Totilas even has special shoes?!

FrodoBeutlin said:
I know plenty of riders on the Continent who genuinely believe it is far too dangerous to put horses out at all. Hence the total lack of paddocks in very many yards including some top ones.

As I said Carl Hester is an exception rather than the rule, I know at least two Olympic riders who believe turnout is just too dangerous and I am sure the majority of competition fit, top dressage horses are not turned out.

I personally like my horses out as regularly as possible and when I choose a yard the availability of turnout is very high up in my list of priorities, but then again I have never spent a six-figure sum on a horse.
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Yes, it may be the norm, but that doesn't mean that they're correct (in my eyes). It was the comment that it's too dangerous to turn any horse out that made me raise my eyebrows.

I only use CH as he had already been brought up in the thread and I don't know enough to comment on other top riders. I accept that people do keep them in and a fit, top horse is a different beast to the majority of those on livery yards. My point is, I suppose, that CH and a few others mentioned here have proved that it is possible to turn a top horse out and it won't automatically die of excitment ;)

I see what you're saying about yard choices and the figure spent on the horse, but in my ideal world, horses should be turned out for some time every day, regardless of price. Realistically, I know that horses worth the vast sums that Toto is will probably be kept in.
 
Nocturnal said:
Pmsl! You haven't met the pony stallion on my yard, blue and white and all of 12hh, but he's convinced he's a mini totilas! :D
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He sounds wicked! I know of a bright orange 12.2hh pony who really honestly actually does move like Toto. If I weren't so tall and didn't have Bruce I would have him like a shot!!
 
Allover said:
Or they could be people who have worked their whole lives with horses and have studied their behaviour in many different enviroments and believe that as soon as you take a horse as a "commodity" you lose any sense of what horses are about and treat them in the most financially sound way possible and then maybe get a huge insurance payoff when the horse is "*********" as a 10 year old and can no longer do its job becuase of the way the owner has looked after it.

They may also be people who have studied equine anatomy and physiology and has a basic knowledge of the principles of flatwork training and why working all muscles CORRECTLY is the only way to keep them sound. Not using important muscle groups when a horse is turned out my arse, its the best way for a horse to loosen up any tight muscles and really stretch his back in a way that they dont when ridden. ETA especially the dressage horses.
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*Shrug* I have no idea what qualifications any of you do or don't have, I'm just speaking from my own experience. Have *you* ever done a similar experiment? Comparing the training of a horse with turn out and then the same horse without? I have, and I've already explained the results.
 
Nocturnal said:
*Shrug* I have no idea what qualifications any of you do or don't have, I'm just speaking from my own experience. Have *you* ever done a similar experiment? Comparing the training of a horse with turn out and then the same horse without? I have, and I've already explained the results.
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Yes i have. But it is not just about turn out, it is about their whole managment routine.
 
nikkimariet said:
He sounds wicked! I know of a bright orange 12.2hh pony who really honestly actually does move like Toto. If I weren't so tall and didn't have Bruce I would have him like a shot!!
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Heh, sounds like our guy! Really impressive totilas-like forleg action... do you want him?? He chased me + a mare down a path on the weekend, broke straight through a post and rail fence... and he'd probably kill you if you sat on him! Apart from that he's great though :D
 
amandap said:
That's what I call it. :D

Mmmmm, I'm afraid I don't want to even see a beautiful Totilas if it means he has to be a 'slave' to any other living being, even a human one. What is different about horses that locking them in a room most of the time and control what they do the rest of the time is ok but if we do that to humans we're enslaving them? :confused:

Don't forget you used the word slave and just for the record, I never said anything about horses and mental illness on this thread.
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All horses are legally 'property'. And so long as that's the case, some won't be turned out. Totilas has the very best care, and I'm not convinced that turnout would significantly improve his mental wellbeing. He's a stallion, after all, and would most likely have to go out alone.
 
Nocturnal said:
Heh, sounds like our guy! Really impressive totilas-like forleg action... do you want him?? He chased me + a mare down a path on the weekend, broke straight through a post and rail fence... and he'd probably kill you if you sat on him! Apart from that he's great though :D
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Dammit....I need to find a small child with balls of steel that I can duct tape to its saddle....
 
Nocturnal said:
All horses are legally 'property'. And so long as that's the case, some won't be turned out. Totilas has the very best care, and I'm not convinced that turnout would significantly improve his mental wellbeing. He's a stallion, after all, and would most likely have to go out alone.
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No this argument has no sway with me in the slightest. We may well 'own' other living creatures in our terms but we don't have a right imo to own them ethically or morally. That is in the sense that they have a duty to us purely because we 'own' them. That they must abide by our rules of life however far removed from their needs and lifestyle.

Nah, that's not horseownership to me. :(
 
amymay said:
Really? Surely it's a two min job??
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Morning: Put feed in stables. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses. Wait for horses to finish eating. Put muzzles/head collars on horses. Oil feet. Walk up 5 acres, put 2 horses in one field, put 2 horses in another field. Switch on fencing. Walk back down 5 acres.

Evening: Get 2 horses from one field, walk down field with them. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Go back up field. Catch other 2. Walk back down field. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses.

Not everyone has horses that can be chucked in/dragged out a field at a seconds notice, sorry!
 
Nocturnal said:
Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
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A polite list of questions if I may:
  • Which muscles aren't needed for dressage?
  • Why is working muscles which aren't needed for dressage necessarily detrimental? I can't see that, especially if its not for very long periods.
  • Why is "proper rest" after excercise better served by being in a stable and not turned out? Surely wandering around grazing (assuming this rather than hooning around) allows effective drainage of toxins and gentle exercise is good?

Shilasdair said:
Hmmm
So where does all of this turnout/no turnout debate leave me with my poor horse (she's allergic to grass)? :p
S :D
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Off topic, but you asked a while ago about ideas of what to feed her. What did you eventually decide upon?
 
AshTay said:
How do YOU know a) isn't true for my horse???? lol.

Does that matter anyway? Totilas is a horse!!! Really, he is!!! He's not some sort of super-equine. He eats and poos and pees. He probably loves to gallop about (if he's ever allowed) and would enjoy a roll in a meadow in the sunshine if he could.

Is it ok to treat a horse like a machine because he's got a high price tag on him???

And anyway, it's not just about Totilas, no horse should be treated as anything other than a horse no matter how much he/she costs.
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They're all only worth meat money when they're dead no matter what their price tag is when alive.

Do they never turn him loose in a school at least, poor sod if they can't even do that.
 
surely if it takes so long to turn out and bring in/prepare for riding you'd think, given the cost of the horse you would just employ more staff :rolleyes:

I read this thread when it was just the original question.. my automatic reaction was :eek: the horse needs to have boots on all 4 legs and feet just to have a bite of grass, I struggle to imagine how having boots on so much would do the legs much good, though I have a 'tough' ginger native that goes scabby if he even looks at a boot!

In fact I think I have solved the problem, re I think weezy's comment earlier.. ban warmbloods from dressage make everyone do it on welsh cobs then they can just chuck them out in the field and stop worrying.

Just thought aswell, racehorses generally get an annual holiday in the field or doing something a bit different. Does the same happen with dressage horses or no? Genuine question that one as I don't know the answer!
 
DragonSlayer said:
What about being able to run and jump about, kicking it's heels in the air?

What about having a roll, and laying in the sun?

What about it's natural way of 'foraging' about to find food?

Look at chickens, all they want to do is scratch and peck about, flapping their wings out sometimes. Stuck in a battery cage, they have no hope.

A horse in the stable 24/7 surely is like the battery hen, in a similar way.

I don't care HOW well-looked after it is, you are removing at least SOME of the natural ways the horse lives.

.
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Agree 100% with this. Given that he now spends most of his time confined I suspect he does freak every time he is let loose - either through fear as he can longer cope or through sheer 'I'm freeeeeee' exuberance. He is conditioned now to accept his life as the norm - doesnt mean it is right or even acceptable but then it all comes down to them protecting their investment.. And I bet the PR machine is well trained enough to say he hates being out....
 
HashRouge said:
I'm assuming she meant that if people own horses that cost as much as Totilas, then surely they can afford to employ the staff to turn them out. So I doubt it was directed at you!
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The succession of posts before makes me feel a little dubious about that. But nevermind.
 
nikkimariet said:
Morning: Put feed in stables. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses. Wait for horses to finish eating. Put muzzles/head collars on horses. Oil feet. Walk up 5 acres, put 2 horses in one field, put 2 horses in another field. Switch on fencing. Walk back down 5 acres.

Evening: Get 2 horses from one field, walk down field with them. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Go back up field. Catch other 2. Walk back down field. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses.

Not everyone has horses that can be chucked in/dragged out a field at a seconds notice, sorry!
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Ah, my bad.

Try doing that for 7 or 8. Now that does take some time ;)
 
no not you nikki, I did mean in totilas' situation, you can do your own donkey work :p :D

I just didn't take that as valid reasoning for a horse not having turnout on a professional yard as it is all just part of their care and hence isn't just an inconvenience sort of thing
 
amymay said:
Lord, I have never read so much tosh in all my life.

All the pro riders I know turn they horses out. And guess what - just like old Helen happy hackers horses, they don't injure themselves. Amazing that. And quite possibly due to the fact that going is out is the norm - not the exception, so they don't explode everytime they are turned out.
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I read that Alf (Mistral Hojris) isn't turned out either as he kept injuring himself.

Yes, in an ideal world, horses would be turned out in company -mine certainly are - (how many of you complaining about the way Totilas is kept also have individual turnout?) but the economics of it dictate that Toto is kept as 'safe' as possible.
 
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