Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[laura_nash]

well they are right, keeping horses in small paddocks with no grazing is bad for the horse, a horse needs 6 hours a day grazing and freedom, . grass is the natural food, the horse needs continuous movement, it has the right to express its natural tendencies, freedom, change of environment

Actually a dry lot and hay is a lot more healthy for many/most horses than being out on most modern grass, which is very far removed from their natural food, or being stabled (which is often a very questionable environment for respiratory health due to dust and ammonia). Of course dry lots aren't very doable in the UK and Ireland due to our climate.

Ideally he'd have more space and company, although he has neighbours over the fence which is all large numbers of horses in the UK have, but "not perfect" is a long way from "needs rescuing" or we'd have to rescue half the horses in the UK.

Not sure where the 6 hrs a day came from? That seems a bit arbitrary to be stating as fact.

The suggestion he needs rescuing is pretty laughable really, unless it is based solely on the fact that his owners allowed him to be used for the competition, and apparently agreed the riders could use a whip and spurs, which is certainly questionable as a welfare decision. But in that case hadn't they better "rescue" all of them.

 

[HashRouge]

I would assume she had trouble getting him into the ring, knew that it was over for her and it was then that she crumbled.

I’ve ridden horses that are perfect in the warm up and nappy in the ring as they have to leave their friends and go it alone. So I can definitely believe this part of the interview. I can’t think there’s any benefit to her lying about his attitude in the warm up?

Well there is - to make herself look better!
It's the absolute state she was in that makes me not believe her. She couldn't have been there trying to get him into the ring for that long, but she was in a state of absolute melt down by the time the cameras picked her up. I'm not saying that he was as bad in the warm up, I just don't believe that it was all lovely and "harmonious".

 

[Xtra]

I also had an xracer that was fab in warm up but napped badly and reared in ring. He also may have associated the ring with the previous round that went badly if the first warm up was OK. He did seem a sensitive type which made him an unlikely candidate for MP sadly.

 

[Zuzan]

........ I do agree he's earned a life of luxury, but I don't see a need to remove him from his home in Japan. And while some here might not like the idea of dry lot living, it is a reality for many horses in this world and if well managed with access to good forage, is perfectly acceptable way of horse keeping. Not everyone has access to perfect grass pastures, and not all horses can realistically be turned out on grass all the time. .................

There is a substantial difference between Care and Welfare .. If the care doesn't faciliate The 5 Domains https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/10/1870 Nutrition Health Environment and Behaviour being positive then Welfare will be compromised. Neglect is not the antithesis of Good Welfare. I think our failure to realise and take on board the Behavioural element of Welfare is critical.

 

[SibeliusMB]

There is a substantial difference between Care and Welfare .. If the care doesn't faciliate The 5 Domains https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/10/1870 Nutrition Health Environment and Behaviour being positive then Welfare will be compromised. Neglect is not the antithesis of Good Welfare. I think our failure to realise and take on board the Behavioural element of Welfare is critical.

So we are stating based off a couple mobile photos that this horse's welfare needs aren't being met? Does this necessitate rescue?

I've worked for large animal welfare organizations and seen more than I care to share here. I cannot be outraged at a horse on a dry lot that is clearly being fed and looked after just fine, when there are horses local to all of us in actual dire need of help.

 

[Zuzan]

So we are stating based off a couple mobile photos that this horse's welfare needs aren't being met? Does this necessitate rescue?

I've worked for large animal welfare organizations and seen more than I care to share here. I cannot be outraged at a horse on a dry lot that is clearly being fed and looked after just fine, when there are horses local to all of us in actual dire need of help.

I also would hesitate to pronounce on SB's welfare on the evidence of a few photos.. I agree that is not enough to base a decision .. My only caveat is I have to say I am sceptical of the current owners understanding of Welfare v Care when they presumably willingly leant SB to the event given past out crys regarding riding standards in MP.

 

[SibeliusMB]

My only caveat is I have to say I am sceptical of the current owners understanding of Welfare v Care when they presumably willingly leant SB to the event given past out crys regarding riding standards in MP.

This is understandable. But we also don't know how they were approached, they might have just been asked for 1.20 jumpers with little or no detail given about MP. I do think a lot of assuming goes on with requests like this, it could be the owners were ignorant of MP and its history of riding "quality," and therefore assumed these folks were truly capable and competent at the 1.20 level of which the horses were required (I mean...it's the Olympics afterall). Or, they just failed to do their own homework on MP and research. Which if it were me and I didn't know about the sport, I'd be hopping on YouTube immediately to see examples (and then would immediately say "oh hell no"). So some fault lies with the owners for either willingly allowing their horse to be exposed to the high potential of poor/dangerous riding, or being ignorant and just allowing it to happen.

That said, he seems in adequate care now and while he probably deserves an actual sainthood for not killing someone, those yahoos on Facebook calling for his immediate rescue probably have no idea of more critical welfare issues going on around them.

 

[Zuzan]

This is understandable. But we also don't know how they were approached, they might have just been asked for 1.20 jumpers with little or no detail given about MP. I do think a lot of assuming goes on with requests like this, it could be the owners were ignorant of MP and its history of riding "quality," and therefore assumed these folks were truly capable and competent at the 1.20 level of which the horses were required (I mean...it's the Olympics afterall). Or, they just failed to do their own homework on MP and research. Which if it were me and I didn't know about the sport, I'd be hopping on YouTube immediately to see examples (and then would immediately say "oh hell no"). So some fault lies with the owners for either willingly allowing their horse to be exposed to the high potential of poor/dangerous riding, or being ignorant and just allowing it to happen.

That said, he seems in adequate care now and while he probably deserves an actual sainthood for not killing someone, those yahoos on Facebook calling for his immediate rescue probably have no idea of more critical welfare issues going on around them.

Agree largely .. except I am probably more sceptical than you!!!

 

[Winters100]

Reading all of this I begin to feel that mine also need rescuing. By this stage of the summer there is almost no grass in my field, and none at all in the smaller paddock. They have ad lib hay 24/7, although good-doer has to wait in the small paddock with wet hay in a small holed haynet while I ride the other 2 so he is not eating all day. I have no problem with the lack of grass, and even my poor doer looks great in my opinion.

I disagree that horses need a lot of grass, mine are all fit and full of energy, in my opinion, and in the opinion of my vet, none are either too fat nor too thin. To be honest if there was a lot of grass I would probably have to resort to keeping good-doer in his box a lot more, so I am quite happy that it is like this. Maybe poor-doer would be easier to keep if there was grass, but we have a grassy area next to the stable and I let her free there to eat for a while every day, as well as giving frequent feeds of high fibre soaked food.

Really to me saying that a healthy horse is in need of rescue due to lack of grass is a bit ridiculous. In this case there are thousands in need of rescue around most of Continental Europe!

 

[Winters100]

The word schoolmaster does not automatically mean loose ring snaffle and no noseband... Also those draw reins really are inoffensive to my eyes in those two videos.

Agree. I ride my schoolmistress in anything from a rope around the neck or a headcollar, to a gag with draw reins - depends on what we are doing. To me the key is how I use them. I have light hands and she does not even know that the draw reins are there - they are there for use only if needed.

One of my other horses is only ridden in what appears to me to be an incredibly harsh bit - he came with it, and it is a gag with 2 thin bars. I tried to change him to a jointed snaffle when I bought him, but he hated it. Throws his head around. Someone here advised me that the bit he has is liked by horses who have fat tongues, and it seems that maybe this is so. The bit is only as hard as your hands, and I did not see anything in the case of SB that caused me concern.

 

[teapot]

Well if we want to go down the 'what turnout is best' route - Martin Fuchs' Clooney has suffered a career ending injury in his field, and it's so bad the main hope is he'll be able to live out his retirement in the field.

Shall we ban turnout now? Clooney's probably suffered more than Saint Boy did...

 

[Caol Ila]

If you're used to seeing drylots, it's not a big deal. I get that it's not common in the UK, so people here might eye it askance. In many parts of the US, there's virtually no grazing, so the horses are dry lotted with ad lib hay. Virtually nothing at my barn got laminitis. Some were in large herds, others were in small herds, and others (mine) were in individual pens, depended on what suited the animal question.

 

[tristar]

if i take on a horse aiming for the ideal is what i aim for, the proof of which is happiness in the eyes, joie de vivre, expressed in the daily life and robust good health, movement is intrinsic, regular outbursts of cantering, galloping and associated acrobatics i love to see, it tells me that life is good for the horse, its mood expressed physically has a large mental component

keeping horses in small paddocks denies them this aspect of movement which to me is a fundamental, and together with inadequate work, equals a huge falling short of the ideal.

when taking horses from the small paddock environment to roam freedom i have seen a huge change, improvement in the feet through regular expansion of the hoof, fitness levels and general health and attitude improvement.

i have experience of horses who have lived like this and seen many in other countries kept in small paddocks in full sun with no shelter

i understand why people want saint boy, its not to rescue him, more an instinctive desire to make up to him, an apology for making a fool out of him, for all those who stood there and didn`t lift a finger to stop a bad thing when it was happening, and to hold him up as a reason to make sure things change, and spoil him rotten because he deserves it {like all horses do}

 

[Mule]

While I appreciate Kaley Cuoco's offer to buy the horse, I think she didn't realize he wasn't owned by the German rider/team. Another byproduct of the immediacy of social media - few people take the time to get educated on what they're really replying to. Saint Boy looked in good weight and well cared for at home, he doesn't need "rescuing." I do agree he's earned a life of luxury, but I don't see a need to remove him from his home in Japan. And while some here might not like the idea of dry lot living, it is a reality for many horses in this world and if well managed with access to good forage, is perfectly acceptable way of horse keeping. Not everyone has access to perfect grass pastures, and not all horses can realistically be turned out on grass all the time.

That said....if I was Saint Boy's owner and didn't have a massive emotional connection to him, I'd probably sell and make serious $$$ and give the horse an incredible home with Kaley.

Some countries don't even have grazing. Dry lots are the norm in the middle east. We are spoiled with our grazing.

 

[TPO]

The irony is the when Kaleys show jumpers get out its into dry lots and not a 24/7 situ.

 

[oldie48]

Another irony is that I thought wild horses lived on quite barren plains, travelling large distances to find sufficient food and water, getting fat if they find good grazing and losing the weight when they fall on hard times. Dry lots with hay/hay equivalent doesn't seem that different to me from a nutritional POV but I'm probably missing something. Happy to be educated if I am completely wrong.

 

[fiwen30]

Edit: got my timeline of events wrong, sorry!

 

[shortstuff99]

Does anyone have a link to watch the whole round, preferably without a whole bunch of additional You-tuber commentary on it? I didn’t watch Annika Schleu’s round live, but I was pretty sure I’d seen it in a YT video which had the whole women’s riding event, but now I can’t find the link anywhere. The official Olympics YT channel doesn’t show the women’s rounds, funnily enough.

The only videos I can find now begin when Saint Boy starts to reverse, and then gets walloped, but if I’m thinking of the right video didn’t the pair of them enter, jump a few obstacles messily but alright, until she got a stride wrong at a fence, the horse tried it anyway rather than refusing, and they crashed straight through it? It was then that Saint Boy panicked, Schleu lost the plot, and they had a ton of refusals until she retired/was eliminated?

Unless I’m completely wrong and that wasn’t the correct video, it truly does paint the rider in a more terrible light than just being given an upset horse which was refusing from the off-set. From what I remember seeing, Saint Boy jumped honestly for her, until she messed up their striding which led to him demolishing a fence and then he understandably didn’t want anything more to do with it. And instead of understanding that, she freaked out (presumably seeing her medal slipping away), and began beating him rather than retiring with sportsmanship.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I’d also love(??) to see the full round again, rather than the select clips that the tabloids began posting.

I think you can still watch it on Discovery + and maybe BBC Iplayer but will need to check.

He came into the ring refusing to jump. That is where the hitting etc started. They then managed to get him going where he was doing okay until she missed her stride to fence when he said no again.

 

[milliepops]

all available on Olympics.com
https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/en/...mming-fencing-bonus-round-riding-show-jumping
she was last to go.

 

[greenbean10]

As much as I dislike the MP, I do really think it’s a stretch to question the horse’s welfare based on a dry lot turnout and draw reins. I think it weakens any argument.

 

[fiwen30]

I think you can still watch it on Discovery + and maybe BBC Iplayer but will need to check.

He came into the ring refusing to jump. That is where the hitting etc started. They then managed to get him going where he was doing okay until she missed her stride to fence when he said no again.

Ah, I see. Were there a few refusals at the first fences, before the missed striding and the demolished fence?

 

[shortstuff99]

Ah, I see. Were there a few refusals at the first fences, before the missed striding and the demolished fence?

No, he refused to move out of the corner for some time, then got going and did the first few okay and probably would have finished if she had got the striding right. As soon as she got it wrong he quit as he had had enough.

 

[criso]

Ah, I see. Were there a few refusals at the first fences, before the missed striding and the demolished fence?

No, once he started going he jumped a few. Although the missed striding was a.big part of him saying he'd had enough, he may also have got to a part of the arena where napping was more likely.

 

[oldie48]

tbh I don't think the missed stride was the big issue it was the napping I'm really no expert, she got him going forward and actually she then looked a pretty well balanced positive rider but he was backing off at fence 4 and also at fence 5, where he missed the stride. The area where he was napping at the beginning of the round was adjacent to fence 5 and then she couldn't keep him straight into fence 6 because of the napping. I think the napping at the start would have been very tricky to deal with as he was reversing towards the fence. tbf to her, she did what a lot of riders would have done by trying to turn him but he'd completely shut down to her leg aids. I've read so much criticism of her riding but I'd be interested to know what others would have done in her situation. It's a common problem and I've seen it so many times at competitions, horses that nap towards the collecting ring or the lorry park. We've had the odd one but a pc kick, whip in the correct hand and a couple of sharp taps + positive riding has generally got the horse going but there's often a pole or two in consequence and fortunately not a ship load of nastiness on social media to deal with after, just some work to do before the next competition!

 

[greenbean10]

tbh I don't think the missed stride was the big issue it was the napping I'm really no expert, she got him going forward and actually she then looked a pretty well balanced positive rider but he was backing off at fence 4 and also at fence 5, where he missed the stride. The area where he was napping at the beginning of the round was adjacent to fence 5 and then she couldn't keep him straight into fence 6 because of the napping. I think the napping at the start would have been very tricky to deal with as he was reversing towards the fence. tbf to her, she did what a lot of riders would have done by trying to turn him but he'd completely shut down to her leg aids. I've read so much criticism of her riding but I'd be interested to know what others would have done in her situation. It's a common problem and I've seen it so many times at competitions, horses that nap towards the collecting ring or the lorry park. We've had the odd one but a pc kick, whip in the correct hand and a couple of sharp taps + positive riding has generally got the horse going but there's often a pole or two in consequence and fortunately not a ship load of nastiness on social media to deal with after, just some work to do before the next competition!

I completely agree with this. I’ve seen horses do far worse than this going into the ring, get a few serious wallops and go on to jump fine. No one seems to bat an eyelid.

 

[Kat]

I think you can still watch it on Discovery + and maybe BBC Iplayer but will need to check.

He came into the ring refusing to jump. That is where the hitting etc started. They then managed to get him going where he was doing okay until she missed her stride to fence when he said no again.

Anyone looking to understand what happened really needs to watch his first round too. That is where the problem started.

 

[tristar]

tbh I don't think the missed stride was the big issue it was the napping I'm really no expert, she got him going forward and actually she then looked a pretty well balanced positive rider but he was backing off at fence 4 and also at fence 5, where he missed the stride. The area where he was napping at the beginning of the round was adjacent to fence 5 and then she couldn't keep him straight into fence 6 because of the napping. I think the napping at the start would have been very tricky to deal with as he was reversing towards the fence. tbf to her, she did what a lot of riders would have done by trying to turn him but he'd completely shut down to her leg aids. I've read so much criticism of her riding but I'd be interested to know what others would have done in her situation. It's a common problem and I've seen it so many times at competitions, horses that nap towards the collecting ring or the lorry park. We've had the odd one but a pc kick, whip in the correct hand and a couple of sharp taps + positive riding has generally got the horse going but there's often a pole or two in consequence and fortunately not a ship load of nastiness on social media to deal with after, just some work to do before the next competition!

with due respect, O 48, it was the olympics so horse should be happy at that level

i think she should have just got off, and said, `my equipment is broken` well she would not have beaten a bike or maybe she would have!

personally i would have got off, the horse is being very clear in asking her to dismount, his body language says it all, there is clearly a serious problem

if it had been a training issue it should have been addressed at home

 

[oldie48]

with due respect, O 48, it was the olympics so horse should be happy at that level

i think she should have just got off, and said, `my equipment is broken` well she would not have beaten a bike or maybe she would have!

personally i would have got off, the horse is being very clear in asking her to dismount, his body language says it all, there is clearly a serious problem

if it had been a training issue it should have been addressed at home

Well horse clearly not happy at that level on the day, but that was not the rider's fault and obviously it was not a problem she could have foreseen or dealt with at home.You would have got off and tbh after trying a good kick etc I'd have got off too but then again I've never ridden for an Olympic Gold medal. I do wonder what the keyboard warriors/ team coach etc would have made of it if she'd given up before jumping a fence. The first round on this horse was, as Kat says, probably key and AS had to deal with the consequences. I'd like to say that in the heat of the moment I've always made the right decision but I haven't and AS had a lot at stake, with a coach shouting instructions at her (who knew you could have outside interference?) but thank you for answering my question. x

 

[tristar]

Well horse clearly not happy at that level on the day, but that was not the rider's fault and obviously it was not a problem she could have foreseen or dealt with at home.You would have got off and tbh after trying a good kick etc I'd have got off too but then again I've never ridden for an Olympic Gold medal. I do wonder what the keyboard warriors/ team coach etc would have made of it if she'd given up before jumping a fence. The first round on this horse was, as Kat says, probably key and AS had to deal with the consequences. I'd like to say that in the heat of the moment I've always made the right decision but I haven't and AS had a lot at stake, with a coach shouting instructions at her (who knew you could have outside interference?) but thank you for answering my question. x

you have hit the nail on the head there, with would she have reacted differently without the pressure on the day, circumstances

 

[lannerch]

This has been discussed a lot on this post, I think I linked to the rules on it and provided extracts. The situation did not meet the requirements for her to be given the option of the spare horse.

I read that the reason she could not change horses was more to do with the fact that the second reserve horse had already been used so there was no horse left to swop to.