I now know - yes, absolutely!

You will have a lot of challenges, not least the facts that it may feel like you are talking two different languages, pre's aren't TB's by nature and your riding style and his training style will be very different... don't discount this horse, but I would absolutely be listening to and considering every hard and difficult question raised and point made in this thread... at the very least if you do buy this horse it will enable you to go into it with eyes relatively open and a clear plan. Perhaps the owner will consider a trial to assess if you truly are a good fit. Finally, invest in lots of bath soak, heat pads and painkillers.... 20 years out of the saddle is a long while...

 

[HedgePig]

I can't truly give you a yay or nay - answer but I would be asking these questions:

Is there anywhere you can keep him entire where he will be both welcomed and have a good and normal life?

I understand your reluctance at getting him only to lop his nuts off, but if you are not buying to breed and bearing in mind the very slim chances of finding an appropriate yard that will welcome him with said nuts... this really is something I would consider doing if I took him on. You wouldn't be the first or the last to buy a lovely horse and geld it. Furthermore, if you do not intend to use him for breeding, which I do think is sensible, what does it matter what his bloodlines are?

You then have the instructor - call me cynical yes, but truthfully isn't that why you have come on here asking the question... you want people to point out the possible negatives and pitfalls that you may find it harder to acknowledge at this point in time... What I mean is, when we fall 'in love' with a horse, we don't often ask the hard questions, we need someone else to do this on our behalf because we become star-crossed. So, back to the instructor... this person has invested a lot of time, training and money, blood, sweat and tears into producing what sounds like a wonderfully trained and quality horse. This instructor whilst knowing you and your character is aware that you have not really ridden in 20 years. No matter how much I admired and trusted the instructor and their judgement - I would feel caution over this. Flip the coin... would you ever sell a horse based on that premis?

The next thing is the breed and the training. Now many people have done it.... had a break, bought a pre or even a tb... something completely different to their old rides and made a go of it. There is no reason to 'stick with what you know' but its a huge jump, that should not be overlooked. I have been there and done it... my mare wasn't well trained, but she was a friesian tb... totally headstrong and willful, I had only been out of the saddle for 3 years. She turned out to be my 'once in a lifetime' but before that she was my nightmare, I almost broke my back, I felt way too over-horsed, I broke my heart most days for a couple of years and after 3 years out of the saddle I was not really fit enough to deal with her shenanigans and every part of me hurt! Would I do it again, knowing what I now know - yes, absolutely!

You will have a lot of challenges, not least the facts that it may feel like you are talking two different languages, pre's aren't TB's by nature and your riding style and his training style will be very different... don't discount this horse, but I would absolutely be listening to and considering every hard and difficult question raised and point made in this thread... at the very least if you do buy this horse it will enable you to go into it with eyes relatively open and a clear plan. Perhaps the owner will consider a trial to assess if you truly are a good fit. Finally, invest in lots of bath soak, heat pads and painkillers.... 20 years out of the saddle is a long while...

I laughed. Thank you for this reply its a goodie.
I think its natural to be slightly on the defensive when strangers pick apart your plan to rule the world. But you are absolutely correct I am here to face the music even if it makes for uncomfortable listening. I have been unable to edit my original post (noob) to reflect a more accurate explanation of the exchange. I discussed a general budget with my friend while talking about a horse for me. As the conversation has developed and we have spoken in more detail about training for my gf on her spanish horse, I touted the idea of paying him a form of retainer and included my training in it. Weekly stuff for as long as a year at a time. Remember we are not strangers we get on and he enjoys working with my gf already. If one includes a form of contract for his services in tandem with a fair value for his horse, the numbers make perfect sense. I apologise if it felt like a sinister deal handled under cover in trench coats. It is however not a £500 handshake.

Its just that typically these types of horses aren't just 'for sale' and I guess I am testimony to exactly the sort of fantastic opportunity that comes along when you network well in the horse community.

I know next to zero about Lippizaners. You're right. I have only ever ridden TB's and they can be complete bananas, I've had to use a combination of kimblewick and hackamore bridle on a particularly bad case initially, that ended with a pretty soft pelham. At the outset I was probably mad to look at him too. Though I am at an age where I don't need my ego involved! Too many broken bones already.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I haven't ever had a stallion before so others with experience have offered far better advice

You mention you're going to have lessons on him as you're not that technical- you've mentioned your girlfriend is technical if you're worried about him being "wasted" could she pop on him from time to time to have a play and go through all the movements with him just to keep it fresh until you've been taught them?

How much work is he in currently? Is it likely to drastically change as his personality may then change if he's used to hard work and you can only ride him a couple of times?

The best thing to do is go ride him, if you're friends with his seller and they are offering him to you they should let you try him out in a few situations eg at his place a couple of times then a more busy scenario? Will you hack him?

 

[HedgePig]

Ha yes, yes, yes and I don't know!
But yes my partner is a much more technical rider. The idea would be that between us he will get exercised daily, along with ongoing 'big schooling' with the veteran instructor weekly too. I am honest enough with myself that if I feel he's not a good fit for me having ridden him I won't follow through. Equally I want to be able to ride out with him so he does need to be pretty bombproof. On the face of it he is. Riding him a few times should give me more clarity.

At the moment he is schooled every day at 5am. I'm not going to be doing any of that!
Not at 5am anyway but certainly daily rides. I don't know if its a good example but at the moment I go along to my gf lesson each Sunday and set up camera equipment and record the lesson. We then work over it that evening and discuss what she wants to do with it in tandem with the homework she has been given. We then go back to the arena 2-3 times that week and again with the cameras (I use a tripod and a go-pro on her body) we work to get things as close to perfect based on the last week's lesson. The results have been extraordinary for her and her horse and I would hope to continue the same sort of thing for me. In between she will hack, in fact she left at 12:30 today and is out riding as I type this. So on the face of it stimulus and work should be enough. I believe.

 

[Littlebear]

Where is the horse at the moment is it stabled in the UK?

 

[ycbm]

And where will your girlfriend be keeping hers?

.

 

[HedgePig]

Where is the horse at the moment is it stabled in the UK?

Yes, it is about a 2 hour drive from me and we have agreed for me to meet him up close for the first time this Sunday, all being equal. Both the owner and the horse have an excellent reputation in the PRE community locally so I have zero concerns about the legitimacy of the horse nor owner.

 

[HedgePig]

And where will your girlfriend be keeping hers?

.

At the moment her horse is stabled on a private property with about 5 other PREs, I would estimate maybe a 2 minute drive or 10 minute walk by horse from where I have had this initial approval to stable a stallion. So not far from each other, though about a 20 minute drive from our home.

 

[Otherwise]

I've worked on a yard that accepted stallions, we had 4 at one time 3 of which were PREs and I've seen the trouble the stallion owners had finding somewhere else for them when the yard shut down, even the well behaved calm ones. They've all now ended up in private yards that the owners have bought or rented at great expense despite some of them trying various livery yards, some being an hour and a half away. I don't see anything wrong with keeping a stallion entire but only if I could guarantee it had a similar quality of life to any other horse. There's a real lack of decent yards in my area, I would struggle to find one that I'd be happy with, isn't too far away and accepts stallions. Unless I had my own place I'd probably have a stallion castrated, they can take semen during the op if you want the option of breeding in the future.

Just to add, PREs aren't some magical breed where every stallion is as easy as a gelding. We had one that was a right terror, he had run with a herd of mares up until 5 and basically had to be isolated as he was a danger to other horses and people. We still managed to give him a couple of hours turnout each day but he couldn't have any other horses too close to him. He would have had a much happier life as a gelding, the owner refused as they liked the idea of having a stallion, it was viewed like some sort of status symbol.

 

[HedgePig]

I've worked on a yard that accepted stallions, we had 4 at one time 3 of which were PREs and I've seen the trouble the stallion owners had finding somewhere else for them when the yard shut down, even the well behaved calm ones. They've all now ended up in private yards that the owners have bought or rented at great expense despite some of them trying various livery yards, some being an hour and a half away. I don't see anything wrong with keeping a stallion entire but only if I could guarantee it had a similar quality of life to any other horse. There's a real lack of decent yards in my area, I would struggle to find one that I'd be happy with, isn't too far away and accepts stallions. Unless I had my own place I'd probably have a stallion castrated, they can take semen during the op if you want the option of breeding in the future.

Just to add, PREs aren't some magical breed where every stallion is as easy as a gelding. We had one that was a right terror, he had run with a herd of mares up until 5 and basically had to be isolated as he was a danger to other horses and people. We still managed to give him a couple of hours turnout each day but he couldn't have any other horses too close to him. He would have had a much happier life as a gelding, the owner refused as they liked the idea of having a stallion, it was viewed like some sort of status symbol.

You make a good point in you closing and I am working hard to NOT be drawn into any kind of status reflection or similar here. But denying that his pedigree and training is not a significant factor in all this is disingenuous too. Its a fine line.

The horse is however being schooled in line with the Viennese school and he has been following their curriculum. They are all stallions with no exceptions. Dispensing with the romance of it right up front, if I was simply going to buy him and felt he was a bit of a handful and a solution was to geld him, then I wouldn't consider myself a very good match for him as an owner. That's the deal. He is a Lippizaner stallion, trained to perform airs above ground and chopping his nuts off because I am unable to find him an appropriate facility would reflect very poorly on me. Then he needs to go to an owner who does have the capacity to 'handle' him. He is not some wild colt who we are taking a gamble on that he's going to be an idiot. He is schooled and disciplined and well-mannered already. Any subsequent bad behaviour he learns will be down to me and as such not a responsibility I relish if he is beyond my means.

I am excited by the opportunity but have admitted I am only 50/50 here. I will be getting a horse. I will be working hard with it as is in my nature. That horse will be going to a really good home. I just was not expecting it to be THIS horse and so I must step back and be objective. I know you know what I mean here this is a pretty big deal for me and if I am already keeping having him gelded before I have ridden him, I just don't feel I am a good fit, for him.

 

[rara007]

I wouldn’t have a stallion on livery in the UK.

My (pony) stallion is super chilled (usually!), but he’d be castrated if I had to move him without question. We’re excluded from quite a few local riding clubs as it is (Having never been allowed- he’s never disgraced himself!)let alone trying to find him a home with turnout. He’s the pally.

 

[HedgePig]

I wouldn’t have a stallion on livery in the UK.

My (pony) stallion is super chilled (usually!), but he’d be castrated if I had to move him without question. We’re excluded from quite a few local riding clubs as it is (Having never been allowed- he’s never disgraced himself!)let alone trying to find him a home with turnout. He’s the pally.

View attachment 37857View attachment 37856

Helpful! Ha I guess its the moments when he is not 'super chilled' that I want to hear about...

 

[ycbm]

At the moment her horse is stabled on a private property with about 5 other PREs, I would estimate maybe a 2 minute drive or 10 minute walk by horse from where I have had this initial approval to stable a stallion. So not far from each other, though about a 20 minute drive from our home.

Close as they may be, I think you may find it a pain in the neck and a severe reduction in fun levels to have your horses at different yards. Just something else to consider.

.

 

[ester]

Helpful! Ha I guess its the moments when he is not 'super chilled' that I want to hear about...

He's usually horizontal.

I think the likely big difference between the UK and the continent is the amount of herd turnout most yards revolve around here which stallions aren't always compatible with.

I'm impressed by your dedication to filming

 

[HedgePig]

He's usually horizontal.

I think the likely big difference between the UK and the continent is the amount of herd turnout most yards revolve around here which stallions aren't always compatible with.

I'm impressed by your dedication to filming

I chuckled. Thank you! We have found its really the only way to improve. During the lesson you are getting so much information and if its noisy you don't get to hear a lot of what is being said. I have just invested in digital duplex headsets so the rider and instructor can communicate better during the lesson.

I guess step one is to meet him. Get an honest read from the owner about what he is like and what sort of life he leads at the moment. If he is getting turned out in a group every day it's easy. If he is being locked in his stable 23 hours a day and hand walked for 20 minutes at sunset, its not going to work. To be clear I get the sense its more likely to be option one than two.
I just don't want to saddle myself (pun!) with a horse that I need to count to 3 and brace myself to open the stall door. Though as I sit here and type this for the most part the malicious behaviour I have seen most of has been from mares. I have seen a few real meanies, who will position you in a subtle way to inflict some serious harm. Arguably they are 'entire' too and dealing with their own set of hormones etc. But nobody seems to bat an eyelid at them.

I shall update as I go!

 

[cornbrodolly]

It seems , OP , that you are very against gelding this horse. However, if you think it through logically, the horse would have a much easier life. He wouldnt suddenly become less schooled when gelded, or harder to train from then on. he would be the same animal, minus his bits!
He could live on a mixed yard. Your worry level would be greatly lessened. If his breeding line is so fantastic, you can , as described above, freeze and store semen . If you geld you are certainly no less of a rider , just a pragmatic and sensible owner.
Now that we are in our 60 s we no longer stand stallions [our 2 were warmbloods]. Life is much easier without them , no matter how well behaved they were. [ Both competed dressage, showing etc, and our first was regularly hunted , no one even noticing he was entire]
I think your view of stallions will affect how you handle one , perhaps you ought to handle some other stallions first, before owning one? To get a clearer picture of how you need to be with them? They are 'only' horses after all, by which I mean they arent raging tigers out to kill us [ or if they are, their handling has been extremely mismanaged]
Our first stallion lived by himself in a paddock where he could see the mares [ he also had visiting mares] ; the second lived with 2 mares and their offspring . Without the luxury of our own land and set up I would never have contemplated keeping stallions. And they had a settled and happy life. I cannot bear stallions in all the time , and I dont believe riding is a good alternative for turn out. , its just no life for any horse. This confinement is why the stallions you came across, and in many places , are difficult - they become jaded ,bored, unhappy and then finally they flip.
In the Iberian countries the ridden stallions are usually in bachelor herds, which is a fairly natural way for them to be. No mares means no rivalry ! In the wild very few stallions get to mate, the rest are in male only herds - sometimes all their lives.
We have also dealt with Iberian geldings that have come to UK to owners who have had great difficulty in handling them , so they are no no means all quiet. Yes, they look beautiful, noble, romantic , but perhaps we need to look beyond that to think about what we need in a horse , rather than a dream that can quickly end in tears.

 

[milliepops]

why has the current owner not bred from the horse, if the lines are so important or rare that you as a first time stallion owner may do so? just curious.

 

[AmyMay]

Two things spring to mind (well more than two, but two will suffice)

1. You’ve spoken to a livery yard that will accept a stallion - great. What happens if you have to move the horse?

2. If the owner is producing high quality performance horses, they are unlikely to sell to you.