Tokyo Pentathlon SJ

[TPO]

Denny is so in love with the sound of his own voice these days (and is so happy to delete those that disagree) it's hard to know what to do with anything he posts anymore. Again, the "Yeah, but what about THIS OTHER THING" doesn't help the welfare concerns in MP, nor does it help eventing. This is the blame game, in equestrian format. Useless.

If you read his page it's not "whatabouttery". He isn't saying "what about the other thing" he is saying that horse welfare should come first in EVERY sport we choose to use them for

There's a slight irony in wanting FEI to oversee MP when horses DIE in FEI sanctioned sports (eventing and endurance). The FEI welfare standards leave a lot to be desired. Horses are left to die in the desert with broken legs!

Of course some of the riding was disgraceful but some of the riding at affiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding at unaffiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding in private is disgraceful. Even looking good at the "good" examples promoted from the Olympics isn't that good. Mouths tied shut while bits are pulled to the extreme back of the mouth, btv horses with closed gullets. Saint Boys eyes seem have piqued a lot of interest but his eyes could be replaced by a lot of FEI Olympic horse eyes with no difference.

There are photos posted on here with too short running martingales, strong and/or leverage bits, noseband that prohibit the horse opening their mouth to avoid the pain of bad hands and people wearing spurs with no lower leg control so that the spurs are constantly in the horses side. Those photos are met with rounds of praise for having a go and giving it a try. There have been plenty of posts from people at their end of their tether with their horses behaviour and none of those people have had 5yrs of Olympic gold medal pressure on their shoulders.

Of course equine welfare should come first in every equine sport from the ground up and the top down. No one is watching MP thinking they will emulate that bad behaviour unless they are already that way inclined.

Why this outrage solely at MP when ALL aspects of equine welfare need reviewed and improved at Olympic level an at leisure owner level with everything in between?

 

[Annagain]

The number of people (mostly in the US) I've seen offering to "rescue" Saint Boy is ridiculous. Yes he was treated very badly and I'm not condoning what happened to him in any way but he isn't a horse that needs rescuing. He was assessed by vets before the competition and deemed fit and healthy. He was well muscled and coat was gleaming, I have no doubt that he is very well cared for and that he was physically up to the job being asked of him before that Russian girl got on him. That hour of his life was unforgiveable and something definitely needs to be done about MP but the people who abused him are not doing that to him every day. To focus too much on his individual circumstances distracts attention from the bigger picture.

 

[SibeliusMB]

If you read his page it's not "whatabouttery". He isn't saying "what about the other thing" he is saying that horse welfare should come first in EVERY sport we choose to use them for

There's a slight irony in wanting FEI to oversee MP when horses DIE in FEI sanctioned sports (eventing and endurance). The FEI welfare standards leave a lot to be desired. Horses are left to die in the desert with broken legs!

Of course some of the riding was disgraceful but some of the riding at affiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding at unaffiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding in private is disgraceful. Even looking good at the "good" examples promoted from the Olympics isn't that good. Mouths tied shut while bits are pulled to the extreme back of the mouth, btv horses with closed gullets. Saint Boys eyes seem have piqued a lot of interest but his eyes could be replaced by a lot of FEI Olympic horse eyes with no difference.

There are photos posted on here with too short running martingales, strong and/or leverage bits, noseband that prohibit the horse opening their mouth to avoid the pain of bad hands and people wearing spurs with no lower leg control so that the spurs are constantly in the horses side. Those photos are met with rounds of praise for having a go and giving it a try. There have been plenty ty of posts from people at their end of their tether with their horses behaviour and none of those people have had 5yrs of Olympic golf medal pressure on their shoulders.

Of course equine welfare should come first in every equine sport from the ground up and the top down. No one is watching MP thinking they will emulate that bad behaviour unless they are already that way inclined.

Why this outrage solely at MP when ALL aspects of equine welfare need reviewed and improved at Olympic level an at leisure owner level with everything in between?

I would venture the outrage is because MP has been offered help in the past and visibly made no effort to prioritize horse welfare. It's also because the entire general public is now associating all things equestrian with the marginalized, bastardized version of showjumping in MP and no one wants that kind of negative attention.

No, the FEI is not fault-free, but I would argue they've done a better job at trying to improve things than the UIPM has done. Or not done at all.

And yes, there is badness happening everywhere in the horse world and it all needs to be fixed, something I and many others have said repeatedly in this thread. Maybe the silver lining here is that all horsemen, in all horse sports, will see the kind of negative attention the MP debacle is getting, understand that the general public's tolerance is far lower than it used to be, that visibility matters, and walk a much straighter line. Hopefully all horses will benefit from this, but first we have to collectively survive the public backlash that MP's poor decisions has created.

Everything you've said is true and I agree. It's a long story, but Denny is just not the angelic voice of wisdom he wants everyone to think he is. There are other way more constructive voices out there who are actually TRYING to make a difference, not just sit on FB and criticize and talk about how horsemanship in "the good old days" was so much better.

 

[TPO]

I would venture the outrage is because MP has been offered help in the past and visibly made no effort to prioritize horse welfare

I understand your point but so has FEI endurance. The irony of FEI reaching out to help with horse welfare is a bit ??? maybe MP needs some rich nations/sheikhs to invest in it...

Well aware Denny isn't an angel but nor does he claim to be. He frequently writes about his mistakes, regrets and lessons he's learned the hard way. Surely that's the thing, let others learn from your mistakes so that they don't have to make them.

 

[SibeliusMB]

I understand your point but so has FEI endurance. The irony of FEI reaching out to help with horse welfare is a bit ??? maybe MP needs some rich nations/sheikhs to invest in it...

Well aware Denny isn't an angel but nor does he claim to be. He frequently writes about his mistakes, regrets and lessons he's learned the hard way. Surely that's the thing, let others learn from your mistakes so that they don't have to make them.

His mistakes around horses aren't what I'm referring to.

 

[Kat]

Public reaction seems completely dependent on whether an incident is caught on camera or not.

No, there has been some dreadful abuse of Robin Godel (rider of Jet Set who was euthanised following a tendon injury on the cross country).

I don't think it is any way in the same league. Jet set suffered an accidental injury, he was treated humanely and with respect, his rider was riding responsibly prior to the incident, he pulled up and dismounted promptly. There was a vet at every fence and he received attention immediately. He was removed from the course for treatment but following investigation a decision was taken in the best interests of the horse to put him down.

It showed that the FEI welfare standards worked on this occasion. UIPM haven't made any statements about the welfare/veterinary precautions in place or whether they operated correctly on this occasion but I very much doubt that the riding we witnessed during MP would have been allowed during the eventing, the rider would have been eliminated because of the rules in place for horse and rider safety.

 

[Mule]

No, there has been some dreadful abuse of Robin Godel (rider of Jet Set who was euthanised following a tendon injury on the cross country).

I don't think it is any way in the same league. Jet set suffered an accidental injury, he was treated humanely and with respect, his rider was riding responsibly prior to the incident, he pulled up and dismounted promptly. There was a vet at every fence and he received attention immediately. He was removed from the course for treatment but following investigation a decision was taken in the best interests of the horse to put him down.

It showed that the FEI welfare standards worked on this occasion. UIPM haven't made any statements about the welfare/veterinary precautions in place or whether they operated correctly on this occasion but I very much doubt that the riding we witnessed during MP would have been allowed during the eventing, the rider would have been eliminated because of the rules in place for horse and rider safety.

There hasn't been any significant media attention given to the eventing horse's death though. In comparison to the mp incident, it's been negligible.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Re eventing. I was once scribing for BE dressage and a rather unruly combination entered our arena. This would have an 80 or 90. They somehow negotiated the test.

Dressage judge called one of the stewards over, who got an SJ bod to watch that pair in the SJ to see if they were safe to start XC. Apparently they could jump much better than they could dressage, so they were allowed to go forward for the XC, where they safely got round.

 

[TPO]

There hasn't been any significant media attention given to the eventing horse's death though. In comparison to the mp, it's been negligible.

Exactly. The abuse directed toward Robin is awful and when social media can detect posts about covid I sure they can figure a way to block abusive messages.

The horse died because he was doing xc; he wasn't the first and is unlikely to be thr last. "We" put horse's lives in danger when deciding to ride them at speed towards (mostly) fixed fences. There hasn't been the same level of criticism about a sport that increases the risk to life where one party has no say.

As someone said upthread the <5mins we saw of the German rider in the ride was no comfortable viewing. Of course everything should be done to improve animal welfare in all aspects of the lives. I just don't understand the hho high horse being so blinkered.

If some official body was to do an indepth review into the use of horses in sport and the general public were made aware of the findings I don't think there would be much of a future in it.

 

[Mule]

Exactly. The abuse directed toward Robin is awful and when social media can detect posts about covid I sure they can figure a way to block abusive messages.

The horse died because he was doing xc; he wasn't the first and is unlikely to be thr last. "We" put horse's lives in danger when deciding to ride them at speed towards (mostly) fixed fences. There hasn't been the same level of criticism about a sport that increases the risk to life where one party has no say.

As someone said upthread the <5mins we saw of the German rider in the ride was no comfortable viewing. Of course everything should be done to improve animal welfare in all aspects of the lives. I just don't understand the hho high horse being so blinkered.

If some official body was to do an indepth review into the use of horses in sport and the general public were made aware of the findings I don't think there would be much of a future in it.

I agree. I also think its important that riders be ahead of the curve in welfare issues.

 

[Mule]

Whip use in racing is something that's got a lot of attention recently. Some countries have banned them, others are allowing whips only to be used for safety, like on the shoulder for steering. According to what I've read, it hasn't impacted racing times and the racing public prefer it. Things like that seem fairly simple and easily implemented.

 

[criso]

https://www.facebook.com/109161715946/posts/10157828385865947

This is in the context of many posts on that page about the safety of eventing and the type of obstacles.

However I thought Jet set was reported as pulled up lame? I think the type of injury is relevant as a fall resulting in a horse pts reasonably raises questions about course design and types of obstacles which an injury between fences doesn't.

 

[TPO]

This is in the context of many posts on that page about the safety of eventing and the type of obstacles.

However I thought Jet set was reported as pulled up lame? I think the type of injury is relevant as a fall resulting in a horse pts reasonably raises questions about course design and types of obstacles which an injury between fences doesn't.

Agree, thats my point. The horse was only on the xc course because a human wanted to win a sport. The horse had no say. Yes a horse could do a leg in the field or hacking but the chances increase when we make the sort of demands on a horse that getting it to Olympic level of fitness and training do.

So at what point is it OK to put "our" wants over the horse knowing the risks. Why is it "ok" to risk a horse doing X but condone non life threatening Y? (?generic, not you criso)

 

[Rowreach]

Ok I think it is accepted that there are varying degrees of abuse across all horse sport and horse ownership, and various sports are riskier to horse and rider than others, statistically. I see things popping up on Facebook everyday, from ordinary horse owners, that make me , which people clearly see as perfectly ok to be doing, yet I find questionable.

I think if we have the remotest respect for horses, or their welfare, we should be relieved that MP has at last come under the microscope of public opinion, and will now have to make changes, changes which it could have implemented over the past 20 years but didn't, and clearly did not intend to either, until the Tokyo fallout.

Sorting out MP doesn't mean we can't strive to sort out all the other stuff too. I'm guessing pure showjumping is going to be under pressure after Tokyo. We should all, always, be looking at bettering horse welfare, no question about it.

As for eventing, well I'm old school and I preferred XC when it was about galloping and jumping big scary rider frighteners which a good horse would take on happily, and falls were less likely to kill horse or rider. Ever since courses became more like a grass track with clusters of complicated questions, the sport has gone wrong, and as usual it's to the detriment of the horse.

I do think that the glaring difference between MP and other horse sports, even racing, is the undoubted treatment of the horse as a piece of equipment, expected to perform in the same way as a machine, and to be discarded afterwards without a backward glance.

 

[Kat]

I think the big problem with MP is that the riders have no interest in the welfare of the individual horse. Their interest is in winning. It makes no real difference to the MP athlete whether they win and ruin the horse or win and give the horse a lovely confidence giving round.

Eventers and showjumpers have a strong reason to protect their horse. If a horse loses confidence or has a career ending injury then the rider can't ride that horse at the next major competition affecting the trajectory of their career. There will be financial repercussions, slightly different depending upon whether they own the horse or not but it would be financially detrimental to ruin a horse. There is reputational damage and that can have financial repercussions too in terms of sponsorship and owners.

This is why MP horses need greater protection than the horses in eventing and showjumping.

 

[Kat]

This is in the context of many posts on that page about the safety of eventing and the type of obstacles.

However I thought Jet set was reported as pulled up lame? I think the type of injury is relevant as a fall resulting in a horse pts reasonably raises questions about course design and types of obstacles which an injury between fences doesn't.

Yes Jet Set pulled up lame, he didn't fall and I think the wording of Denny's post is very unfair to Robin Godel.

It is unfair to compare a horse pulling up lame to what happened to Saint Boy.

If we consider that horses pulling up lame is abuse then we are heading down the route of all riding being abusive.

 

[Zuzan]

The more I think about the more I think we need a holisitic approach to welfare .. as in every aspect of equine human interactions .. Yes there are extremes and high publicity examples of compromised welfare but we do need to address absolutely every aspect of human interaction and management of equines.. be that being a considerate safe driver on a road; ensuring horses do get turnout; making our sports as safe as possible .. bearing in mind every aspect of our management / interaction can have welfare and equine safety implications .. Welfare and Safety aren't black and white issues.

I also wonder if half the welfare debate is more about equine safety .. avoidance of injury .. ?

One thing that keeps nagging me is where there are huge sums of money involved then there should be a commensurate effort to ensure equine safety and welfare.. recognising unavoidable accidents happen.

I see so many competitors in a red fog that obviously clouds their ability to make decisions and take appropriate action .. this is where I wonder about the ethics of "sport" .. It's partly why I personally don't really participate in competition .. training yes, but I know sometimes I can get very tunnel visioned even in a training setting.

 

[ycbm]

Ok I think it is accepted that there are varying degrees of abuse across all horse sport and horse ownership, and various sports are riskier to horse and rider than others, statistically. I see things popping up on Facebook everyday, from ordinary horse owners, that make me , which people clearly see as perfectly ok to be doing, yet I find questionable.

I think if we have the remotest respect for horses, or their welfare, we should be relieved that MP has at last come under the microscope of public opinion, and will now have to make changes, changes which it could have implemented over the past 20 years but didn't, and clearly did not intend to either, until the Tokyo fallout.

Sorting out MP doesn't mean we can't strive to sort out all the other stuff too. I'm guessing pure showjumping is going to be under pressure after Tokyo. We should all, always, be looking at bettering horse welfare, no question about it.

As for eventing, well I'm old school and I preferred XC when it was about galloping and jumping big scary rider frighteners which a good horse would take on happily, and falls were less likely to kill horse or rider. Ever since courses became more like a grass track with clusters of complicated questions, the sport has gone wrong, and as usual it's to the detriment of the horse.

I do think that the glaring difference between MP and other horse sports, even racing, is the undoubted treatment of the horse as a piece of equipment, expected to perform in the same way as a machine, and to be discarded afterwards without a backward glance.

This a million times better put than I was going to write. My bold.
.

 

[tristar]

No, there has been some dreadful abuse of Robin Godel (rider of Jet Set who was euthanised following a tendon injury on the cross country).

I don't think it is any way in the same league. Jet set suffered an accidental injury, he was treated humanely and with respect, his rider was riding responsibly prior to the incident, he pulled up and dismounted promptly. There was a vet at every fence and he received attention immediately. He was removed from the course for treatment but following investigation a decision was taken in the best interests of the horse to put him down.

It showed that the FEI welfare standards worked on this occasion. UIPM haven't made any statements about the welfare/veterinary precautions in place or whether they operated correctly on this occasion but I very much doubt that the riding we witnessed during MP would have been allowed during the eventing, the rider would have been eliminated because of the rules in place for horse and rider safety.

a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event

 

[tristar]

The number of people (mostly in the US) I've seen offering to "rescue" Saint Boy is ridiculous. Yes he was treated very badly and I'm not condoning what happened to him in any way but he isn't a horse that needs rescuing. He was assessed by vets before the competition and deemed fit and healthy. He was well muscled and coat was gleaming, I have no doubt that he is very well cared for and that he was physically up to the job being asked of him before that Russian girl got on him. That hour of his life was unforgiveable and something definitely needs to be done about MP but the people who abused him are not doing that to him every day. To focus too much on his individual circumstances distracts attention from the bigger picture.

i hope someone does rescue him

and use him to promote the end of mp sj

you can`t change the world for all horses

but you can change the world for one horse is our motto

 

[Kat]

a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event

I don't think it suggests that they were expecting disaster, just that every effort was made to ensure that should there be an issue it could be dealt with promptly without delay.

I listened to a very interesting interview with an FEI vet who was working at the Olympics and it was very clear that the attitude was that they should be prepared for everything even unlikely events in order to avoid any unnecessary suffering.

 

[Miss_Millie]

The number of people (mostly in the US) I've seen offering to "rescue" Saint Boy is ridiculous. Yes he was treated very badly and I'm not condoning what happened to him in any way but he isn't a horse that needs rescuing.

I wouldn't speak too soon. The UIPM shared a photo of 'him' on their social media to 'prove he is okay' but it is clearly a different horse and the photo was taken in winter. I wouldn't be surprised if he was PTS.

 

[criso]

a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event

Was that the year that one of the horses had a flag go in him.

In which case, they changed the materials that flags were made out of.

Also changes have been made to the design of courses and frangible pins introduced.

The Olympics are smaller to allow for less experienced nations.

At lower levels there are now rules about having to drop down a level after eliminations.

Whether horses should be pushed to that limit is a valid question but eventing has made some big and not always popular changes.

 

[teapot]

a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event

There's a doctor at every 5* fence too - think they're a planning for a rider death or just good sensible precautions? Ever H&S managed an event that involves horses and humans, of any level? I have. You have to plan for every. single. thing. just in case.

Also, given the length/area covered by 5* courses, all hell would break loose on social media if a vet WASN'T at every fence.

ETS: there was a vet in every corner of the Tokyo main arena too.

 

[Annagain]

i hope someone does rescue him

and use him to promote the end of mp sj

you can`t change the world for all horses

but you can change the world for one horse is our motto

The chances are he'll never be used for pentathlon again. He was provided for one competition and there won't be another in Japan for years. He's a normal show jumper, who was well cared for before and is normally ridden by competent riders. His world doesn't need changing, that one hour in his past did, but that's impossible. I'm not saying there's not an issue just that it highlighted a wider issue and that's what should be focussed on, not the one horse who had a bad day.

I wouldn't speak too soon. The UIPM shared a photo of 'him' on their social media to 'prove he is okay' but it is clearly a different horse and the photo was taken in winter. I wouldn't be surprised if he was PTS.

I agree the photo is suspicious but that doesn't mean he was PTS. Why would they need / want to put him down? He was traumatised but not physically injured and it's far too soon to tell whether the emotional trauma has had a lasting effect that would require such drastic action. I agree the UIPM need to take a good had look at themselves but I don't think they're in the business of killing healthy horses because they didn't perform - and even if they were he's not their horse, he was loaned to them for the competition. I think it's far more likely he'd been taken home, they didn't have a photo of him and they panicked and used one they thought they'd get away with.

 

[tristar]

I don't think it suggests that they were expecting disaster, just that every effort was made to ensure that should there be an issue it could be dealt with promptly without delay.

I listened to a very interesting interview with an FEI vet who was working at the Olympics and it was very clear that the attitude was that they should be prepared for everything even unlikely events in order to avoid any unnecessary suffering.

if i had to take consultant orthopedic surgeon with me to tesco, just in case, although i left home in one piece, i might think it was not a safe place!

it suggests they know the horses are at their very limits to me.

 

[teapot]

if i had to take consultant orthopedic surgeon with me to tesco, just in case, although i left home in one piece, i might think it was not a safe place!

it suggests they know the horses are at their very limits to me.

If we're going down that route, shall we stop the Olympic swimming and open water events because there's a lifeguard on site/in the water with them?

 

[tristar]

The chances are he'll never be used for pentathlon again. He was provided for one competition and there won't be another in Japan for years. He's a normal show jumper, who was well cared for before and is normally ridden by competent riders. His world doesn't need changing, that one hour in his past did, but that's impossible. I'm not saying there's not an issue just that it highlighted a wider issue and that's what should be focussed on, not the one horse who had a bad day.



I agree the photo is suspicious but that doesn't mean he was PTS. Why would they need / want to put him down? He was traumatised but not physically injured and it's far too soon to tell whether the emotional trauma has had a lasting effect that would require such drastic action. I agree the UIPM need to take a good had look at themselves but I don't think they're in the business of killing healthy horses because they didn't perform - and even if they were he's not their horse, he was loaned to them for the competition. I think it's far more likely he'd been taken home, they didn't have a photo of him and they panicked and used one they thought they'd get away with

he looked like he had back problems, and was asking the rider to dismount, then got beaten, i dare say he could have chucked her off , but is too nice a person to do so

 

[tristar]

If we're going down that route, shall we stop the Olympic swimming and open water events because there's a lifeguard on site/in the water with them?

well yes if they are likely to drown! which hopefully they are not



i dont think its a good comparison is not the same as a rotational fall or crash landing with a heap of poles between your horses legs

 

[Kat]

if i had to take consultant orthopedic surgeon with me to tesco, just in case, although i left home in one piece, i might think it was not a safe place!

it suggests they know the horses are at their very limits to me.

I hate to break it to you but a Tesco superstore will have several first aiders on duty at any time.