Too many who hunt are unfriendly and get hunting a poor social reputation

Judgemental said:
Therefore is it is clear the Lib Dems are going to extract an extremely high price from the Conservative party to cut a deal.

Furthermore the Lib Dems will use the Hunting Act 2004 as a very effective bargaining tool to strengthen their position in the West Country and amongst their core vote.

The Hunting Act 2004 is the best Christmas Present that the Labour Party could have given the Libs Dems and it will be used in remarkable ways - Remember where you first heard this opinion.
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We had a Lib Dem where I live and as part of the fight I wrote to ask that they support Hunting and vote against the act.

I recieved the rudest most abnoxious reply I have ever know. In this letter I was called all manner of things from murderer, facist etc.

I would not trust the Lib Dems. They were supporting Labour in the creation of the Act even if many did not fully participate.

I believe that where this country has far greater problems that require more attention our best bet is to push those facts forward and ask what difference the act has actually made? All it has done is increase wasted police/ court time as someone tries to figure out what the "law" actually is. That and the fact that hunts have in general obided by the rules laid down and the sabs have not clearly show that hunts are not in the habit of breaking the laws of our land and that the sabs are clearly a bunch of zealots.

Push this forward and any person will get very tired of it very quickly. It is a law that is unenforcable, incomprehensive and very foolishly written.

I suspect that Nick Clegg has far more concerns than the Hunting Act and as such would rather spend time sorting out the real basics of our country. If we get in there now we have a far higher chance of pointing out that the whole situation is silly to the n'th degree.

Don't forget that the Lib Dems also need the conservatives.
 
Paddydou said:
We had a Lib Dem where I live and as part of the fight I wrote to ask that they support Hunting and vote against the act.

I recieved the rudest most abnoxious reply I have ever know. In this letter I was called all manner of things from murderer, facist etc.

I would not trust the Lib Dems. They were supporting Labour in the creation of the Act even if many did not fully participate.

I believe that where this country has far greater problems that require more attention our best bet is to push those facts forward and ask what difference the act has actually made? All it has done is increase wasted police/ court time as someone tries to figure out what the "law" actually is. That and the fact that hunts have in general obided by the rules laid down and the sabs have not clearly show that hunts are not in the habit of breaking the laws of our land and that the sabs are clearly a bunch of zealots.

Push this forward and any person will get very tired of it very quickly. It is a law that is unenforcable, incomprehensive and very foolishly written.

I suspect that Nick Clegg has far more concerns than the Hunting Act and as such would rather spend time sorting out the real basics of our country. If we get in there now we have a far higher chance of pointing out that the whole situation is silly to the n'th degree.

Don't forget that the Lib Dems also need the conservatives.
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Paddy, I don't doubt it and I have been told personally by our own MP that Nick Clegg 'runs with the hare and hunts with the hounds'.

Yes, but the Hunting Act 2004 is part of the Conservatives Holy Grail or Sacred Cow, there are thousands of hunting people who were mobalised at the election to support prospective hunting MPs.

One of which promptly arrived in the job and has been a very naughty girl! No doubt we can have forgiveness in our hearts. Weaknesses especially amongst fit, healthy horsey people are inevitable.

So the bottom line is that the Conservatives have to and are expected to deliver and extremely quickly.

If it all went pear shaped between Cameron and Clegg for what ever reason (although my personal take is that they remain in the 'love nest' - that's how the Civil Servants refer to Downing Street for the full gestation period), then they will be out of office and fighting another General Election and all those Hunting Campaigners will be very important.

Thus the prospective candidates will be able to say we delivered - hopefully.

We can all talk about it on forums such as this, but when it gets into the corridors of power and the House of Commons run by a Coalition Government, in my opinion it's all bit like spinning a Roulett Wheel.
 
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If Clegg "runs with the hare ...etc" that just makes him the same as any bloody MP,or any committee member in the country as far as I can see,never met or heard of anything different,do so admire your faith JM.
 
Judgemental said:
One of which promptly arrived in the job and has been a very naughty girl! No doubt we can have forgiveness in our hearts. Weaknesses especially amongst fit, healthy horsey people are inevitable.

We can all talk about it on forums such as this, but when it gets into the corridors of power and the House of Commons run by a Coalition Government, in my opinion it's all bit like spinning a Roulett Wheel.
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That would be the one I voted for...and have been voting for, for quite some time! Met on several occasions and is a great friend of a friend who was very shocked and embarrassed by it all! Silly but doesn't make her Satan does it? We are all mere mortals of the flesh after all. Not something I would personally choose to do but each to their own and I have also made mistakes of epic proportions in my time.

Still dispite her "naughty traits" she is all in all a good cookie and I heard she was out on boxing day - good on her!

I think all in all the coalition will work out. I have been fairly impressed with what they have done so far and they appear to be taking a strong line. Disposing with petty ideas brought to the helm by labour (horse tax for example) and concentrating on the more important issues. I am crossing my fingers that they will simply abolish the Act and get on with more pressing issues in hand.

I agree with your Roulett theory, you will always have this in a true democracy as you are dealing with people, however I do also believe that between them Cameron and Clegg are going to get somewhere and restore faith in our belittled political system! Coalitions have worked very well in other countries, its about time it worked in ours. Cross fingers to the hunting worlds benefit!
 
Paddydou said:
That would be the one I voted for...and have been voting for, for quite some time! Met on several occasions and is a great friend of a friend who was very shocked and embarrassed by it all! Silly but doesn't make her Satan does it? We are all mere mortals of the flesh after all. Not something I would personally choose to do but each to their own and I have also made mistakes of epic proportions in my time.

Still dispite her "naughty traits" she is all in all a good cookie and I heard she was out on boxing day - good on her!

I think all in all the coalition will work out. I have been fairly impressed with what they have done so far and they appear to be taking a strong line. Disposing with petty ideas brought to the helm by labour (horse tax for example) and concentrating on the more important issues. I am crossing my fingers that they will simply abolish the Act and get on with more pressing issues in hand.

I agree with your Roulett theory, you will always have this in a true democracy as you are dealing with people, however I do also believe that between them Cameron and Clegg are going to get somewhere and restore faith in our belittled political system! Coalitions have worked very well in other countries, its about time it worked in ours. Cross fingers to the hunting worlds benefit!
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Oh yes forgiveness is everything and names are not mentioned. However this just reminds everybody to behave themselves if they want to be taken seriously on this very sensitive issue.
 
I have my hat in the air and the master is blowing Gone Away -

3001 Views and 125 comments

Going back over the forum I am having difficulty in topping that for any thread.

But the point is, a Labour Government was allowed to bring in the 2004 Hunting Act and now you all have to wake up to a COALITION GOVERNMENT to resolve the issue.

It is the best political drag or trail in modern times, because the Lib Dems will keep running from covert to covert with the drag. Will it turn into a live Charlie, who knows.

But it has the best political scent for a 'travelling dog fox' with a political agenda.
 
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rosiefronfelen said:
----and in english this says?????
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I am with you Rosie; it is difficult to understand Equibrit's post.

Nevertheless there have been 128 posts and 3380 views of this thread - if class is an issue, then that number of views must be indicative of there being a problem.

Coupled of course to good manners, the social issues of hunting - agricultural landlords and tenants - customer care - the fact money is paid, therefore folk expect to see 'sport' and receive a service.

Then there are the political questions at this very sensitive time.

Can anybody name the MP's who know a thing or two about hunting and regularly ride?

I know there is Mrs Caroline Noakes MP for Romsey, who amongst other things is the Tack Check Lady at Hursley Hunt Pony Club events. But it would be constructive if we could identify all those in Parliament who properly understand our world of horses and hunting?

I think we should use this forum to know who they all are? Is anybody with me to list them all?

I will go a stage further. In my opinion the subject of hunting so complex and technically involved it requires considerable knowledge to make a fair assessment.

It was clear to me that there were no Labour MP's in the last administration who either hunted, rode or indeed knew anything about hunting or had had a hands on experience on a regular basis.

If they were company directors, under the Company's Act and the Department of Trade and Industry, (is it still called that?) then one is obliged to know one's subject.

In my opinion those deciding the issues of hunting have a duty of care to be able to say and prove they ride, they hunt and have regularly attended hunt gatherings.

What do you all think?
 
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she is hell of a brave lady speaking out for what she believes in. This in my view is going too far regarding businesses and companies etc, its only an amateur sport come pest control, depending on the "country" of course, and i for one knows it'll stay that way here-thanks be to god!!
 
rosiefronfelen said:
she is hell of a brave lady speaking out for what she believes in. This in my view is going too far regarding businesses and companies etc, its only an amateur sport come pest control, depending on the "country" of course, and i for one knows it'll stay that way here-thanks be to god!!
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I forgot about Kate Hoey - very remiss of me. My apologies should you be a contributor of reader of this thread.

Rosie, you are right. I was always brought up to understand hunting was a sport However as you will recall in the early days of this thread I referred to hunting being a sport. But as you know the whip was used on me (to a little excess but not sufficent for a stewards enquiry) saying it was a BUSINESS.

Taking into account the costs - all of them and the costs to those that hunt - 4 x 4 vehicles - horses - tack - feed for horses and hounds - clothing - entertainment (that's can be expensive in some hunting circles) - vets bills - rent & rates - building and repairs - fuel - Vat - lorries & their plating & maintenance and on road costs - legal fees - bank charges - accountants fees - fees to the Countryside Alliance and other associated bodies - collection of fallen stock from farmers - wages - national insurance - insurance policies for just about everything - I am sure I have missed some elements nevertheless I have had to revise my opinion to it all pointing to a business.

What you say is fair in the Welsh Hills but the trouble is the closer you get to the Home Counties the more the costs rise.

Therefore my argument with the Politicians is that they should understand, ideally with some hands on experince, what is involved and how the economy benefits.

Have the Masters of Foxhounds Association ever invited all MPs to visit a hunt kennels for example? Not some hunt where it would be a vain glorious exercise in one-up-man-ship.

If not why not?

If they have, who declined the invitation and why, is another point!

Come on folks you are all sitting there with a ban - the Hunting Act 2004, having allowed the whole system to gallop all over you
 
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AN OPEN OPINION (I am a mere poltroon so I don't advise) TO THE MASTERS OF FOXHOUNDS ASSOCIATION.

If you should be so amazingly innovative as to invite all MP's to visit hunt kennels then I suggest:

1) You guarantee not to invite the press

2) You do not allow any pictures to be taken - unless the MP's request same.

3) *Every MP is given a complimentary copy of Bailey's

4) *Every MP is given a complimentary subscription to Horse and Hound for a year

* I am sure some rich benefactor can be found to foot the bill unless those publications decide it's a good idea and want to look after their self interests.

That said, when there is a no-show by any MP, they are written to again and invited a second time.
 
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i agree with all you say, but to be brutally honest i am past caring about the attitudes and whinging of hunts in england.things have changed so much for the worse,and standards have bottomed out in many cases.our neighbouringhunt is running too many hounds,bills are getting out of hand, and the committee squabbles at every meeting.what is the point???i can do little bar look at our glorious countryside and hope we continue as we do, i see no reason why we shouldn't!! we had a check 18 months ago from the chap from the welsh mfha who gave us10/10- we do not run a fallen stock scheme as we do not feed flesh-so no hiccups there.any MP is welcome to visit but i doubt any will bother!!i love living in another age and letting the rest of the world pass us by--by the way,judge,Bailys is only online now, another sign of the times!!
 
Judgemental said:
AN OPEN OPINION (I am a mere poltroon so I don't advise) TO THE MASTERS OF FOXHOUNDS ASSOCIATION.

If you should be so amazingly innovative as to invite all MP's to visit hunt kennels then I suggest:

1) You guarantee not to invite the press

2) You do not allow any pictures to be taken - unless the MP's request same.
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It's all been done - time and again! The Tories usually turn up, some of the Lib Dems do, and VERY few of the Labour MPs! Hell, we used to take the bu**ers hunting. I recall accompanying one anti-Labour MP - whose name escapes me - to a Cubbing meet at the Quorn! (How's THAT for brave/foolhardy!) The bu**er saw a kill close up - one hound, instant clean kill with not a drop of blood spilled. Bu**er was on radio a few days later referring to foxes "being disembowelled and torn apart!" :rolleyes:

I also recall Julian Barnfield - then huntsman of the Worcestershire and one of the BEST spokesmen we had - VERY politely declining to shake Michael Foster's hand - in front of the cameras!:D
 
JanetGeorge said:
It's all been done - time and again! The Tories usually turn up, some of the Lib Dems do, and VERY few of the Labour MPs! Hell, we used to take the bu**ers hunting. I recall accompanying one anti-Labour MP - whose name escapes me - to a Cubbing meet at the Quorn! (How's THAT for brave/foolhardy!) The bu**er saw a kill close up - one hound, instant clean kill with not a drop of blood spilled. Bu**er was on radio a few days later referring to foxes "being disembowelled and torn apart!" :rolleyes:

I also recall Julian Barnfield - then huntsman of the Worcestershire and one of the BEST spokesmen we had - VERY politely declining to shake Michael Foster's hand - in front of the cameras!:D
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Janet George, yes I know and I am the first to recognise how disengenuious some (yes that is probably an understatement) MP's can be on sorts of subjects.

However on the basis if you don't suceeed at first, try try again.

Now I did specify inviting them all only to Hunt Kennels. Frankly the Quorn would not be my first choice. But I could deal with at a later date.

Properly entertaining them - keeping the press and cameras out the frame.

We now have a Coalition Government, a coalition with some mighty fiscal issues to deal with.

That means all the Tories will be attending, the LibDems will attend because they will need to know how the wind is blowing and the Labour party will turn up enmass - trust me they will.

This is their legislation the 2004 Hunting Act and when it is emasculated they will be, well sitting there with egg on their face to say the least.

However in order to get a concensus for self-regulation they must all be able to say they understand the subject.

The trouble is and I think you said earlier in this thread something along the lines of "it takes some drilling to get into the heads of some masters of hounds".

Amongst other things, a master of hounds needs to be almost a professional PR officer, or at the very least he or she has one at their right hand at all times.

The playing field is very different to pre-2004.

Forgive me if I sound if I am lecturing you, but they are all on very weak ground - if the coalition fell apart and they needed to be seen to have 'done the right thing' come the election.

I am prepared to admit I know who the players are for the repeal game and frankly some don't impress me and should be sitting on the bench and/or turned out to grass!
 
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Judgemental said:
Rosie, you are right. I was always brought up to understand hunting was a sport However as you will recall in the early days of this thread I referred to hunting being a sport. But as you know the whip was used on me (to a little excess but not sufficent for a stewards enquiry) saying it was a BUSINESS.
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This I do not understand.

Hunting is a business, Hunting is a sport, Hunting is pest control, Hunting is a social activity, Hunting is many more things.

Saying that Hunting is a sport and not a business is daft! That equates to saying that Sailing is not a business or Formula One is not a business. All sport involves business. If it didn't then we wouldn't have swimming pools, golf clubs or trainers designed, built and made.

It really has become an extrodinarily (sp apologies - it is Monday morning!)emotive subject. As such it just seems that very few are able to look at it objectivly with out prejudice and look at ways of allowing the business (and sport) to move forward.
 
Judgemental said:
I am prepared to admit I know who the players are for the repeal game and frankly some don't impress me and should be sitting on the bench and/or turned out to grass!
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Personally I have a lot of time for the Repeal Ambassadors who are a distinct breed from the top brass sat on the Repeal Committee.

As for the MPs as JanetGeorge has noted you can invite them till you are blue in the face and your typing fingers have ceased and yet the Labour anti-hunting MPs refuse to see if their hardened views will stand up to reality. The best excuse I had from a now unseated MP was that the kennels fell outside her constituency. This was a classic as the boundary ran pretty much past the kennels!
 
Judgemental said:
I have my hat in the air and the master is blowing Gone Away -

3001 Views and 125 comments

Going back over the forum I am having difficulty in topping that for any thread.
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Sorry your way off NL must hold the record they have nothting better to do than post, and that's coming from someone that contributed to the breeding post that had 690 posts 26,722 views!
 
Simsar said:
Sorry your way off NL must hold the record they have nothting better to do than post, and that's coming from someone that contributed to the breeding post that had 690 posts 26,722 views!
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If we are all going to start posturing on this point, then I must point out that BREEDING comes under a wholly seperate category. Furthermore you have not provided a time frame.

This is HUNTING - in case you have not noticed and therefore a whole host of different protocols apply.

The current tally here is: 140 posts and 3742 views since 11/08/10 at 08:18hrs, now 24/06/10 at 08:36hrs what was your time frame on the relevant breeding post?
 
Simsar said:
Sorry your way off NL must hold the record they have nothting better to do than post, and that's coming from someone that contributed to the breeding post that had 690 posts 26,722 views!
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Sadly Simsar is probably right its the only reason why I started reading and posting! Hopfully you will not see me so much in the winter!

I do believe that this thread would hold the record for the Hunting section.

Back to topic - do you think that this discussion will make a difference? I hope so but I wander how many huntsmen this would actually reach and then how many woudl take on board the comments and act apon them.
 
Paddydou said:
Sadly Simsar is probably right its the only reason why I started reading and posting! Hopfully you will not see me so much in the winter!

I do believe that this thread would hold the record for the Hunting section.

Back to topic - do you think that this discussion will make a difference? I hope so but I wander how many huntsmen this would actually reach and then how many woudl take on board the comments and act apon them.
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Paddy I feel the essence of this thread is that there is an expression of views.

Whether or not anybody takes any heed of the opinions expressed is a matter of conjecture.

However the ability to express them, even if folk disagree is the fundamental of such forums.

Therefore taking an overview, it can be seen by all interested parties that there is an overiding issue concerning being friendly, good manners and providing sufficent information. Thus everybody participating is aware of whos who and whose land they are riding over etc to name but a few points that have come out of this discussion.

Also it is clear that there is an asperation by many to feel 'included'.
 
Judgemental said:
Therefore taking an overview, it can be seen by all interested parties that there is an overiding issue concerning being friendly, good manners and providing sufficent information. Thus everybody participating is aware of whos who and whose land they are riding over etc to name but a few points that have come out of this discussion.

Also it is clear that there is an asperation by many to feel 'included'.
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That makes me laugh TBH. Go and ask a member of the field whose land they're riding over and 90%, maybe more, just won't have a clue and furthermore, won't be interested either except for the fact that they are on it and able to ride over it. When you even get local people who do not know that they hunt over your land what chance has a visitor got and many packs rely on visitors to swell the coffers. It's alright the Master saying today we're hunting over messrs Jones, Smith, Williams and Evans; unless you have boundary signs up to say whose land you're actually standing on NOW, how are you to know without learning the local geography and knowledge before you start which would be too much like hard work for many of the field, they are just wanting a good ride, they won't want to do any homework to have it.
Until you can instil in ALL who hunt, whether mounted or on foot so including beagles and bassets too let alone car followers, that the landowner is the most important part of the public relations needed for hunting, then you haven't got a cat in hell chance.
It's not just the Masters that need to do their homework, it's the fields' too, the field must take some responsibility to learn too not just shrug their shoulders and point to others.
 
From an agent's point of view it is incredibly difficult to keep up with who owns or is farming a particular piece of land. The olden days when Mr Jones farmed a nice block of land at Elm Farm and nothing else are long gone. The land market is also incredibly fluid and can be sold and let on a regular basis. It seems rather unrealistic to expect the field to carry this information about with them.

I would suggest as an alternative that instead behaviour should be exemplary throughout the hunting day. Follow the other horse's tracks exactly instead of chatting with your mates, keep off stewardship strips, avoid trampling growing crops, don't push your way through young hedging plants and above all be polite. You simply cannot know that the person you didn't bother to thank or were totally vile too is the landowner, the managing agent or just a humble foot follower.

Don't tell me none of this happens I have seen it with my own eyes. In fact I have been at the sharp end of rudeness from the mounted field on two occasions, which even from my perspective as a die-hard pro-hunting supporter made me want to shout '**** you then arrogant *******' and join the League!
 
Maesfen said:
That makes me laugh TBH. Go and ask a member of the field whose land they're riding over and 90%, maybe more, just won't have a clue and furthermore, won't be interested either except for the fact that they are on it and able to ride over it. When you even get local people who do not know that they hunt over your land what chance has a visitor got and many packs rely on visitors to swell the coffers. It's alright the Master saying today we're hunting over messrs Jones, Smith, Williams and Evans; unless you have boundary signs up to say whose land you're actually standing on NOW, how are you to know without learning the local geography and knowledge before you start which would be too much like hard work for many of the field, they are just wanting a good ride, they won't want to do any homework to have it.
Until you can instil in ALL who hunt, whether mounted or on foot so including beagles and bassets too let alone car followers, that the landowner is the most important part of the public relations needed for hunting, then you haven't got a cat in hell chance.
It's not just the Masters that need to do their homework, it's the fields' too, the field must take some responsibility to learn too not just shrug their shoulders and point to others.
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Thank you Maesfen, this gives support to my view that there should be pre-season seminars, at which all these things can be discussed and demonstrated. I believe self regulation will generate the need for seminars and not just pre-season but throughout the season.

What is needed is hunting education.

I don't care how long or short this thread is or becomes, it is clear from comments such as those made by Combat_claire above that something needs to be done about properly educating those that hunt.

Frankly I blame the parents! LOL
 
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Judgemental said:
If we are all going to start posturing on this point, then I must point out that BREEDING comes under a wholly seperate category. Furthermore you have not provided a time frame.

This is HUNTING - in case you have not noticed and therefore a whole host of different protocols apply.

The current tally here is: 140 posts and 3742 views since 11/08/10 at 08:18hrs, now 24/06/10 at 08:36hrs what was your time frame on the relevant breeding post?
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LOL How boring is your life??
 
Omg have you not started yet, maybe you should come to us Simsar I mean not Surrey and choose your own pack. You have possibly started something now! JM on tour to find the friendliest pack in the UK.

PS our site is back online.
 
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