Totilas even has special shoes?!

Spudlet said:
Oh now, do shut up Ashtay. You're very unimportant, and probably quite poor, you great plebian:p How dare you have an opinion!

:D:D
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owkaaaay :D

Someone (can't possibly say who) suggested that nothing could be done by people like me and my fellow plebs. It's not going to happen overnight but collectively we could start to make our voices heard by doing simple things such as buying merchandise and products endorsed by the riders who treat their horses how we like to see horses treated and by ignoring anything to do with riders who don't treat their horses *properly*. Just an idea. Many riders rely on sponsors who sponsor riders to get their products sold so if their chosen rider isn't popular with the people they're targetting their product at then.....
 
amandap said:
Please point me to evidence for this 'detrimental' effect on muscle development? Are there any studies on this?
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Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
 
I stopped having a lot of faith in the "he's too valuable to turn out" argument when I saw this photo in the racing post. Yep, it's Kauto and Denman!

11841.jpg
 
Nocturnal said:
Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
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Excuse me? I said that SOME horses that don't like turnout are institutionalised, and SOME of those could well be mentally ill - and I stand by that.
 
I don’t want to turn this into a turn out debate, but even local liveries argue what’s correct for an everyday happy hacker, some are real advocates of 24/7 turn out and call the people who stable at night and during the day in bad weather lazy and incorrect and accuse them of molly coddling their horses, where as people who stable at night and during rainy days think people who turn out 24/7 are lazy and mean, and just cant be assed to do their horses twice a day. Neither are correct, all horses/owners are different, because my TB is an ex racer his stable is his safe zone and the place he would rather be, he is still turned out during the day, but given the choice he would rather be in as that is what he knows and was used to for so many years. Turned out 24/7 would turn him into a blind panic.
 
charlie76 said:
laura B does not turn Alf out either, she did but he kept hurting himself so no longer does.
There is a massive difference (whether we like it or not) between a 'pet' horse and a horse that is kept for top competition horses/racehorse. Like it or not, they are a business commodoity!
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Even Kauto and Denman get holidays out at grass. ETA - You beat me!

I agree that there is a big difference between pet and working horses - one tends to get the bullet when it is of no use - that doesn't mean its welfare should be sub-standard whilst it is kept to be a commodity.

Grazing is nice, but it is more the freedom to run, explode and mix with other horses that IMO is as important to horse welfare as food and water.
 
Its the turn out at grass 'when on holiday' that is important to note though. There is no way on earth that they would be turned out whilst racing.
And it also important to note that (unless I am wrong and I am happy to be corrected) that the 2 racehorses are geldings, not stallions.
 
charlie76 said:
Its the turn out at grass 'when on holiday' that is important to note though. There is no way on earth that they would be turned out whilst racing.
And it also important to note that (unless I am wrong and I am happy to be corrected) that the 2 racehorses are geldings, not stallions.
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Don't Push It lives out. All the time apparently (so I'm told).
 
charlie76 said:
Its the turn out at grass 'when on holiday' that is important to note though. There is no way on earth that they would be turned out whilst racing.
And it also important to note that (unless I am wrong and I am happy to be corrected) that the 2 racehorses are geldings, not stallions.
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I think they get a leg stretch in the field all year round actually.
 
Nocturnal said:
Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
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Going by that theory, strapping horses into devices so they only use required muscles sounds a much more effective way to go. :eek:
So horse athletes are different to human athletes then? I have never seen a human athlete locked in his/her room in case he develops the wrong muscles or doesn't cool the right ones down though... :confused: Oh yes, you can't talk to horses can you and tell em to behave themselves... :rolleyes:
I thought that was the point of the careful exercizing over years to develop the correct muscles. Never cease to learn do you. :D

Oh well, it seems I will just never get the hang of this looking after horses correctly the human way when money is involved. :(
 
Flame_ said:
Grazing is nice, but it is more the freedom to run, explode and mix with other horses that IMO is as important to horse welfare as food and water.
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To me too. :) The freedom to walk where you want whenever you want at least some of the time rather than having your every move controlled.
 
AshTay said:
Someone (can't possibly say who) suggested that nothing could be done by people like me and my fellow plebs.
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Haha go back to your clique. No one ever called you a pleb. And I said that people who don't like Totos (and similars) lifestyle, should campaign about it, instead of spouting ridiculous theories on here.
 
stroppy said:
you say its cruel to not turn out , I say its to bloody risky to put any horse out full stop
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I'm going to assume you're joking as you surely can't be serious.

I understand that competition horses are worth a hella lot of money, but I think it's a shame that any horse would be kept in from breaking onwards and conditioned to it, no matter what they are worth or bred for. I cannot believe that horses in general are happier in, or would be happier in if they had the chance to be turned out (as in, if they'd always been turned out.

Agree with Spudlet - Carl Hester? What does he know, aye? ;) Having said that, he seems to have his out from when they're youngsters, so they get used to it and don't go bonkers when turned out. Sensible man, that.
 
amandap said:
Going by that theory, strapping horses into devices so they only use required muscles sounds a much more effective way to go. :eek:
So horse athletes are different to human athletes then? I have never seen a human athlete locked in his/her room in case he develops the wrong muscles or doesn't cool the right ones down though... :confused: Oh yes, you can't talk to horses can you and tell em to behave themselves... :rolleyes:
I thought that was the point of the careful exercizing over years to develop the correct muscles. Never cease to learn do you. :D

Oh well, it seems I will just never get the hang of this looking after horses correctly the human way when money is involved. :(
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No, I believe riding them correctly is the best way to go. And providing optimum nutrition and a careful excercise routine.

And human athletes are not the property of anybody else. Locking one in a room would be called 'enslavement'.

The point I am trying to make, is that you don't get Totilases by turning them out in a field. Sad, but true.
 
Most likely all happy hackers, yes.

Other than Mr Hester.
And the owners and trainers of Denman and Kauto.
And the Olympic-level GP rider that someone on here used to work for.
And William Fox-Pitt, who I think you will find turned Tamarillo out in a sand school while at the Olympics.
And the owner and trainer of Don't Push It.

Although hopefully, they are happy people and I would hope that they also get some pleasure from hacking as well, so perhaps technically, they can be described as happy hackers?
 
muffinino said:
I'm going to assume you're joking as you surely can't be serious.
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I know plenty of riders on the Continent who genuinely believe it is far too dangerous to put horses out at all. Hence the total lack of paddocks in very many yards including some top ones.

As I said Carl Hester is an exception rather than the rule, I know at least two Olympic riders who believe turnout is just too dangerous and I am sure the majority of competition fit, top dressage horses are not turned out.

I personally like my horses out as regularly as possible and when I choose a yard the availability of turnout is very high up in my list of priorities, but then again I have never spent a six-figure sum on a horse.
 
nikkimariet said:
Haha go back to your clique. No one ever called you a pleb. And I said that people who don't like Totos (and similars) lifestyle, should campaign about it, instead of spouting ridiculous theories on here.
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Clique? Eh?

And did I not then go on to suggest a way of "campaigning"? Or does it have to be placards?

No pleasing some people.
 
And Carl picks and chooses which are actually turned out and which are hand grazed. He would assess that depending on each horses temprement and I imagine, the owners wishes.
You also have to remember that in a big competition/racing yard the logistics of turning out, catching and grooming 'x' amount of horses before riding/training everyday, would be a nightmare.
 
* Pondering out loud *

I wonder if they are not turned out due to insurance, or lack off.
As I understand it, these horses aren't insured for accidents (or is it vets fees?) due to their 'job', they are at far greater risk of injury than a 'normal' horse.

You see, I can see that as being a fairly valid reason, even if I don't agree with it.

Regardless of how much he's worth, they still cost the same amount to fix ... as all those of us who have had vets to our horses can testify.
 
charlie76 said:
You also have to remember that in a big competition/racing yard the logistics of turning out, catching and grooming 'x' amount of horses before riding/training everyday, would be a nightmare.
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Agreed. Putting 4 out in the morning and bringing 4 in in the evening takes enough time!
 
nikkimariet said:
I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training.
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Or they could be people who have worked their whole lives with horses and have studied their behaviour in many different enviroments and believe that as soon as you take a horse as a "commodity" you lose any sense of what horses are about and treat them in the most financially sound way possible and then maybe get a huge insurance payoff when the horse is "*********" as a 10 year old and can no longer do its job becuase of the way the owner has looked after it.

They may also be people who have studied equine anatomy and physiology and has a basic knowledge of the principles of flatwork training and why working all muscles CORRECTLY is the only way to keep them sound. Not using important muscle groups when a horse is turned out my arse, its the best way for a horse to loosen up any tight muscles and really stretch his back in a way that they dont when ridden. ETA especially the dressage horses.
 
Nocturnal said:
No, I believe riding them correctly is the best way to go. And providing optimum nutrition and a careful excercise routine.

And human athletes are not the property of anybody else. Locking one in a room would be called 'enslavement'.
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That's what I call it. :D
Nocturnal said:
The point I am trying to make, is that you don't get Totilases by turning them out in a field. Sad, but true.
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Mmmmm, I'm afraid I don't want to even see a beautiful Totilas if it means he has to be a 'slave' to any other living being, even a human one. What is different about horses that locking them in a room most of the time and control what they do the rest of the time is ok but if we do that to humans we're enslaving them? :confused:

Don't forget you used the word slave and just for the record, I never said anything about horses and mental illness on this thread.
 
Allover said:
Or they could be people who have worked their whole lives with horses and have studied their behaviour in many different enviroments and believe that as soon as you take a horse as a "commodity" you lose any sense of what horses are about and treat them in the most financially sound way possible and then maybe get a huge insurance payoff when the horse is "*********" as a 10 year old and can no longer do its job becuase of the way the owner has looked after it.

They may also be people who have studied equine anatomy and physiology and has a basic knowledge of the principles of flatwork training and why working all muscles CORRECTLY is the only way to keep them sound. Not using important muscle groups when a horse is turned out my arse, its the best way for a horse to loosen up any tight muscles and really stretch his back in a way that they dont when ridden. ETA especially the dressage horses.
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I *think* you'll find that I said 'most'....not all....and certainly not specifically you. Here's some advice, get off your high horse, and remove your twisted knickers from your uptight behind.
 
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