Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[Kat]

To be fair Saint Boy was so tanked on adrenaline when the coach smacked his bum that I doubt he did feel anything. Still not appropriate behaviour. But I have seen people saying that he was punched in the face by the coach and that's not true either.

I honestly don't think the side-swipe punch over a fence was the main welfare issue going on that day and I think the MP authorities will try to scapegoat an errant coach rather than address the issues in the sport head on and holistically.

In case of misunderstanding since we ARE in purity spiral territory, no the coach was not excusable in her actions but focusing on the coach and the rider might detract from the main issue of MP needing at least an attitude overhaul towards the horses.

Taking horses out altogether would solve the problem but I think it could be solved without needing to do that. Whether it will or not. I don't know. Some human backsides need a hefty thump to sort it out though.

I agree.

UIPM will now say we have acted, we have banned the coach when the "punch" was not really the issue.

When actually the important thing is what kind of welfare standards and safeguards are in place.

These horses aren't being ridden by riders with a significant interest in their well being like the horses in the other sports do they should be protected more than the other equine athletes not less.

UIPM haven't made any statements about pre and post competition vet checks. They haven't said whether there are any checks between riders. They haven't said what care they get between riders. There is no mention of any officials either in competition or during the warm up with the power to advocate for a horse or remove a horse.

Key welfare concerns are being lost behind some fairly hysterical shreaking on social media. We need a measured response if we want to effect change within MP without fuelling arguments that all horse sport is cruel and should be banned.

 

[Fred66]

Ingrid Kilmke has said in a public statement about the MP that she wouldn't/couldn't get on a strange horse and jump a 1.20 course after 20 minutes getting to know them time.

I think that says an awful lot about what a big ask this is.

This is not dissimilar to what PC A test candidates are expected to do. The height is dependent on horses available but is typically 1.1m. I would therefore say that Ingrid is being disingenuous in her response, possibly she wouldn’t want to jump 1.2m on any horse!

 

[Winters100]

They are at the olympics not pony club.

Which is a shame, because I am pretty sure that at pony club this would have been stopped before it caused so much distress to the horse.

 

[Otherwise]

Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.

I did BUCS a couple of years ago, you were only allowed 5 minutes and up to 4 practice jumps and then jumped a course up to 90cm. At regionals same practice time but a course of 1m, the final round of the finals is up to 1.20 and you still only get 5 mins warm up. 20 mins seems masses of time in comparison.

For my BHS exams you weren't shown the horse jumping the course, you got a couple of practice jumps and then just got on with it. It was only the second jumping round you were able to watch a previous candidate jump it.

 

[Kat]

Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.

I was far from Olympic standard but I was competent enough to take a strange horse around a course of jumps without killing myself or causing it distress. That's not too much to ask for the MP competitors and from what I saw before I turned off I don't think lowering the jumps would make a huge amount of difference because most of them were passengers at best.

I think the fence height is more about the horses than the riders.

It is much easier to find horses that can jump round a 1m course than a 1.20 course. They are also much more likely to be of a forgiving type that is relatively used to being ridden by a variety of riders.

In this country you'd be looking at good quality riding school horses and those used for stage 2 and 3 exams rather than sensitive competition horses.

A miss at 1m is much less of a concern than at 1.20 too.

 

[teapot]

I think the fence height is more about the horses than the riders.

It is much easier to find horses that can jump round a 1m course than a 1.20 course. They are also much more likely to be of a forgiving type that is relatively used to being ridden by a variety of riders.

In this country you'd be looking at good quality riding school horses and those used for stage 2 and 3 exams rather than sensitive competition horses.

A miss at 1m is much less of a concern than at 1.20 too.

You'd need 3 and 4 horses for a 1m course. You wouldn't want some Stage 2 horses anywhere near a 1m course, even at the best centres.

There's a reason so few places offer the Stage 4 or 5 jump exams now, not just about horse power, but to protect the horses they do have! Examiners aren't allowed to pull anyone until they do something wrong either...

 

[Kat]

This is not dissimilar to what PC A test candidates are expected to do. The height is dependent on horses available but is typically 1.1m. I would therefore say that Ingrid is being disingenuous in her response, possibly she wouldn’t want to jump 1.2m on any horse!

Er Ingrid Kilmke the 5* eventer, will be used to showjumping at 1.30 in competition.

She does however make valid points about the pressure of competition, the environment and the type of horses needed for MP that show why a pony club or BHS exam isn't a fair comparison.

 

[Kat]

You'd need 3 and 4 horses for a 1m course. You wouldn't want some Stage 2 horses anywhere near a 1m course, even at the best centres.

There's a reason so few places offer the Stage 4 or 5 jump exams now, not just about horse power, but to protect the horses they do have! Examiners aren't allowed to pull anyone until they do something wrong either...

I appreciate the difficulties in sourcing the horses for these exams and how difficult it would be to have 20 odd of them but that shows how much more difficult it is to find suitable horses for MP while MP has fences at 1.20.

 

[Fred66]

Er Ingrid Kilmke the 5* eventer, will be used to showjumping at 1.30 in competition.

She does however make valid points about the pressure of competition, the environment and the type of horses needed for MP that show why a pony club or BHS exam isn't a fair comparison.

Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad.

However I would stick by the disingenuous though. Whilst there were a fair number of riders that were not comfortable and were out of balance, there were also some who rode pretty competently given that they had 20 mins warm up. Possibly they should be able to ride them on the flat the previous day for 40mins familiarisation before getting the 20mins and 5 jump warm up on the day.

Edit: also spare a thought for jockeys, some of whom do ride the horse on the gallops at home but many don’t. They are put up on the horse in the paddock and straight out onto the race course.

 

[Arzada]

horse is not 22...there is some reporting he was born in 1989 but Olympic record says 2006

Yes. https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...odern-pentathlon/horse-nh200025-saint-boy.htm

There is/was another Saint Boy b 1989 https://www.jbis.jp/horse/0000224521/

 

[Chianti]

According to the bbc who have a table of funding for different events, we spent 5,500,000 million on the pentathlon so they are very definitely professionals. I don’t know how the funding works for other countries but I’m sure they all do a lot of training in all the disciplines. They are at the olympics not pony club.

5,500,000? So each gold medal cost 2,750,000? Obviously not much of the budget goes on riding lessons. I look at that and think how many poorer kids could be given free riding lessons or have contact with horses to help them with mental health issues with that money. I find the amount as a country that we spend on the Olympics and professional athletes completely unreasonable. There's a quest to get us at far up the medal table as possible so we an be 'Great Britain' again for a couple of weeks. In the mean time local sports provision has been slashed because there isn't the money for it.

 

[Arzada]

There's a reason so few places offer the Stage 4 or 5 jump exams now, not just about horse power, but to protect the horses they do have! Examiners aren't allowed to pull anyone until they do something wrong either...

Years ago I was involved in running BHS exams. Stage 1 and 2 were relatively straightforward. Stage 3 not so much and Stage 4 we ran only once, mainly because we didn't have enough suitable horses and like you say to protect those that we did have.

One exam we had a horse mounted and just starting the flat assessment when he showed slightly lame. His replacement was being tacked up while I went in to the examiners to explain that we were removing the slightly lame horse and his replacement was outside the doors and ready to enter. They didn't want this and expected the lame horse to continue. He didn't.

 

[SibeliusMB]

Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad.

However I would stick by the disingenuous though. Whilst there were a fair number of riders that were not comfortable and were out of balance, there were also some who rode pretty competently given that they had 20 mins warm up. Possibly they should be able to ride them on the flat the previous day for 40mins familiarisation before getting the 20mins and 5 jump warm up on the day.

Edit: also spare a thought for jockeys, some of whom do ride the horse on the gallops at home but many don’t. They are put up on the horse in the paddock and straight out onto the race course.

This isn't a genuine comparison. Both the PC A candidates and most jockeys have a considerable amount of horse experience. Even the jocks who start late have to be trained professionally and get through apprenticeship and all that. Bottom line: both of these compare experienced horsemen to non-experienced horsemen (most MPers).

I agree with Ingrid that a 1.20m course on an unfamiliar horse IS a considerable ask of anyone, even a professional. There is an awful lot of evaluation and diagnosis that has to go into those few minutes prior to the course in a catchride, that the vast majority of these MPers aren't going to have the toolset to do. I don't think a 40 minute flat school the day before would help given their general lack of ability. A pro or decent amateur would be fine, but a relative novice just isn't going to know how to use that time effectively. All that does then is further tire the horses.

I rode at university in the States and under the IHSA format we had only 5 minutes to familiarize ourself with our horses, and weren't allowed to do anything in the "warm up" other than walk. We had to step in without so much as trotting the horses before and go jump around courses up to 3'. The difference is we had kids who had ridden since they were young, on proven horses that had been warmed up over the course that morning (and watched by the competitors), and the jumps were small. The moment something wasn't right with the horse, it was pulled and the rider could file and have it be reviewed by the stewards for a redraw. We always had some fresh horses in reserve in case redraws were granted. Horses were allowed a limited number of rides to keep them fresh/happy. It was very much centered on horse welfare, while everything we've seen from MP suggests that competition isn't.

Either MP has to have a way of sorting out those riders who aren't up to a safe standard, and disqualify them from the riding portion, or they need to scrap the riding portion. This is definitely one of those "lowest common denominator" sports and you can't have a field of 40+ competitors jumping a 1.20m course when only a handful can do it safely and competently.

 

[AmyMay]

https://www.insider.com/world-penta...bRjuuUZnPRZgdScckYHOONTmeAXCgMYdNJyvu2oGAVBmU

 

[bonny]

5,500,000? So each gold medal cost 2,750,000? Obviously not much of the budget goes on riding lessons. I look at that and think how many poorer kids could be given free riding lessons or have contact with horses to help them with mental health issues with that money. I find the amount as a country that we spend on the Olympics and professional athletes completely unreasonable. There's a quest to get us at far up the medal table as possible so we an be 'Great Britain' again for a couple of weeks. In the mean time local sports provision has been slashed because there isn't the money for it.

We are buying medals, judging by the results in Tokyo it’s a plan that’s working and it appears the athletes at the olympics are doing very nicely out of it.

 

[spookypony]

Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad.

No, that's the same one! She, like her father, rides at that level in both Eventing and Dressage.

 

[fetlock]

Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.

I was far from Olympic standard but I was competent enough to take a strange horse around a course of jumps without killing myself or causing it distress. That's not too much to ask for the MP competitors and from what I saw before I turned off I don't think lowering the jumps would make a huge amount of difference because most of them were passengers at best.

What was the course like?
(Considering the 4 foot Tokyo course was pretty long, contained a double, a treble and several fences inbetween with related distances too).
It wasn't that far removed from the eventing SJ course, except they ride multiple horses day in day out and know their horses well, and still very few of them went clear.

I still think it's a huge ask of them- horses and riders, especially adding Olympic pressures.
I'm really surprised others think otherwise.

 

[shortstuff99]

Here is an article written by a former pentathlete. Quite interesting

https://equimarket.co.uk/should-showjumping-be-part-of-modern-pentathlon/

 

[stormox]

Where are these horses owners during the competition? I assume they are watching? If I had seen my horse being treated like that I'd have been over the fence, grabbed its head and told the 'rider' to get off.....

 

[ycbm]

Here is an article written by a former pentathlete. Quite interesting

https://equimarket.co.uk/should-showjumping-be-part-of-modern-pentathlon/

Excellent article by someone who's been there and done it.
.

 

[Rowreach]

Er Ingrid Kilmke the 5* eventer, will be used to showjumping at 1.30 in competition.

She does however make valid points about the pressure of competition, the environment and the type of horses needed for MP that show why a pony club or BHS exam isn't a fair comparison.

I'm actually surprised she said that, because for most professional competition riders and anyone who produces horses (and quite often they are one and the same), getting on strange horses and doing things is the day to day bread and butter stuff - they don't spend all their time in the ring at 5* competitions. Crikey, back when I was doing schoolers it was pretty much the job that a horse would come in for a limited time and you had to be able to get on them and ride them, or show them for people, or hop on at the sales and jump them round a course for the bidders for €20.

I remember a good few years ago now that we bought a very cheap hunter because he'd thrown in the towel and wouldn't jump for his owner. I took him on a hack, called in to see a friend (GB team showjumper) and he hopped straight on him, trotted round the field and then jumped him round his replica Hickstead Derby course. He definitely didn't spend 20 minutes getting to know him.

The point is that it isn't impossible for riders of a certain standard, and with the training in place, to jump a relatively strange horse round a 1.20m track (assuming the horse is capable of it). But the sport itself has allowed the lack of training, lack of preparation, lack of horsepower, and general disrespect towards horses in general, to perpetuate for literally decades. And judging by the statements and photo justifications over the past couple of days, they really aren't taking the howls of complaint terribly seriously even now. I hope I'm wrong about that.

 

[Kat]

Here is an article written by a former pentathlete. Quite interesting

https://equimarket.co.uk/should-showjumping-be-part-of-modern-pentathlon/

It is inaccurate though. Horse welfare and safeguarding rules are not the same as FEI.

FEI jumping rules do not allow the whip to be used more than three times in a row. They don't allow remounting after a fall. FEI allow elimination for abuse of the horse.

If these rules are in place then the judges should be disciplined. If they aren't they should be.

In any event due to the additional pressures of MP and the lack of relationship with the horse there should be more stringent rules to protect the horse.

 

[Kat]

I'm actually surprised she said that, because for most professional competition riders and anyone who produces horses (and quite often they are one and the same), getting on strange horses and doing things is the day to day bread and butter stuff - they don't spend all their time in the ring at 5* competitions. Crikey, back when I was doing schoolers it was pretty much the job that a horse would come in for a limited time and you had to be able to get on them and ride them, or show them for people, or hop on at the sales and jump them round a course for the bidders for €20.

I remember a good few years ago now that we bought a very cheap hunter because he'd thrown in the towel and wouldn't jump for his owner. I took him on a hack, called in to see a friend (GB team showjumper) and he hopped straight on him, trotted round the field and then jumped him round his replica Hickstead Derby course. He definitely didn't spend 20 minutes getting to know him.

The point is that it isn't impossible for riders of a certain standard, and with the training in place, to jump a relatively strange horse round a 1.20m track (assuming the horse is capable of it). But the sport itself has allowed the lack of training, lack of preparation, lack of horsepower, and general disrespect towards horses in general, to perpetuate for literally decades. And judging by the statements and photo justifications over the past couple of days, they really aren't taking the howls of complaint terribly seriously even now. I hope I'm wrong about that.

The point is that none of your examples involve the massive pressure of the Olympics.

Even when Mark Todd hopped on Horton Point at Badminton or John Whitaker got on Buddy Bunn at Hickstead the pressures weren't the same.

They both showed that you absolutely can pull out an amazing performance on a horse you haven't met but they weren't in the same circumstances. If they got off after 10 minutes and said I don't think it is in this horse's best interest for me to compete it today the worst case scenario would have been a mildly annoyed owner.

Annika had the pressure of the Olympics. A gold medal. The hopes of a nation. Pressure from her coach. Pressure from her national body. Pressure that funding depends upon Olympic performance.

Those pro riders weren't expected to win. Annika was expected to win, everyone thought it was a done deal.

I am not excusing her behaviour but I think that is Ingrid's point, not that riding a 1.20 course on a strange horse is impossible, but that the combination of the pressure, the environment and the strange horse make it incredibly challenging.

This is coming from someone who knows what it is like to ride into a massive arena on a horse to jump a course when everyone expects you to win. We shouldn't write-off her comments.

 

[tristar]

i think ingrid is right

 

[PapaverFollis]

If getting on a strange horse and riding a big course of showjumps requires a level of horsemanship to do then the MP athletes need to have that level of horsemanship. And the sport needs to toughen up on those that don't.

"They're not horsemen so it's a big ask"

"To do their sport they should have to be horsemen then because this big ask is part of the sport. The level of horsemanship requires must therefore be enforced"

I'd horses stay in it then horse ability needs to be shifted to be at the core of the sport so that they are ALL horse people with extra skills. Or other all round sports people who have worked like hell on their riding and general empathy with the horse so the riding is at an appropriate level.

 

[Rowreach]

The point is that none of your examples involve the massive pressure of the Olympics.

I wasn't suggesting that my examples (other than the GB sj-er) would have been able to, at the Olympics, but that I was surprised that your example said she couldn't.

And that these so called pentathletes should, actually, be able to.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

I actually got round to watching some of the men's MP riding on Discovery. I couldn't believe how bad it was and how honest those poor horses were. So many of them were not seeing a stride and just crashing through the fences with no regard for rhythm or a decent canter. With one competitor the commentator noticed he was holding the reins very tight and then one of his reins actually snapped. Can you imagine how tight you have to hold on to snap a rein? I stopped watching after that.

 

[crazyandme]

Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad.

However I would stick by the disingenuous though. Whilst there were a fair number of riders that were not comfortable and were out of balance, there were also some who rode pretty competently given that they had 20 mins warm up. Possibly they should be able to ride them on the flat the previous day for 40mins familiarisation before getting the 20mins and 5 jump warm up on the day.

Edit: also spare a thought for jockeys, some of whom do ride the horse on the gallops at home but many don’t. They are put up on the horse in the paddock and straight out onto the race course.

Even the dressage riders will have been expected to jump a fair height to pass the test to allow them to compete top level dressage in Germany!

 

[Fred66]

This isn't a genuine comparison. Both the PC A candidates and most jockeys have a considerable amount of horse experience. Even the jocks who start late have to be trained professionally and get through apprenticeship and all that. Bottom line: both of these compare experienced horsemen to non-experienced horsemen (most MPers).

I agree with Ingrid that a 1.20m course on an unfamiliar horse IS a considerable ask of anyone, even a professional. There is an awful lot of evaluation and diagnosis that has to go into those few minutes prior to the course in a catchride, that the vast majority of these MPers aren't going to have the toolset to do. I don't think a 40 minute flat school the day before would help given their general lack of ability. A pro or decent amateur would be fine, but a relative novice just isn't going to know how to use that time effectively. All that does then is further tire the horses.

I rode at university in the States and under the IHSA format we had only 5 minutes to familiarize ourself with our horses, and weren't allowed to do anything in the "warm up" other than walk. We had to step in without so much as trotting the horses before and go jump around courses up to 3'. The difference is we had kids who had ridden since they were young, on proven horses that had been warmed up over the course that morning (and watched by the competitors), and the jumps were small. The moment something wasn't right with the horse, it was pulled and the rider could file and have it be reviewed by the stewards for a redraw. We always had some fresh horses in reserve in case redraws were granted. Horses were allowed a limited number of rides to keep them fresh/happy. It was very much centered on horse welfare, while everything we've seen from MP suggests that competition isn't.

Either MP has to have a way of sorting out those riders who aren't up to a safe standard, and disqualify them from the riding portion, or they need to scrap the riding portion. This is definitely one of those "lowest common denominator" sports and you can't have a field of 40+ competitors jumping a 1.20m course when only a handful can do it safely and competently.

Surely then MP needs to sort out its qualification procedures then rather than consign the sport to the history books ?

Similar to BE where you have to progress through the levels to enable you to compete at the next level.

MP needs to focus on drawing athletes from a horse background that move onto running, swimming, shooting, fencing rather than the other way round.

 

[ycbm]

MP needs to focus on drawing athletes from a horse background that move onto running, swimming, shooting, fencing rather than the other way round.

I don't agree. All they need to do is change the equestrian test to something that doesn't involve outright abuse of the horse if the riding is not up to standard. Failing to open a gate, for example, instead of crashing through a 1m 20 oxer.
.