Totilas

[tristar]

re canter to the rear: i was'nt going to mention this for fear of sounding like i'm boasting about my young horse! but, several times last year when he was three years old i saw him canter backwards while playing in the field, its a very odd movement, he appeared to be playing with his own capabilites, and its not suprising he can do this as he is very strong and deep through the loins.

i suppose the definition of natural to me, is if a horse performs a movement at liberty then it is natural to the horse.

 

[TarrSteps]

re canter to the rear: i was'nt going to mention this for fear of sounding like i'm boasting about my young horse! but, several times last year when he was three years old i saw him canter backwards while playing in the field, its a very odd movement, he appeared to be playing with his own capabilites, and its not suprising he can do this as he is very strong and deep through the loins.

i suppose the definition of natural to me, is if a horse performs a movement at liberty then it is natural to the horse.

I saw a super athletic Indoctro colt canter backwards in a group class once but I don't think the rider was enjoying it!

To again be devil's advocate, I've seen stallions especially, posture with their chins virtually on their chests and their front legs flying while their back ends went nowhere!

I guess the argument is, is anything any individual horse *can* do what all/most horses SHOULD do? Obviously they answer is no, just as it would not be fair to ask any horse to jump 1.50 just because there are lots of horses that can do it for fun.

 

[CalllyH]

I don't think it matters so much about the rolkur but looking at these videos Firstly and foremost this horse is not level at all! I don't see the sake of carrying on with him in competition. He's had his glory now use him to breed solely before it goes even more tits up

 

[tristar]

i certainly would not say all horses should do all movements, but certain horses who can offer, and are bred to, and show the inclination to play with the rarer qualites and find it easy, should be followed up, so their individual talents become their highlights.

 

[Fellewell]

I follow no scheduled program - again massive incorrect assumption. Why do you feel the need to talk down to anyone who has a different opinion? You might not like it being discussed, but that's public forums for you.

Oh, come on now Rhino; you do have a scheduled programme. It involves hanging around here all day, talking down to people.

 

[TarrSteps]

Which is pretty much the point of dressage at the top end, to enhance the exceptional.

 

[rhino]

Oh, come on now Rhino; you do have a scheduled programme. It involves hanging around here all day, talking down to people.

Oh aren't you a funny one Or not...

 

[Above&Beyond]

Indeed TarrSteps, this whole discussion came about because the Rath's changed their tune, and even though 2 yrs ago they wrote a letter supporting the ban of Rollkur, they now admit to matching their training methods to what Totilas is 'used to'!

re canter to the rear: i was'nt going to mention this for fear of sounding like i'm boasting about my young horse! but, several times last year when he was three years old i saw him canter backwards while playing in the field, its a very odd movement, he appeared to be playing with his own capabilites, and its not suprising he can do this as he is very strong and deep through the loins.

i suppose the definition of natural to me, is if a horse performs a movement at liberty then it is natural to the horse.

This is a fair point, what is natural or not is a discussion on its own, and you are right that horses will canter backwards without asking them to.
I used to ride a horse which wasnt that athletic, it cantered backwards when napping, so they CAN do it. But maybe the question is should do vs can do?

I guess the argument is, is anything any individual horse *can* do what all/most horses SHOULD do? Obviously they answer is no, just as it would not be fair to ask any horse to jump 1.50 just because there are lots of horses that can do it for fun.

This would be an endless debate though, I like to believe dressage is smth we do with horses to help them carry the rider correctly and thus stay sound. Which is why horses that are manage correctly can perform at the highest level into their late 20's. But, at the same time to believe thats the purpose of the sport would be a bit naive.

 

[kerilli]

has everyone already seen this: Toti as a 5yr old, pre-Gal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbpiL2arT4A&feature=share
had exceptional cadence and lift even then, no?

my trainer told me ages ago, during a discussion on it, that Nicole Uphoff was the first to use "rollkur" (well, that's what he called it, and since he's German, I guess he knows exactly what it means and the difference - if there is one - between it and LDR...) on Rembrandt, to control his excessive spooking.

If it's true that one is allowed to use LDR/rollkur for a max of 10 mins in warm-up, and that's what the stewards were monitoring carefully in this session, I can't quite get my head around that... surely if it's fine there should be no time limit, and if it's not, then, erm, ditto... 10 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins is too much... *puzzled face*

As for the horse going better this way, I don't really know what to think. Learned helplessness? Or, we all know that horses love the familiar...

So, I'm convoluted about this. I don't like the look of rollkur in a double bridle BUT if the horse then produced much better work - compared to his performance at the stallion show where they were obviously both on different planets... hmmm.
(fwiw to me a horse dipping deep in a snaffle has a totally different look, no curb etc. The curb doesn't look loose in the pics imho.)

 

[SpottedCat]

K - the argument of it either being fine or not just doesn't stand up for me - we all know galloping a horse is fine.....but galloping it solidly for say 24 hours - is that fine? Jumping a horse over 1.50 sjs is fine....so why aren't XC fences that big? Doing medium trot is fine - would it still be fine if someone did it for 3 hours constantly? Why is it fine to lunge for 20 mins but not 6 hours? Surely if you think it's ok to lunge a horse then if it's fine for 20 mins it's fine for however long?

There are plenty of things which if done to excess would be abusive but if done for controlled periods actually enhance the way the horse moves. Making the controlled period relatively short doesn't make the thing inherently bad. It might make it under-studied/arbitrary or politically motivated - and it may well be that it is inherently a bad thing. But you can't say just coz there is a short time limit on it that means it must be bad.

 

[Above&Beyond]

has everyone already seen this: Toti as a 5yr old, pre-Gal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbpiL2arT4A&feature=share
had exceptional cadence and lift even then, no?

my trainer told me ages ago, during a discussion on it, that Nicole Uphoff was the first to use "rollkur" (well, that's what he called it, and since he's German, I guess he knows exactly what it means and the difference - if there is one - between it and LDR...) on Rembrandt, to control his excessive spooking.

If it's true that one is allowed to use LDR/rollkur for a max of 10 mins in warm-up, and that's what the stewards were monitoring carefully in this session, I can't quite get my head around that... surely if it's fine there should be no time limit, and if it's not, then, erm, ditto... 10 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins is too much... *puzzled face*

Thanks for the video, hadn't seen it.
I don't think being german qualifies someone to know more than anyone else, otherwise I must be right .
Rollkur is nothing new, its been around for a long time and no one will ever know who the first person was to use it.

I am not saying I agree with the 10min rule, but I see the point of it in that a horse will be in that position at some point even without aiming to ride it in that way, which explains to me why there can't be 0 tolerance.
Also agree with Spottedcat on that everything is bad in excess!

 

[kirstykate]

K - the argument of it either being fine or not just doesn't stand up for me - we all know galloping a horse is fine.....but galloping it solidly for say 24 hours - is that fine? Jumping a horse over 1.50 sjs is fine....so why aren't XC fences that big? Doing medium trot is fine - would it still be fine if someone did it for 3 hours constantly? Why is it fine to lunge for 20 mins but not 6 hours? Surely if you think it's ok to lunge a horse then if it's fine for 20 mins it's fine for however long?

There are plenty of things which if done to excess would be abusive but if done for controlled periods actually enhance the way the horse moves. Making the controlled period relatively short doesn't make the thing inherently bad. It might make it under-studied/arbitrary or politically motivated - and it may well be that it is inherently a bad thing. But you can't say just coz there is a short time limit on it that means it must be bad.

Exactly and I would like to know just how many of you on here know why these methods are used??

 

[kerilli]

Thanks for the video, hadn't seen it.
I don't think being german qualifies someone to know more than anyone else, otherwise I must be right .
Rollkur is nothing new, its been around for a long time and no one will ever know who the first person was to use it.

Erm, I didn't say it meant he knows more than anyone else... but since he is a trainer (a Bereiter I think, I'm not sure) and witnessed it, and knows the nuances of the meaning in German better than i do, i trust his word that it was rollkur and not LDR. that's what i meant.

i have no idea if it was used before that - he said not. he trained with Neindorff and has been to a lot of top yards, studied the dressage Masters of the past etc etc and when he said that NU was the first to use it, I believed him.
could be wrong though, obv.

SC, with respect, I disagree. 1.50 xc fences - that is completely irrelevant, surely? that would be a pure safety issue, although i'm sure some horses would cope okay. Opp Buzz, anyone?
ditto galloping a horse for 24 hours - erm, what on earth has that got to do with a questionable technique being used for a deliberately limited period in a dressage warm up? we aren't talking about working a horse to death here.
lungeing a horse for 6 hours... again, i fail to see the relevance. we are not talking about working a horse to exhaustion, either. we are talking about putting a short time limit on a questionable practice. There is no set time limit put on any other aspect of warm up as far as I know... you can go in and do nothing but long rein walk, or collected walk, or trot half pass, or medium trot, or even extended canter, or whatever else you fancy, for the whole time if you really want to... no horse abuse suspected!
I don't know if they put a maximum time on warm-up for Dr but I know of certain riders in Eventing and SJ who have done very very very long warm-ups on certain horses to get the best out of them... and nobody thought that was abuse afaik. So, as long as it's not to the point of exhaustion or death, the length of the warm-up overall is immaterial imho, we are talking about HOW the horse is worked...

kirstykate, yes, i believe i do know why these methods are used.

 

[SpottedCat]

You were saying if it is fine then a time limit doesn't need to be put on it, I was saying that putting a time limit on something doesn't mean that the logical conclusion is that the practice of that thing is bad. What if someone did decide that riding in, using only medium canter, for 4 hours, was the way to get the best out of one particular horse, and the powers that be felt that because of the public outcry due to seeing said sweaty horse ridden for 4 hours they were going to put on a time limit of say 20 mins for medium canter? Would that make medium canter bad?

I'm not coming down for or against rollkur, but the point I was making was that putting a time limit on something can be done for all kinds of reason, some politically motivated, some because they have to be seen to be doing something, that doesn't mean that the thing which is limited is in itself a bad thing to do. It might just mean they haven't a clue but 10 mins is an arbitrarily short period of time that shows they are doing something, even if there is no evidence base for it at all.

 

[SpottedCat]

The fence height thing was the point that there is a limit on the height of XC fences - that limit is an arbitrary safety limit which has been agreed at some point in the past. What's it based on? If a horse can jump 1.50 SJs then, as you said, some of them might well be able to jump 1.50 XC fences. My point was that the limit is arbitrary, has no basis in what horses can do routinely in another sport, and is just a limit. The limit itself does not make the act bad!!

 

[kirstykate]

Its like everything there is a time and place, you just need to watch the top showjumpers warming up

 

[kerilli]

but the point is, there is NO time limit put upon any other practice in dressage warm-up... Surely that means something?!
I still don't see the relevance of the 1.50xc fence idea. horses do lots of things in other sports that we don't expect them to transfer to a different sport. you have, genuinely, lost me with this parallel...

kirstykate... yes, i have watched top showjumpers warming up. and your point is...?
i'd like to hear your thoughts on why you think these methods are used, too.

 

[SpottedCat]

The point is that a limit can be arbitrarily applied and the fact there is a limit does not make something abusive. Just because there is no limit placed on any other part of the warmup doesn't mean the thing which has the limit is abusive. It might be....or it might just be that someone felt they needed to be seen to be doing something, so watched some warmups, realised that people don't generally do it for prolonged periods so decided that if they put a 10 min limit on it would have precisely no effect on the riders, but the outside world would see they were doing something and the backlash would stop.

I don't know how else to explain the idea that a limit does not mean the logical conclusion is that the act is abusive and was using the fact that we have arbitrary different limits in different sports to demonstrate that fact!

The fact that there is no limit on any other part of the warmup doesn't mean the things being done wouldn't be abusive if done to excess - but because no one has decided to do them to excess, and perhaps more pertinently none of the general public have kicked up a fuss about any other part of the warmup, there is no requirement for a limit. You can bet your bottom dollar that if, say, this kind of fuss was kicked up about shoulder in, there would be a time limit for working in shoulder in faster than you can say 'rollkur'

 

[kerilli]

okay, i get that, but it just looks like specious reasoning to me, since the ONLY thing they have put a time limit on is, as i said before, is this questionable practice (that has been investigated in depth already.)
as for 'people don't generally do it for prolonged periods' that isn't quite my understanding... (pre- time limit, or at home, i mean).

 

[SpottedCat]

But they did make the whole rule so grey and wooly as to be virtually impossible to apply. Perhaps there is a reason for that.....

 

[oldvic]

Nicole Uphoff called her methods LDR but the uproar was because the horse was being ridden "overbent". It was probably the German version of rollkur! It really boils down to how extreme the rider makes it. I agree with Spotted Cat that it is not black and white - you can ask a horse something for a short time to show it the way. For instance, if a horse is reluctant to cross over in leg yielding, if you ask for more extreme crossing and a greater angle for a short time then a regular leg yield becomes easy. The danger is when someone does this without understanding the reasons and how it effects the body so causing damage. These supreme athletes are so supple that their bodies can go where mere mortals can't (if I tried to do what gymnasts do I would break in no time!). I am not an advocate of rollkur at all but it is hard to argue that it doesn't work with exceptional athletes. My worry is when people pick up on it and try and force normal horses into a position that is beyond them.
Certainly in eventing there is a time limit for warm up and I think there is for dressage - 1hr in one session.

 

[Peer]

The now called LDR system was basically developed for female riders (Nicolle Uphof and Rembrandt were the first to show this to the public). Female riders lacked the muscle strength that male rider had and have. So this system was developed in Germany to give female riders equal chances in the competition arena. Jean Bemmelmans during the RollKür/Hyperflexian/LDR symposium at Aachen. "You can't expect Anky with her 55 kilos to get the same response from a horse as the response I get with my 90+ kilo" .

Taking this back to the basics. Horses in the LDR system are learning to act on smaller aids.

This system is already very well accepted by many riders in many countries but it is (and probably will stay) a cultural shock for Germany, where the "Ausbildung Skala" is still based on the military training.

 

[ScampiBigMan]

Hi, don't normally post but thought Georges Dewez' letter below may be informative for this thread. He trained with Nuno Oliveira. This is posted for information to the debate and am sure many are already familiar with its contents but some may not be and may find it an interesting input.


'I am writing in response to an article published in Horse and Hound titled “Classical Dressage” Who Cares? The Rollkur Debate

Letter by Georges Dewez published in the CRC Newsletter Spring 2006

The debate regarding the merits of classical versus modern dressage methods was initiated by the German dressage press, approximately 6 months ago, when articles criticising some modern dressage training methods were published. The criticism was particularly directed towards the use of Rollkür; the practice of working horses in extreme overbending or “hyperflexion”. Some of the photographs, which accompanied this article, showed the current Olympic Champion during warm up for competition, creating much comment.

As a result the FEI called a meeting of trainers, riders and vets in Lausanne on February 1st 2006 to discuss the issues arising from the allegations made by the press. The meeting concluded that although potentially damaging in inexperienced hands these methods were acceptable in the hands of experts. There is no doubt that extreme methods are and will probably always be used behind closed doors. It is however shocking for these techniques to be officially condoned by the recognised regulatory body the FEI.

The issue at hand is not what it is classical or not but rather is it ethical to use any means to achieve your goal, in this case a winning Grand Prix test. Many well known modern riders and trainers seem to justify what has now been officially described as hyperflexion of the neck as a necessary tool to produce the modern dressage athletes, whose power and athleticism they so admire. That the modern dressage horse is in many ways superior to the horses competing in the 50s and 60s is in no doubt but this has much more to do with the considerable skill of the continental breeders than any change in training.

They do show extravagant paces but extravagance does not always equate with being correct. The extended trot of some GP horses is often more similar to what in the circus used to be called “Spanish trot”. The reason I mention the circus is not for the sake of provocation but because this is where this “new” and modern method of training comes from.

In the mid 1800s the brilliant circus trainer François Baucher described in great detail a method he used occasionally which he called ramener outré which translates exactly as extreme overbending or hyperflexion of the neck. He explained that its great advantage was that it gave complete control over the neck structure and provoked an extreme submission of the horse. He excused his techniques by explaining that as a circus rider he needed such methods to produce the evermore spectacular movements which kept his public entertained. Baucher suffered a tremendous amount of criticism from the German press and leading German trainers of the time.

So, do we really need to train horses using methods where the horse is so overbent that it cannot physically see beyond its front feet and in some cases not even that far? To most outsiders I would think this would be considered a form of abuse whether or not it is performed by experts. The rules of the FEI require : The harmonious development of the physique and ability of the horse.

The question to debate is not classical versus modern but whether we wish to allow the fashion for extravagant show paces to overide any ethics in training. Is it still relevant to strive to maintain the previous standard of purity of pace and correct execution of all movements?

Does the FEI intend to promote show business by any means or is it still going to try and maintain the art of riding? Harmony is not just for show it must be maintained throughout the whole training. It is interesting to note that François Baucher abandoned the methods he once used and in later life chose to concentrate on lightness and the purity of the paces.

There has indeed been great progress in some aspects of modern training, in particular, a much better understanding of the functioning of the horse’s back and, yes, more power and elasticity ,but the ethical stance which is at the core of classical training must be maintained if we are to keep the art of riding. Georges Dewez, Carreg Dressage, Machynlleth, Powys, Wales SY20 8NW'

 

[Peer]

OMG we have another one who is copying and pasting the dusty articles of the ODG's .

 

[little_flea]

The now called LDR system was basically developed for female riders (Nicolle Uphof and Rembrandt were the first to show this to the public). Female riders lacked the muscle strength that male rider had and have. So this system was developed in Germany to give female riders equal chances in the competition arena. Jean Bemmelmans during the RollKür/Hyperflexian/LDR symposium at Aachen. "You can't expect Anky with her 55 kilos to get the same response from a horse as the response I get with my 90+ kilo" .

Taking this back to the basics. Horses in the LDR system are learning to act on smaller aids.

This system is already very well accepted by many riders in many countries but it is (and probably will stay) a cultural shock for Germany, where the "Ausbildung Skala" is still based on the military training.

In the Taming of Totilas part II video there was mention of Laura B using her hands a lot (and she has been criticised for being too heavy-handed) and the reason for this is because she is simply so small on the horse that she can't lift in "up" with her legs like a taller, stronger (read: male) ride would be able to do. I've never considered this before really, its interesting.

 

[Pale Rider]

Well, I've just read every post on this thread. Interesting.

 

[tristar]

i thought rembrandt was a lightish weight horse around 16.1.HH and she did'nt look overmounted, so why would strength come in it? if fact the very idea that that strength in riding is even mentioned makes me want to faint from utter despair.

i don't see a lot of true collection in top dressage, sometimes with horses like fuego, but then i thought he was trained by jan bemelmans

 

[kerilli]

i thought rembrandt was a lightish weight horse around 16.1.HH and she did'nt look overmounted, so why would strength come in it? if fact the very idea that that strength in riding is even mentioned makes me want to faint from utter despair.

Yes, ditto. he was, a light dancing horse, totally opposite sort to the huge powerhouse types...

In the Taming of Totilas part II video there was mention of Laura B using her hands a lot (and she has been criticised for being too heavy-handed) and the reason for this is because she is simply so small on the horse that she can't lift in "up" with her legs like a taller, stronger (read: male) ride would be able to do. I've never considered this before really, its interesting.

How the chuffing HELL is anyone supposed to be able to "lift" a horse up with their legs? I'm sorry but even if they're Arnie Schwarzenegger at his strongest... !!! Or with their hands, ugh at the very thought.
I'm right with tristar on this.
Strength of legs and hands should never have anything to do with it. how can the horse be in self carriage if the rider is using that much strength (nicer word for 'force'?) You only have to see the tune that some small light riders (and para riders fgs, i've seen Lee Pearson ride and it's really impressive, and his legs can't do anything) can get out of a horse to see the problem with this argument.
I see no signs of Charlotte Dujardin "lifting" the horse with her legs or her hands. She trains the horse to response and lift himself... huge difference imho.

Peer, I can see what you mean if you say 'a small light rider is getting on a horse that is USED to being ridden by a big strong tall rider' and struggles accordlingly, but otherwise, it's just a case of the horse being trained to go on light aids from the start, no? I've heard the same arguments about xc horses, "that's a man's horse"... erm, no, not necessarily...

 

[Booboos]

How the chuffing HELL is anyone supposed to be able to "lift" a horse up with their legs? I'm sorry but even if they're Arnie Schwarzenegger at his strongest... !!!

Neither here nor there in this debate probably, but this can certainly be done! I had a boyfriend who was very powerfully built and he could make his 18hh eventer jump straight up on all four legs from a halt just by squeezing with his legs. Anyone can get the feeling of lifting the back from lower leg pressure so I suppose this was an extension of this. Quite an impressive party trick!

 

[kerilli]

Neither here nor there in this debate probably, but this can certainly be done! I had a boyfriend who was very powerfully built and he could make his 18hh eventer jump straight up on all four legs from a halt just by squeezing with his legs. Anyone can get the feeling of lifting the back from lower leg pressure so I suppose this was an extension of this. Quite an impressive party trick!

Umm, okay, but I don't think that's quite the same as a horse lifting in front, lightening the forehand because it is carrying itself better, etc... iykwim...