Totilas even has special shoes?!

yes a foal will not be born agropobic, that is the result of human intervention, why do people not realise this, plus there are many related health issues regarding stabled horses which do not occur with horses on turnout.

I do not like factory farming so i certainly do not like factory kept horses... i mean those battery hens know no better, or inddor pigs, maybe all those kids in china making trainers in sweatshops are happy, or african diamond miners, who are we to say it is wrong?!?!?!
 
Just fancied adding my opinion to this lovely thread.
I used to work for a big name showjumper when I was at 6th form. Their horses were in 24/7 and were miserable. That said, they were self destructing in the field, and for horses kept exclusively for profit and competition, having them out was simply not an option as their head wouldn't be in the game.
I would personally never keep my horses in 24/7- but then my horses are hunters and worth comparatively little to anyone but me, and MY horses are better for their turn out, which is 24/7 during the summer, and 7 hours a day when they are stabled.
I find this thread has got pretty ugly, people will have different opinions on the matter, and as there are only a very small proportion of riders on this forum "big enough" to be in the competition melting pot, really it is just a lot of women with handbags at dawn...
 
AshTay said:
I agree with this. But I do think it's short sighted to think that some horses are just happy to be in. If they don't know anything different then of course they appear happy. As I mentioned before we also have a horse on our yard like this - he doesn't get turned out. But it's wrong that he's ended up like this (because he wasn't given the option of turnout until he was in his teens and then it blew his brains) and THAT is the issue.

Given how much of an effect on horses our influence has, it's surely very naive to think that some horses just grow up to detest turnout. (And I'm sure someone will now drag up their own example of an agoraphobic foal...).
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My lad does not do turnout in winter but is out 24/7 in summer. So how is that a mental issue? He does not have agoraphobia, he is not insecure in the field, he is not institutionalised. He hates bad weather and likes his creature comforts. He is an intelligent being and has expressed his opinions clearly. Why is that a problem? Surely he does not have to conform because it is what other horses prefer? Surely he is entitled to make choices?

There are many horses who prefer the warmth of their stables, especially the kind of stable my lad has. 20 x 16 stable, friends either side, no solid walls, who he can easily interact with and no rain. Captain's idea of winter heaven!

I don't know about agoraphobic foals but I am open minded enough to want my horse to be happy and secure, so suit his turn out to his choices. Just as I do my mare.

Some horses do not want turnout, accept it; it does not mean they have "issues" sometimes it might just mean they know their own minds and are secure enough to express it. If no/ limited turnout is the horse's preference then the caring owner has to try to accommodate its wishes.

FDC
 
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charlie76 said:
Come on guys, surely the sensible answer is that each horse has a different personality so different needs. Some are happy to be in all the time and some are happy to be out. So each to their own.
We had a horse on livery that was agrophobic, if you turned him out and panic and jump over or through a fence to come in. Surely no one thinks we should have forced this horse to stay out as it was 'natural' for him?
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Precisely this.

I just can't understand why some people refuse to accept that a horse can be happy if its kept in.

On my yard there are 8 horses:

Mine - likes going out (for the social aspect; wouldn't be bothered if turnout was individual), but happy to stay in.

One is as happy in as out (and often prefers being in). Another is a complete unhandleable fruit loop if out 24/7, but the sweetest thing if kept in. The rest are raring to get out in the morning, and lingering around the gate in the evening.

All horses are different, and some are happy to stay in. Its not that they don't know any different, its just their preference. What is so hard to accept about this? :confused:
 
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Fany Du Champ said:
My lad does not do turnout in winter but is out 24/7 in summer. So how is that a mental issue? He does not have agoraphobia, he is not insecure in the field, he is not institutionalised. He hates bad weather and likes his creature comforts. He is an intelligent being and has expressed his opinions clearly. Why is that a problem? Surely he does not have to conform because it is what other horses prefer? Surely he is entitled to make choices?

There are many horses who prefer the warmth of their stables, especially the kind of stable my lad has. 20 x 16 stable, friends either side, no solid walls, who he can easily interact with and no rain. Captain's idea of winter heaven!

I don't know about agoraphobic foals but I am open minded enough to want my horse to be happy and secure, so suit his turn out to his choices. Just as I do my mare.

Some horses do not want turnout, accept it; it does not mean they have "issues" sometimes it might just mean they know their own minds and are secure enough to express it. If no/ limited turnout is the horse's preference then the caring owner has to try to accommodate its wishes.

FDC
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<bangs head against wall> Your horse has the choice. He's not scared of turnout because he doesn't know what it is. Although if I were being bloody minded (which I'm not) I could suggest that maybe your horse's dislike of rain stems from being left out in it unprotected in the past?!! Or that he know's he'll get fed more in the winter so chooses to just stay in the stable where the food is and cut out the bother of going to/from the field and it just so happens that that also means he won't have to stand out in the nasty rain (do you have a field shelter btw?)!!

What I'm trying to say (and have said) is that ALL horses should have the option of turnout in a way that suits them. Be that a couple of hours or more a day to stretch legs and have a roll, a "holiday" period of turnout at the end of the season or 24/7 turnout all year round.
 
Jimbol said:
We can also look at Nevzarov and his isolation of horses in order to create a dependance on him, although he hates bits he sees the nature of horses as primitive and counter productive.
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Ooh can you tell me more about Nevzarov? I know of his aversion to bits and people riding horses (and recent petition to stop all horse sport) but didn't know his training methods include isolation of horses!

amymay said:
You forgot the all important turnout is detrimental to muscle development....;)
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My bad. Will ammend. :D

Nocturnal said:
A quick HHO search shows I'm not the only one who's noticed that horses muscle up better without turnout...
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=439083
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Forgive me I'm supposed to be doing something else and not on HHO, so I won't take the time to read the link just now. One could argue some more about why muscles appear bulkier when a horse is kept in, but I'll bow out of any more debates on this thread now.

Learnings to date (for the lazy people who don't want to read the whole thread)

  1. Totilas has special shoes
  2. Totilas doesn't get turnout
  3. His bad feet mean he shouldn't be bred from
  4. His bad feet are nothing to do with his breeding performance
  5. He should have more turnout
  6. He shouldn't have any turnout
  7. His browband and noseband don't match
  8. No.7 is not a major welfare problem as previously claimed
  9. This wasn't previously claimed in a serious manner
  10. Actually, thinking about it, it is a terrible tragedy
  11. The scenario described in no. 5 is a welfare problem
  12. The scenario described in no. 6 is a major welfare problem
  13. You should say what you mean
  14. Things come across differently in the written word
  15. Shills has a horse who is allergic to grass.
  16. muscles develop better when your horse is kept in a stable
  17. muscles develop better when your horse is kept out
  18. The longer a thread gets the more likely it is that people make a point already made, and therefore the longer a thread gets the proportion of additional useful material diminisies
  19. People STILL won't be told, darn it
  20. Anyone who disagrees is an anarchist/fluffy bunny hugger/ cruel and terrible person (delete as appropriate)
  21. According to Bodwins law, its only a matter of time before Hitler and the Nazis is mentioned.
 
Naturally said:
[*]According to Bodwins law, its only a matter of time before Hitler and the Nazis is mentioned.
[/LIST]
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I think we can replace Hitler/Nazis with Nevzorov for the purpose of horsey debate :D When I saw him mentioned in one of the posts, I thought ''that's it, it can't get any better now''... I mean, the man is a total fruit loop, why would anybody want to refer to him?
 
AshTay said:
<bangs head against wall>
Please continue, you may knock some sense in and that will enable you to read properly


Your horse has the choice. He's not scared of turnout because he doesn't know what it is.
24/ 7 turnout in summer, he knows what it is and makes his own choices.

Although if I were being bloody minded (which I'm not)
Really?
I could suggest that maybe your horse's dislike of rain stems from being left out in it unprotected in the past?!! Or that he know's he'll get fed more in the winter so chooses to just stay in the stable where the food is and cut out the bother of going to/from the field and it just so happens that that also means he won't have to stand out in the nasty rain (do you have a field shelter btw?)!!
Yes there is shelter, he has plenty of haylage in the field and he is always rugged in winter, he is a WB and feels the cold.

What I'm trying to say (and have said) is that ALL horses should have the option of turnout in a way that suits them.
So we agree, what suits them not what suits people on a forum think is best for your horse, be it a famous one or a pet one

Be that a couple of hours or more a day to stretch legs and have a roll, a "holiday" period of turnout at the end of the season or 24/7 turnout all year round.
Click to expand...
Some horses don't want to go out, live with it! My lad gets his exercise in the indoor arena and then would happily gallop back to his stable if allowed, not even a sideways glance at the fields and his friends who are out.

FDC
 
Nevzorov. A strange man imo. I use his photos for impact about abuse/misuse of bits. He is into domination as far as I can see and even wears the leathers to go with it. So is a strange mix and has evolved to be anti bit, saddles and even riding I believe.
I have searched and searched for the scientific study he sights about blood supply being hampered under saddle and girth within 10 (or is it 20?) minutes but haven't been able to find it.
I will be interested in Jimbols take on him too. :)
 
martlin said:
I think we can replace Hitler/Nazis with Nevzorov for the purpose of horsey debate :D When I saw him mentioned in one of the posts, I thought ''that's it, it can't get any better now''... I mean, the man is a total fruit loop, why would anybody want to refer to him?
Click to expand...

Nevzarov offers an interesting case in this concept, he demonstrates the foundation of most ignorance towards animals; anthropromorphism.

At the end of the day they are horses, amnd what given the choice do horses do? unless of course we decide to make them do something else (which in fairness is the main reason why we own them).

you cannot improve on nature but you sure as hell can destroy it.
 
martlin said:
Did you know that Nevzorov, with the idea of banning riding, has decided to teach the horses to read Latin instead? *snort* :D
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Lol! :D :rolleyes: Tut, he could at least teach them something practical like mucking out or to poo in one place. :p

Second Jimbol's statement about nature. :)
 
martlin said:
Did you know that Nevzorov, with the idea of banning riding, has decided to teach the horses to read Latin instead? *snort* :D
Click to expand...

spit.gif

Can his horses already read English, then??
 
FDC - sorry, just re-read a bit of what I wrote and it didn't come across how it was meant...
"Your horse has the choice. He's not scared of turnout because he doesn't know what it is."

I didn't mean he's not scared of turnout because he's never had turnout (he has!), I meant the reason he chooses to stay in isn't because he's scared of the unknown (turnout). A horse that has never been out would be scared of being out but yours knows what turnout is and chooses to stay in. If that makes sense.

And there's no need to be rude. You say we agree on the point that all horses should have turnout if it suits them at the same time slating me for saying that I think all horses should have the option of turnout THAT SUITS THEM. What I totally disagree with is NEVER BEING GIVEN THAT OPTION!!!
 
martlin said:
I'm sure he will move on to English in due course, he does things properly, you know - an allround education, with Latin being the foundation, other languages will follow ;)
Not sure what his take on the queen of all sciences, the mathematics, is :rolleyes::D
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:D I'm sure he'll move on to that in due course!

Perhaps he also gives his horses menus so they have an option on what they have for dinner?? :p
 
I believe that horses should be turned out where possible, I also have read that they have tried to turn Totilas out in the past and he proved a danger to himself by going berserk so now they don't, he is just hand grazed.
In breeding competition horses over many years I also think we have changed their behavior to a certain extent as we constantly breed from the ones that suit our purpose best (and not necessarily the ones with the quietist teperament) and lets face it a top competition horse is not always the easist to handle and most people couldn't ride one side of them.
To an extent 'horses for courses' and its a shame they will not all plod to the field happily, but to say not turning them out is cruel is I think a little harsh, after all if you say put Totilas in the field and he injured his tendons badly where would he end up? on box rest for months with no work and even less time out of his stable! :D
 
At darley stud they learnt to turn the broodmares out first in their paddocks in a round pen, and then introduce them to larger spaces... so if it works for racehorses i am sure it could work for Totilas and horses like him, just takes a little thought.
 
glitterbug said:
I believe that horses should be turned out where possible, I also have read that they have tried to turn Totilas out in the past and he proved a danger to himself by going berserk so now they don't, he is just hand grazed.

To an extent 'horses for courses' and its a shame they will not all plod to the field happily, but to say not turning them out is cruel is I think a little harsh, after all if you say put Totilas in the field and he injured his tendons badly where would he end up? on box rest for months with no work and even less time out of his stable! :D
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Both these factors I already pointed out and have since been called rude, arrogant, a knob and a few other things. I truly wouldn't bother if I were you; none of these lot can agree to disagree because someone has to be right.....

*wanders back off to the sane haven of CR*
 
I wonder if I am the only geek who has been searching through the scientific journals for studies on the effect of turnout on muscle development in horses (as a personal trainer I couldn't answer it, so had to look! I understood that Nocturnals thought was partly that the horse would not get the right kind of rest to allow the muscles to recover and develop, although I stand to be corrected).

In humans, what is detrimental to muscle building or maintenance is insufficient rest, however, this would mean say weight training at a high weight on successive days, without a rest day in between...perhaps the same as asking a horse to perform passage day after day when he is just learning the movement. Low level exercise, or training a different muscle group is what is recommended here, rather than complete rest, plus ensuring the body is correctly fuelled with sufficient protein and carbohydrate to rebuild the damaged muscle fibres (in humans, too little carbs and the body starts to metabolise muscle tissue as an alternative fuel source to glycogen, leading to a reduction in muscle tissue and an increase in acidity in the blood - hence the atkins diet being terrible for you!).

I found a study today that stated that in groups of TBs tested who were galloped twice a week, their rate of glycogen recovery was not affected either by walking or cantering on their non-galloping days, so the extra exercise given by turnout should not negatively affect muscle development as they are not reducing the glycogen available to the horse. It also focuses on different muscle groups to those required for advanced dressage so should not affect the rest that the big 'collecting' muscles get.

I'm still looking though as Nocturnal got me thinking! (and I know it's irrelevant, but mine is turned out, so was the Badminton and Burghley horse I groomed for, and the 500,000GPB show horses that I groomed for in America - if we couldn't get them out we would let them have a blast in the arena, but all my employers have been pretty chilled out about their horses.)
 
In terms of muscular development, I suspect it is more that horses may develop muscles which are undesirable, under their necks for instance, because they might stand to attention and look at stuff. They may also learn to move in a more economic and less desirable way, as they charge about balancing themselves naturally. They may get grass glands, or in some way be prevented from rollkur, they might become placid and amenable rather than highly charged and explosive.
 
KatPT - Yes, that was one of the causes I suspected was behind the effect that I've noticed, also I think with elements siennamum has described. I'm theorising about an effect I've already noticed in practice (and some other people I know have too) rather than just postulating about possible effects of reduced turnout.
 
siennamum said:
In terms of muscular development, I suspect it is more that horses may develop muscles which are undesirable, under their necks for instance, because they might stand to attention and look at stuff. They may also learn to move in a more economic and less desirable way, as they charge about balancing themselves naturally. They may get grass glands, or in some way be prevented from rollkur, they might become placid and amenable rather than highly charged and explosive.
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:D All good for us humans who want a particular 'look'. ;)

Interesting about the tb studies. :)
 
I don't really want to get into the turn out/ no turnout debate TBH, but there is one thing fairly obvious to me that seems not to have been mentioned:

horses are naturally designed to carry most of their weight at the front, what we call on the forehand - it is us who teach them to shift their weight and balance behind and sit them on their hocks, so I can quite easily see how freedom and prolonged turnout can be detrimental to horse's way of going and its musculature.
 
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