charlie76
Well-Known Member
Its not banned, its not allowed to be used in excess, its down to the official to decide what the excess level is AFAIK
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
Total ignoramus here but I do know when a horse is comfortable or not so perhaps the horse uses the tests as his time for relaxing his muscles from the cramped up rolkur rather as we would use walk as time out so you see a 'freer' and nicer picture?
galaxy
Well-Known Member
that sounds a bit wooly!
I was going on my knowledge from statements like this
"Last week, on February 9, 2010, the FEI (International Equestrian Federation) met to discuss the practice of rollkur and unanimously agreed that any form of aggressive riding must lead to punishment under FEI rules. The group defined rollkur or hyperflexion as "flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force". FEI rules already in place forbid the use of aggressive force in training and therefore the rules as they stand already forbid rollkur or other methods in which "head and neck position is achieved through aggressive force".
The FEI meeting included veterinarians, welfare experts and officials from eventing, dressage and show jumping disciplines. The group also considered signatures from 41,000 concerned horse lovers, delivered by veterinarian Dr. Gerd Heuschman, who petitioned the FEI to rule on rollkur.
FEI committee chairman Frank Kempermann is forming a group to expand guidelines and better train show stewards how to spot rollkur, and further they may place CCTV monitors in warm up areas at some shows to ensure rollkur is not permitted.
Rollkur or hyperflexion is still very common in the Western riding world where draw reins are used to force the horse's head to its chest. Hopefully other disciplines will follow the FEI in banning this abusive training technique."
which makes it sound like it is flat out banned....
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I HATE HATE HATE these type of posts where its pure conjecture and no one knows the full story.
I always ask myself why was the video never handed in for the blue tongue issue with Patrick Kitel and Scandic? Surely if its a welfare issue then that video should have been handed into the FEI? Why was it not as surely footage does not lie unlike photos?
I see hundreds of shocking photos on this very forum - bad hands, poorly trained horses, poor horses etc I do not know the background so would never dream of commenting on them so I feel the same for this.
Photos lie. They are one of the most easily manipulated things as they only tell you a snapshot in time.
Frankly I am far more disgusted that 2 horses DIED in the GN while riderless than what is going on here. I think it all needs a sense of perspective rather than hysterical posting.
BTW I am not an advocate for Rolkur and I loathe extreme training methods but until I see the video I will not be getting hysterical about it.
I always ask myself why was the video never handed in for the blue tongue issue with Patrick Kitel and Scandic? Surely if its a welfare issue then that video should have been handed into the FEI? Why was it not as surely footage does not lie unlike photos?
I see hundreds of shocking photos on this very forum - bad hands, poorly trained horses, poor horses etc I do not know the background so would never dream of commenting on them so I feel the same for this.
Photos lie. They are one of the most easily manipulated things as they only tell you a snapshot in time.
Frankly I am far more disgusted that 2 horses DIED in the GN while riderless than what is going on here. I think it all needs a sense of perspective rather than hysterical posting.
BTW I am not an advocate for Rolkur and I loathe extreme training methods but until I see the video I will not be getting hysterical about it.
PRE3
Active Member
Don't sit on the fence act now.
diggerbez
Well-Known Member
^^ well said LEC
i can't see the pictures, can't be bothered watching the video and know very little about dressage...but i am constantly amazed by the drivel spouted on threads like these...anytime i click onto HHO i see pics and videos of some dreadful riding that people have posted...but i wouldn't dream of offering criticism...i am not claiming to be perfect by any means by the way...but i wouldn't claim to know how to ride one side of a horse like Toto, nor would i suggest that i had a better idea of training a horse to this level...and yet half of HHO could clearly do it...
viola
Well-Known Member
^^ well said LEC
i can't see the pictures, can't be bothered watching the video and know very little about dressage...but i am constantly amazed by the drivel spouted on threads like these...anytime i click onto HHO i see pics and videos of some dreadful riding that people have posted...but i wouldn't dream of offering criticism...i am not claiming to be perfect by any means by the way...but i wouldn't claim to know how to ride one side of a horse like Toto, nor would i suggest that i had a better idea of training a horse to this level...and yet half of HHO could clearly do it...
I personally think there is huge difference between novice (as most of us on here are in the grand scheme of things) riders posting photos and videos of their riding and looking "dreadful" (as you put it) and the pictures/videos of top horse and rider. Yes, often times the footage of lower level riders is bad but I don't aspire to emulate them.
When I watch someone at the top of the sport I admire, support and feel invested in I expect to feel inspired, respectful and left yearning for similar level of skill.
If after looking through pages of photographs from a top event I am left feeling disgusted, ashamed to support the sport and deeply saddened for the horse, then perhaps, as someone who is involved in this sport for a living, I have the right to voice those feelings.
diggerbez
Well-Known Member
if you don't like how matt ratt rides and trains then don't aspire to be like him then?? instead focus on someone like charlotte and that lovely test she produced and aspire to be like that... at the end of the day its a very competitive sport worth mega bucks and so some people will train in ways that might be distasteful...it doesn't make it right, i accept...but if it gets results then they will probably continue to do it...it happens in all equestrian sports- showjumping/eventing etc...i think that with dressage it is often very obvious that something unpleasant is going on as the pictures of a horse are quite obvious...the same wouldn't happen in something like showjumping where the horse's legs are on fire from a substance being put on them to make them more careful...or something being put down a boot for the same reason...it wouldn't be so obvious to spectators...again, its not right...but i think that its quite rich for people to come on here spouting when they don't know the full story...
Foxford
Well-Known Member
I agree with Viola - I know I'm no world beater but I like to think I train my horse in a kind and considerate way. If people want to win at all costs that's their business, but I don't have to like it. Speaking of rolkured horses winning, this is something I feel needs to be addressed in the sport - like others have said it will start seeping through into the lower ranks.
Foxford
Well-Known Member
Also, I know I don't know the full story but I feel as if what I have seen in the above links provides me with enough material to come to my own conclusion. Maybe one day someone will fill in the blanks, but until then I think this is wrong and I will continue to say so.
viola
Well-Known Member
This is my view too. I've followed top dressage, show jumping and eventing for the last 20 years and watch enough of it to build my opinion as to what inspires me and makes me want to be better and what does the opposite.
If I think someone simply doesn't inspire me I don't bother voicing my opinions. However, I think every single horse person should say something if when they watch a top performer warming up they feel uneasy and saddened...
rhino
Well-Known Member
Hollycatt
Well-Known Member
I liked the performance a lot. It is much better than it has been and I think a lot of credit should go to MR. I am not actually a Toto fan, but I liked this more relaxed performance better than some of the other ones under EG.
Baggybreeches
Well-Known Member
That is what I keep saying but nobody seems to understand what I am getting at!
diggerbez
Well-Known Member
So only someone who has competed at GP level has any right to an opinion?
not at all...i don't think i am explaining myself very well... what i mean is that none us (i don't think anyway
) have ridden Toto or a horse like him...perhaps he does actually perform better when warmed up like this? MR seems to have tried in the past to have ridden him in a different way to this and got completely slated for it... and now he is riding him like EG used to and is getting fabtastic scores...and he is still getting slated?! i can't help but think that if there was a better way of riding him and warming him up then the professionals and people who deal with the horse every day would a) know about it and b) use it? yes i personally much much prefer to watch someone like charlotte and valegro...which is my opinion...and personally i would rather see someone riding sympathetically...but i am also realistic enough to realise that with some horses this isn't always possible... i just find comments like the one earlier in the thread where someone (sorry can't remember who) suggested that they wanted to give MR a riding lesson...i mean, really?! perhaps said someone is also an international DR rider and, if they are i do apologise...but i do doubt it.... there is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion that you think something is wrong/you don't like something etc...but i do think that people get a bit carried away sometimes that is all... Lolo
Well-Known Member
So only someone who has competed at GP level has any right to an opinion?
No, only someone who was there and witnessed it has the right to speculate over a photo.
Photos are a moment in time. This can work in 2 ways. I have photos where Reg looks stunning from the early days- he looks like he's working in a far more advanced outline than he does at the moment, softly over his back and it's lovely. The video footage shows this is him about to do a 180 degree spin and try and exit the arena in the opposite direction, and the entire test was conducted with head tossing and 'working bounce'.
Professional [photographer's cameras can take 5 shots per second I think? So 3 seconds of this horse tossing it's head (or trying to spook at the millions of photographers hanging round...) means 15 photos. But there are so many photographers and an enormous school- say there were 4 photographers though who caught these 3 seconds of spook. That's 60 photos... Doesn;t take much to turn 3 seconds of 'trying to stop the horse from bogging off' into 'he does rollkur!'.
Until I see video footage, I am not going to judge this one
Charem
Well-Known Member
The FEI need to tighten the rules on Rolkur, as it stands they are so very grey.
It says that hyper extension through excessive force is forbidden, but I imagine these horses are so sensitive in their mouths and have probably had it drilled in to them at home that it doesn't take an awful lot to get them to drop their nose's to their chests. Just because MK isn't sawing away at Totilas's mouth to accheive that, doesn't mean that its not rolkur. And judging by his hands and the curb's angle, he's not being particualry gentle with it either.
And to add, no I'm not an international dressage rider and I doubt I could walk a 20m circle on that horse but I do not agree with hyper extension/rolkur and have every right as the next amature to say so.
It says that hyper extension through excessive force is forbidden, but I imagine these horses are so sensitive in their mouths and have probably had it drilled in to them at home that it doesn't take an awful lot to get them to drop their nose's to their chests. Just because MK isn't sawing away at Totilas's mouth to accheive that, doesn't mean that its not rolkur. And judging by his hands and the curb's angle, he's not being particualry gentle with it either.
And to add, no I'm not an international dressage rider and I doubt I could walk a 20m circle on that horse but I do not agree with hyper extension/rolkur and have every right as the next amature to say so.
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
To be honest I think what MAR said at the press conference is spot on. He just can't do anything right with this horse.
To be frank in this sport there seem to be people who can do no right, and others who can do no wrong. Either you're idolised or crucified, whatever you do....!!!
To be frank in this sport there seem to be people who can do no right, and others who can do no wrong. Either you're idolised or crucified, whatever you do....!!!
Foxford
Well-Known Member
I do! I think you are right. I also think this is a bit of a chicken-egg scenario. Is he rolkured in training/warm-ups so he feels freer and performs better in the test or does he need the rolkur to perform at all i.e. has he been so brainwashed by his training he doesn't understand any other way.
Either of these options is pretty sad whichever way you look at it.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
Lolo pro cameras can do 10 frames per second, so in 3 seconds with 3 cameras you'd get 90 shots, all from different angles, all showing the horse in different places in the arena (presuming it is moving!).
CalllyH
Well-Known Member
Any pictures of this horse since he left gal upset me. No rhyme and reason he just seems to have lost so much spark, even his coat doesn't look the same. He just seems dull in the eyes.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Everyone has the 'right' to speculate over a photo if they so wish. Doesn't mean they'll necessarily be right though.
And it wasn't just 'a' photo, was it?
Lolo
Well-Known Member
I explained my views entirely.
Rollkur is a disgusting means to an end, but I do not think you can call that without either witnessing it or a video... 10 photos in a second. 3 seconds of this, 30 photos. 4 photographers in different places, 120 photos of 3 seconds, and by shuffling stuff round it could appear like it went on for ages.
I want a video. Everyone has video on their phones nowadays- even my phone, which cost a tenner 2 years ago in Argos can video stuff! Why hasn't any actual footage surfaced?!
Rollkur is a disgusting means to an end, but I do not think you can call that without either witnessing it or a video... 10 photos in a second. 3 seconds of this, 30 photos. 4 photographers in different places, 120 photos of 3 seconds, and by shuffling stuff round it could appear like it went on for ages.
I want a video. Everyone has video on their phones nowadays- even my phone, which cost a tenner 2 years ago in Argos can video stuff! Why hasn't any actual footage surfaced?!
Auslander
Well-Known Member
I didn't see the photos - they had disappeared before I got to them. I have just watched the video of his test, and I liked what I saw. Yes, there were moments of inconsistency in the extension, where he flicks a toe out to balance himself - but this is a relatively young horse, with a lot of power and movement to manage, so I think he can be forgiven for the odd waver.
He looked relaxed and happy during the test (bearing in mind that no horse can be totally relaxed whilst performing advanced movements. There needs to be a degree of tension) far more so than the last video I saw of him.
In the warm up, I sure there were moments where his chin was in his chest - it's a very easy thing to do with a horse that is schooled to this level. They get a bit exuberant and run through the bridle, and one strong half halt can very easily result in hyperflexion, even if you don't mean to. Its not impossible that it was a fleeting moment that the rider didn't even notice, but with the lenses of the horse worlds equivalent of the paparazzi poised to capture the slightest negative thing - it was picked up and consequently, thrown to the pack to pick over.
I am no more qualified than anyone else to comment. I've never ridden at GP level, and never will. I have ridden GP horses in Germany though (very very badly I might add!!) and I've felt how easy it is to overcook a movement on them. These horses are a million times more reactive than your average horse - so its really really easy to get it wrong and end up with it all going tits up before you even realise what you've done. It could be an over zealous blocking aid that resulted in hyperflexion, or the horse going bolt upright when the plan was to have a a crack at piaffe. Been there, done it, looked a prat...
I didnt see the pics, so I could be totally wrong about this particular situation, but I thought the video showed a nice partnership developing - and I'm glad that the horse is looking happier.
He looked relaxed and happy during the test (bearing in mind that no horse can be totally relaxed whilst performing advanced movements. There needs to be a degree of tension) far more so than the last video I saw of him.
In the warm up, I sure there were moments where his chin was in his chest - it's a very easy thing to do with a horse that is schooled to this level. They get a bit exuberant and run through the bridle, and one strong half halt can very easily result in hyperflexion, even if you don't mean to. Its not impossible that it was a fleeting moment that the rider didn't even notice, but with the lenses of the horse worlds equivalent of the paparazzi poised to capture the slightest negative thing - it was picked up and consequently, thrown to the pack to pick over.
I am no more qualified than anyone else to comment. I've never ridden at GP level, and never will. I have ridden GP horses in Germany though (very very badly I might add!!) and I've felt how easy it is to overcook a movement on them. These horses are a million times more reactive than your average horse - so its really really easy to get it wrong and end up with it all going tits up before you even realise what you've done. It could be an over zealous blocking aid that resulted in hyperflexion, or the horse going bolt upright when the plan was to have a a crack at piaffe. Been there, done it, looked a prat...
I didnt see the pics, so I could be totally wrong about this particular situation, but I thought the video showed a nice partnership developing - and I'm glad that the horse is looking happier.
Peer
Well-Known Member
What a wise words. But Frodo this all comes from people who just follow the leader(s), without ever attending competitions or knowing any detail about the way of training/warming up which every individual rider uses. They create their opinion solely based on what they read on the WWW.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Massive (incorrect) assumption.
Peer
Well-Known Member
OK Just tell me
How many top sport competitions have you attended the last twenty years, how many times did you sit on the fence and watched these riders train at home ?.
diggerbez
Well-Known Member
rhino
Well-Known Member
OK Just tell me
How many top sport competitions have you attended the last twenty years, how many times did you sit on the fence and watched these riders train at home ?.
Not as many or as often as I'd like
Seriously, I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. The simple fact is you made sweeping generalisations about anyone who doesn't happen to share your viewpoint.
Peer
Well-Known Member
Not as many or as often as I'd like
Seriously, I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. The simple fact is you made sweeping generalisations about anyone who doesn't happen to share your viewpoint.
I never make general remarks and everybody has the right to disagree with me.
I just happen to know most of these riders, horses and their way of training.
Back to your regular scheduled program