Totilas even has special shoes?!
- Thread starter kyanya
- Start date
EstherYoung
Well-Known Member
Dear lordie I've just waded through all of this thread.....
Re Turnout. I don't doubt for a moment that Totilas wants for nothing and that he has a number of minions primping and preening him. He's too famous for anything else. Where the welfare issue creeps in is for the horses that aren't quite as famous as Totilas - do they all get several handgrazing sessions each day and multiple work sessions too? Or do they just get stuck on the horsewalker if they're lucky?
It is interesting looking at the differences between disciplines. There was a thread on here not long ago where some of the eventers were saying that they want their horses turned out from a young age on challenging terrain so that they toughened up and developed that innate 'horse sense' and awareness of what's under their feet that would keep them out of trouble cross country.
I'm an endurance rider and the only endurance horses I know who are kept in 24/7 are those with issues that prevent turnout. Virtually everything else right up to international level is out either full time or part time. I need my horse's joints and ligaments to be tough and that's just not going to happen stuck in a stable - I now have a sound 25yo who won ERs when he was younger, all off a regime of living out 24/7. My thinking is that whatever fitness I was able to put into him, if he could add to that by moving around the rest of the time all well and good. My babypony that I have in the wings, he's out full time with other babyponies because I also want him to be tough, and they spend their lives climbing all over each other. On the flip side, the grey in my sig was a top level show ayrab in his day and spent his entire life between 6 months and 7 years living in. It has taken us a long time to get him properly fit as he missed out on so much physical and mental development during his formative years.
Re Heart bars. If you were looking at a stallion for your mare and a horse was brought out that was wearing heart bars, what would your reaction be? Particularly if it was a young stallion...
Re Noseband and browband not matching. Terrible crime. The worst
Re Turnout. I don't doubt for a moment that Totilas wants for nothing and that he has a number of minions primping and preening him. He's too famous for anything else. Where the welfare issue creeps in is for the horses that aren't quite as famous as Totilas - do they all get several handgrazing sessions each day and multiple work sessions too? Or do they just get stuck on the horsewalker if they're lucky?
It is interesting looking at the differences between disciplines. There was a thread on here not long ago where some of the eventers were saying that they want their horses turned out from a young age on challenging terrain so that they toughened up and developed that innate 'horse sense' and awareness of what's under their feet that would keep them out of trouble cross country.
I'm an endurance rider and the only endurance horses I know who are kept in 24/7 are those with issues that prevent turnout. Virtually everything else right up to international level is out either full time or part time. I need my horse's joints and ligaments to be tough and that's just not going to happen stuck in a stable - I now have a sound 25yo who won ERs when he was younger, all off a regime of living out 24/7. My thinking is that whatever fitness I was able to put into him, if he could add to that by moving around the rest of the time all well and good. My babypony that I have in the wings, he's out full time with other babyponies because I also want him to be tough, and they spend their lives climbing all over each other. On the flip side, the grey in my sig was a top level show ayrab in his day and spent his entire life between 6 months and 7 years living in. It has taken us a long time to get him properly fit as he missed out on so much physical and mental development during his formative years.
Re Heart bars. If you were looking at a stallion for your mare and a horse was brought out that was wearing heart bars, what would your reaction be? Particularly if it was a young stallion...
Re Noseband and browband not matching. Terrible crime. The worst
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Calm down, I wasn't patronising you, it was meant to be a helpful comment. You said you oiled your horses hooves, not me.
AmyMay
Situation normal
mcnaughty
Well-Known Member
You really need to get down off your high horse - I actually believe that both methods can work. It is the people that have no idea of good horsemanship or are lacking a modicom of common sense on both sides that really get my goat - oh and those like you who are just plain arrogant.
Last edited by a moderator:
ester
Not slacking multitasking
am still interested to know whether they get any holidays/downtime like the racing tbs?
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
As a general rule I don't think many top dressage horses get proper "holidays", but after big events (say, after the WEG etc) they would normally get a few weeks of very light work.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
thanks FB 
. I just thought it might put a different spin on things if they did!
. I just thought it might put a different spin on things if they did!
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
You forgot the all important turnout is detrimental to muscle development....
A quick HHO search shows I'm not the only one who's noticed that horses muscle up better without turnout...
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=439083
AshTay
Well-Known Member
But all those people on that thread did loads of things with their horses everyday when they were in - half hour walker, hour ridden, massage, etc. No wonder they muscled up well and were working nicely - it would be worrying if they weren't! As someone pointed out -if they had turnout as well would they be even better?!?
And in my humble opinion, how well a horse behaves during turnout all comes down to routine. If they have the same routine everyday and know what to expect they're settled and happy. If they stay in all week and only go out at weekends or for the odd day here and there then of course you're risking injury. If you always feed your horse when you bring it in then of course it's going to hang around the gate wanting to come in! At the same time, a horse that is constantly in adapts to that routine and will appear happy.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Anyone fancy a coffee and some soldiers and eggs??
ForeverBroke_
Well-Known Member
Having just waded my way through this, yes please tallyho!
I don't understand how you can assume that happy hackers know nothing/little about competing. Its not rocket science, and just because they hack doesn't mean they dont have any common sense/ability to understand something different.
This thread has got to be the thinnest argument I've read for a while..
I don't understand how you can assume that happy hackers know nothing/little about competing. Its not rocket science, and just because they hack doesn't mean they dont have any common sense/ability to understand something different.
This thread has got to be the thinnest argument I've read for a while..
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
Yes, and Totilas gets all that too... obviously that would be necessary for a horse that's not turned out
. I don't see what turnout could add to the horse's musculature and willingness to work.Not sure what this relates to - nothing I've said, I'm sure. Either way, I maintain that it's pure blindness to believe that you know how every horse will behave in a given circumstance. Horses are individuals.
If they're happy, then what's the problem?
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
Serenity087
Well-Known Member
Can I just say...
Poor thing has the most rediculous looking bridle EVER! No wonder he spends all day inside, he's ashamed of the thing!! That noseband is too thick and WHAT is that browband? Looks like something from the Katie Price range...
Poor thing has the most rediculous looking bridle EVER! No wonder he spends all day inside, he's ashamed of the thing!! That noseband is too thick and WHAT is that browband? Looks like something from the Katie Price range...
charlie76
Well-Known Member
That was my thread and I still stand by what I say. My horse ( who is still in) 12 weeks later, if a different horse to what he was. He looks better, his has a better attitude and oddly enough is far less reactive and spooky then he ever was when he was out.
As I said, it is hard work though.
With regards to routine, I had this conversation with some one this morning who commented on how happy my horse seemed even though he was in all the time. I told them a horse is happy with routine, whether that routine is in or out in irrelevant, its the routine that stops the stress.
As I said, it is hard work though.
With regards to routine, I had this conversation with some one this morning who commented on how happy my horse seemed even though he was in all the time. I told them a horse is happy with routine, whether that routine is in or out in irrelevant, its the routine that stops the stress.
Last edited:
ThePony
Well-Known Member
On the turnout being detrimental to muscle build up - I wonder if that is because schooling sessions can be thought of as being more similar to weights sessions, with turnout/longer hacks etc having more areobic exercise. In that case I would expect a horse who has a routine made up of predominantly schooling and stable rest to be more (not better!) muscled than an equivalent horse that has schooling sessions and turnout. Perhaps like the difference between weight lifters and marathon runners?!
I know I don't have the exercise physiology knowledge to have a well developed theory, but I do wonder if the vauge reason above could have something to do with this idea of turnout being detrimental to some horses development - depending on what the aim of their development is? Hence those that are working horses for eventing/endurance which places a greater emphasis on areobic fitness than eg dressage which relys more on strength and balance and much practise of certain movements.
(before I am totally lynched I am not saying one horse has more desirable fitness than the other, more fitness for a particular career!).
I know I don't have the exercise physiology knowledge to have a well developed theory, but I do wonder if the vauge reason above could have something to do with this idea of turnout being detrimental to some horses development - depending on what the aim of their development is? Hence those that are working horses for eventing/endurance which places a greater emphasis on areobic fitness than eg dressage which relys more on strength and balance and much practise of certain movements.
(before I am totally lynched I am not saying one horse has more desirable fitness than the other, more fitness for a particular career!).
AshTay
Well-Known Member
Yes, and Totilas gets all that too... obviously that would be necessary for a horse that's not turned out
Your argument was that turnout was detrimental to the correct muscle development. All that the thread you posted supported was that horses being kept in could achieve good muscle development but having read that thread I would say that it had nothing to do with no turnout and everything to do with being worked more!
It relates to the thread you posted and this thread - my opinion based on my experience of why some (not all!) horses either appear to dislike turnout or to behave dangerously when turned out.
I don't claim to know how every horse will behave in a given circumstance anymore than you are claiming to know that keeping in leads to better muscle development for every horse!!
But I will argue that all horses should be given the right for some turnout in a way that suits them as an individual horse.
"Appears" to be happy. I'll accept that it's all relative and if a horse has never known turnout then it doesn't know what it's missing and if every other aspect of it's care is top notch then great. But that, to me, still doesn't make it right!!!
Last edited:
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
They aren't worked more, though. They're worked the same, but taken out for hand grazing etc. My argument was that horses kept in muscle up better than ones turned out. Its what I've personally observed, and some other people have too.
Muscle development is a matter of biochemistry which reacts in the same or very similar way in every horse... a horse's psychological reaction to turn out is not like this. Your argument for turnout for every horse seems to be based on your own personal preferance. That's fine for you, but I think its unreasonable to argue in favour of imposing your views on everybody else.
My horse goes out in a herd from 8am-6pm every day, so has a lot of experience of turnout. He 'appears' perfectly happy if kept in. Why should I not believe what I see? Horses don't purposefully decieve us, if he was unhappy I'm sure I would see *some* kind of sign.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Can't add anything to this intelligent reply.
AshTay
Well-Known Member
Actually that's not true at all. Yes, it's a matter of biochemistry but it's totally wrong to say that's the same for every horse. Genetically, they're all slightly different which has an effect even at this level. Why do some horses pile on fat at the mere sight of grass while others struggle to maintain weight? It might not be as much as variation in the psychological reactions but it's still enough to mean that YOU can't generalise either.
It's not MY personal preference. If you actually read what i've said in previous posts MY personal preference is that every horse is given the option of turnout in a way that suits them and that they are treated in a way that is best for THEM, not compromised because they're deemed too valuable to be allowed to do anything else!
You're contradicting yourself! Your horse goes out everyday you say. But when he's kept in he appears happy - when do you keep him in?? You're not making much sense there. If what you mean is that he gets "holidays" where he gets regular turnout but is kept in when he's being prepared for competition then to me that's fine. It's the "no turnout ever" that I disagree with.
Jimbol
Well-Known Member
Horses by nature are claustrophobic, this can be altered but that nature is always there, they are also social but we deprive this and the natural behaviour changes.
We can also look at Nevzarov and his isolation of horses in order to create a dependance on him, although he hates bits he sees the nature of horses as primitive and counter productive.
A horse who cannot socialise or cope with open spaces (without restraint) is suffering some kind of mental abnormality and this should be addressed. We all make excuses to justify the compromises we make for our horses, but rather than justify them we should do our best to eliminate them.
A number of the main issues withn equine health are production diseases such as colic, laminitis etc... and sports injuries, there is plenty of evidence that to allow your horse a life that is closer to their nature will lead to a happier healthier horse who is likely to live longer.
We can also look at Nevzarov and his isolation of horses in order to create a dependance on him, although he hates bits he sees the nature of horses as primitive and counter productive.
A horse who cannot socialise or cope with open spaces (without restraint) is suffering some kind of mental abnormality and this should be addressed. We all make excuses to justify the compromises we make for our horses, but rather than justify them we should do our best to eliminate them.
A number of the main issues withn equine health are production diseases such as colic, laminitis etc... and sports injuries, there is plenty of evidence that to allow your horse a life that is closer to their nature will lead to a happier healthier horse who is likely to live longer.
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
Fat storage and muscle development are quite different. All horses lay on muscle in the same or very similar (as stated in original post) way. This is science that can be generalised on.
If the horses in question are happy with their routine, who are you to impose your values on their owners? If the horses aren't happy unless turned out, then yes - they should be turned out. But if they can be happy and healthy with no turn out then I fail to see the major welfare issue.
I am not contradicting myself. My horse's routine is to be turned out daily at 8am in a herd. There are times, of course, that he has to be kept in. Whether that be for physical reasons or because of the weather.
AshTay
Well-Known Member
I give up. For the record I still totally disagree with you (although you still don't seem able to see my point) but this is going round in circles or like arguing with a lamp post.
Nocturnal
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Some people just can't accept that their way is not the only way.
FanyDuChamp
Well-Known Member
I know you said "some cases" but I think it is more about horses being treated as individuals.My lad is permanently in between end of Sept and end of April/beginning of May. He is NOT mentally ill he is a woss who hates the rain, windy or temperatures below 60 degrees.If we put him out he brings himself in jumping the fence or taking the gate off and goes back to his stable. He makes his own choice in this instance.
ETA Fany is out as much as possible because that is what suits her. Suit the horse not money or convenience
FDC
Last edited:
amandap
Well-Known Member
Agree with this. Never thought of the Nevzorov angle but creating a dependence is obvious now you've pointed that out.
Instituionalization mentioned earlier in the thread is another important aspect of 'control' imo.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
Come on guys, surely the sensible answer is that each horse has a different personality so different needs. Some are happy to be in all the time and some are happy to be out. So each to their own.
We had a horse on livery that was agrophobic, if you turned him out and panic and jump over or through a fence to come in. Surely no one thinks we should have forced this horse to stay out as it was 'natural' for him?
We had a horse on livery that was agrophobic, if you turned him out and panic and jump over or through a fence to come in. Surely no one thinks we should have forced this horse to stay out as it was 'natural' for him?
Jimbol
Well-Known Member
In this case it seems your pony likes to be out though fusses about weather, but he goes out when it suits, what would be interesting is how he would behave in a field with a good shelter, so he could choose to go in or out and how he would behave then.
I used to work with a former cossack stallion who used to behavbe like this in rain, you could spend large periods of time stuck under a tree if you were caught in the rain. over time however he decided grass was worth getting wet for and is fine with it, in the Ukrain he would not often have seen rain as they had a fully sheltered complex.
AshTay
Well-Known Member
I agree with this. But I do think it's short sighted to think that some horses are just happy to be in. If they don't know anything different then of course they appear happy. As I mentioned before we also have a horse on our yard like this - he doesn't get turned out. But it's wrong that he's ended up like this (because he wasn't given the option of turnout until he was in his teens and then it blew his brains) and THAT is the issue.
Given how much of an effect on horses our influence has, it's surely very naive to think that some horses just grow up to detest turnout. (And I'm sure someone will now drag up their own example of an agoraphobic foal...).