Totilas

lannerch

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2008
Messages
3,459
Location
Shropshire
Visit site
Cannot believe this thread is still running !
I saw the photos and I saw the test if that is really rollkur then I see no wrong!
Look at the horse he is looking loads happier, loads more relaxed as a consequence is again beginning to obtain those good scores. ( I still think they over marked him though ).
As long as the horse is happy what is everyones problem?
 

rhino

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2009
Messages
10,067
Location
Border Reiver
Visit site
this all comes from people who just follow the leader(s), without ever attending competitions or knowing any detail about the way of training/warming up which every individual rider uses. They create their opinion solely based on what they read on the WWW.

I never make general remarks

Back to your regular scheduled program :(

I follow no scheduled program - again massive incorrect assumption. Why do you feel the need to talk down to anyone who has a different opinion? You might not like it being discussed, but that's public forums for you.
 

FrodoBeutlin

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 August 2008
Messages
5,338
Location
Northants/London
Visit site
Come on let's all be friends :) Peer is very experienced and very knowledgeable and an invaluable contributor to this forum, I for one greatly appreciate all the videos he posts and the forum would be a poorer place without him ;)

I don't think he was talking down to anybody at all, I don't think it can be denied that sometimes people on the Internet just 'jump on the bandwagon' so to speak (general observation, NOT specific to this forum!) -- I'll say it again, people tend to idolise certain riders and demonise others, I personally think (for what it's worth) that Toto with Edward was something else altogether and for me they will always remain the best, most magical and most harmonious example of dressage that I ever witnessed (and I will be forever grateful that I was allowed to be a part of that, as a spectator), but in Hagen MAR did a good job and Toto looked happier and more relaxed than I've ever seen him with him so credit where credit's due.
 

FrodoBeutlin

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 August 2008
Messages
5,338
Location
Northants/London
Visit site
Oh and just to add that I thought MAR dealt with the whole thing in a very mature manner.

To be entirely honest, I'd MUCH rather hear a rider say "Things were not working, so we had to change our warm-up system and experiment with different ways" than having riders claim to be stalwart supporters of classical training only to ride just as deep "behind the scenes".
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
I'm just confused about the whole thing, quite frankly. It's no secret Gal rides in a school that uses extreme flexion as a schooling exercise. When Rath went another way, he was making the horse unhappy, then they were slated for giving in and going back to Sjef, now he's being attacked even though people agree the horse looks happier in the ring. Can't win for trying.

I think the point about the horses is that many of these individuals are really not 'normal', both naturally and in the way they are produced. Most people never sit on anything close because, quite frankly, if they end up in the general population it either ends in disaster or the horse is diminished, even subconsciously, so the rest of us can ride it! I don't mean to insult anyone but it's like taking someone out of their Clio and dropping them into a F1 car on the start line. Personally, I wouldn't know the first thing to do and I've ridden a few 'average' good horses - good enough to know I'd struggle with a REALLY good one. I know a very good GP rider, currently getting into World Cup finals, been to a couple of Olympics, who briefly owned one of the most famously 'rolkur-ed' horses ever. She sold him to the person who eventually made him a star because, by her own admission, she couldn't cope and didn't want to. :)

You can argue whether or not competitive dressage *should* reward horses like that but it is what it is. Top level dressage has never been about making horses for the average rider!

As to hard training. . .well, two of the most famous examples of modern masters, men who are now held up as examples of classical training, were, if you are to believe people who knew and rode with them, VERY hard on their horses. They were not in it for the giggles and the good times. ;)

It's a mistake to assume all good riders are necessarily always sympathetic horsemen. Even the ones that tend that way are ambitious by definition and don't always make the choices other riders might make.

As far as horses always looking comfortable and happy. . .that IS a tricky one? Can everyone say their own riding always fulfils that criteria? No one has ever made a horse hurt with their riding? Really? I know it doesn't excuse anything but you know what they say about casting stones. Most of us put our interests and ambitions before our horses' best interests quite regularly. We just don't have people taking photos and putting them on the internet. ;)

Debate is good. I guess the question is what are we debating? As FB said, the heroes and villains often seem so arbitrary and but always related to reality. Also, many of the leaders DO have personal and political investment. This doesn't mean they're wrong but it does make it difficult for the rest of us to accurately assess the debate.
 

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
6,586
Visit site
its true, it is wrong to harp on about the bad, but, why do i feel uncomfortable watching this horse?, i am here to try and understand why when i look at the almost best of the best i cannot enjoy what i am seeing.

i see a horse holding itself in a way that is in conflict with the very purpose of dressage, which should be manifested in the sheer physical beauty of the spectacle, i just don't see that when i look at this horse.

i believe the purpose of training is to render the horse rideable and condition it to deliver the demands of any competant rider, that is the proof of correct training, without the use of force, if competition dressage causes so much controversy then there are questions to be answered and debated.
 

Halfstep

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 July 2005
Messages
6,966
Location
Oxfordshire
Visit site
As to hard training. . .well, two of the most famous examples of modern masters, men who are now held up as examples of classical training, were, if you are to believe people who knew and rode with them, VERY hard on their horses. They were not in it for the giggles and the good times. ;)

It's a mistake to assume all good riders are necessarily always sympathetic horsemen. Even the ones that tend that way are ambitious by definition and don't always make the choices other riders might make.

Super super post. :) Spot on about the "modern masters". I could add another name to that - rider in current competition who is always held up as a "classical ideal", who was by far the hardest on a horse in any international warm up that I've ever seen (including Anky and Patrik).

I thought that yes, Totilas looked happier in the ring with MAR the other day, but MAR to me still doesn't look hugely comfortable on Totilas. The seamless transitions that we saw with Edward are not there. I think in the past, MAR was speaking German to a Totilas who only knows Dutch. Now, perhaps, both have learned a smattering of the other's language, but neither are yet fluent. He was hugely overscored at Hagen, but that isn't exactly a surprise considering the venue.
 

Ali16

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 August 2011
Messages
1,097
Location
Hurston Dressage & Eventing, Oxfordshire
Visit site
its true, it is wrong to harp on about the bad, but, why do i feel uncomfortable watching this horse?, i am here to try and understand why when i look at the almost best of the best i cannot enjoy what i am seeing.

i see a horse holding itself in a way that is in conflict with the very purpose of dressage, which should be manifested in the sheer physical beauty of the spectacle, i just don't see that when i look at this horse.

i believe the purpose of training is to render the horse rideable and condition it to deliver the demands of any competant rider, that is the proof of correct training, without the use of force, if competition dressage causes so much controversy then there are questions to be answered and debated.

Yes, but it's about what your eye has been developed into thinking is correct and your level of understanding of the horse and rider in question, no? I have been to Holland and Germany, on Olympic and world champion's yards and, yes, at first I was shocked at the different methods used, but once I got to KNOW the horses and riders, I began to understand the whys, hows and wherefores. I sometimes feel that people don't take the time to try and undsertand the reasoning behind a certain style of riding/training.

I have watched this thread with interest as my OH, who many, many people know is a sympathetic rider and trainer (training at GP, but no where NEAR the level concerned here) was targeted by someone taking pictures of him in a warm up three years ago when we first moved into a new area. They posted them on the internet and put a nasty caption relating to rollkur below. This could have potentially ruined him, but luckily we have a very good, loyal client base, who have stuck with us and for this we love them dearly. The picture in question was taken at a moment when the horse was attempting to run through the bridle during some changes due to excitement - he was feeling very, very well and is bred to be exuberant, sharp and expressive - occasionally he does have a small explosion. The OH took a rather large half halt to avoid a collision and sadly at this very point in time someone was pointing a camera at him. Had the whole reel of pics been published, it would have shown a VERY different story.The comments posted below still haunt me - people who don't even know us or the horse were passing very cruel, unfair judgement. We love our horses dearly and would never, ever knowingly cause them harm.

And I can confirm now that we have NEVER used rollkur - we would not know how. I am not avocating it either! Simply pointing out these things are not black and white.

Regarding the comment about how trained horses should be ridable for any competent jockey, IMHO I really don't feel that this is the case. Yes, a horse should BEHAVE when another rider gets on, but performing in competition is another matter entirely. Riders have specific methods of training their own horses. These horses are SO highly in tune to their rider that they become ultra sensitive to the smallest movement that their rider makes. A tiny movement in the seat can trigger a thousand things. Horsemanship is, after all, about the partnership in question... which is partly why I love it - it is unique to the combination and no one else will be able to feel what you have. This is true from the bottom of equestrian sports right through to the top.

So although I appreciate the need for debate, having been on the other side of all of this (albeit on a much smaller scale) I urge people to try and understand the reasoning behind riders choices before making judgements based on photographs or hearsay.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
Also, Gal rode that horse for years - although not from the beginning, I think it's important to note - and put all the buttons in. Rath has certainly ridden other horses at that level but not many and not spectacular ones. Really not a fair comparison.

As to whether or not he should have that horse. . .anyone else ever bought a horse a bit above their station? ;)

Re modern competitive dressage being about developing horses for any competent rider, it really has never been about that. It's always been a sport/art for the elite with years to devote.

' The purpose of dressage is to make the horse more beautiful.'

But then you have only to look at any art to see how subjective that is! I think Munnings is beautiful, Pollok not so much and Van Gough leaves me cold. :)
 

viola

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 August 2005
Messages
1,887
Location
UK & Europe
aspireequestrian.wordpress.com
Debate is good. I guess the question is what are we debating?

Hmm, I asked myself this very question after replying on this thread and then reading other replies. For me it comes down simply to a few questions: do I watch the way the top of the sport is going (in some areas; there are of course many wonderful and positive combinations out there across the disciplines) and shut up as it's not my business and not my right to appraise it from the low levels that I am at;

Do I agree with "the way it is", "that's how some top riders are" and "that's the methods which makes the champions" or even "that's how it's been done for years and some top masters were this way"...

Or do I dare to express the uneasy feeling I have when watching some combinations and training methods (across the disciplines). Do I dare to ask myself if it's good to support something that in the end makes me feel ashamed to be part of it.

It happened that the story of Totilas really brought the issue into the light and made it visible to the wider audiences via emotional aspect of it. Same goes for better and wider education about equine biomechanics. I do actually feel sorry for Matthias Rath and don't think it's the actual riders that are the core of the problem here. To me it is down to something being allowed to happen or not. Supported by the masses, by the judges, horse owners, riders etc or not...

I guess that's my internal debate.
 

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
6,586
Visit site
sorry,! but did'nt actually say that the purpose of dressage its to make the horse more beautiful, but more meant to express the thought that the beauty is a sort of proof of superior physical conditioning visable during the work shown, and validades the methods used.

viola i find your thoughts spot on, you must have a very great understanding and empathy with horses!
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
I go back to my earlier point though, that art is subjective.

My interest in horses is not primarily competitive, so it's very easy for me to abstain from an opinion. My only point was that many people who have an opinion, both on the individuals and the schools of thought, are a) perhaps not seeking to understand why certain choices are being made and b) making their own choices, for whatever reason, which are not always completely in their horse's best interests.

I can't really agree that dressage has fundamentally changed, I think we are simply further on the continuum and now armed with the internet. Nor can I agree that ' classical' riding, whatever that means, is necessarily traditionally horse friendly. Baucher was into some pretty freaky s**t! Or how about Olivera teaching horses to canter backwards or on three legs!!

It is human nature to go to extremes, especially in competition. I don't think you necessarily have to throw the baby out with the bath water on a personal choice level though. It is a conflict. I personally love riding a talented horse going well. It is such a buzz. But I am not by nature an extremist so it's easy for me to opt out - it doesn't mean I necessarily have the right to judge others who make different choices.

What I don't like about the rolkur debate is it's too easy. It's hardly the only way you can hurt a horse and there is some debate if, done in certain situations, it does long term damage. At the end of the day you can only control your own efforts. If debates make people think about their own riding, that's great. If it's just about slings and arrows then it doesn't really count for much.
 

Foxford

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 October 2006
Messages
2,616
Visit site
TS, what about if people dislike Rolkur because of the effect it has on the overall picture of the horse? Taking away any welfare issues (and I agree there are far worse things people do to horses!) what if I simply find it disappointing that such a talented horse was trained in this system? Imagine what he could have been like if someone from a more classical school had trained him from the beginning? Maybe he would have been a nobody!? But maybe he would have dominated the sport for years... Who knows. That's something that does make me think though, especially when questions over soundness raise their ugly head.
 

Foxford

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 October 2006
Messages
2,616
Visit site
WATCH BEFORE IT GETS CENSORED!
Totilas warm-up at at Hagen! - a video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsuAXC7yeek

I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.
 

noodle_

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 October 2010
Messages
5,084
Location
Earth...
Visit site
I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.

personally i think the horse is totally ruined....

dosent make pleasent viewing... :/
 

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
6,586
Visit site
the debate uncovers the layers until we arrive at some sort truth about what's really going on with the horse.

and does technical perfection come before artistic merit or vice versa, and can it ever be right if it is technically correct but not pleasing to look at, even if it gets 80 percent plus.

tarr steps, i'm not certain but i think cantering backwards, (canter to the rear) is a movement natural to the horse and and is quite easy to get from a horse who can canter in place, it is shown by iberian horses at liberty, and also cantering sideways, due to the work they are bred to do, ie bullfighting and working cattle
 

oldvic

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2008
Messages
1,652
Visit site
I'm just confused about the whole thing, quite frankly. It's no secret Gal rides in a school that uses extreme flexion as a schooling exercise. When Rath went another way, he was making the horse unhappy, then they were slated for giving in and going back to Sjef, now he's being attacked even though people agree the horse looks happier in the ring. Can't win for trying.

I think the point about the horses is that many of these individuals are really not 'normal', both naturally and in the way they are produced. Most people never sit on anything close because, quite frankly, if they end up in the general population it either ends in disaster or the horse is diminished, even subconsciously, so the rest of us can ride it! I don't mean to insult anyone but it's like taking someone out of their Clio and dropping them into a F1 car on the start line. Personally, I wouldn't know the first thing to do and I've ridden a few 'average' good horses - good enough to know I'd struggle with a REALLY good one. I know a very good GP rider, currently getting into World Cup finals, been to a couple of Olympics, who briefly owned one of the most famously 'rolkur-ed' horses ever. She sold him to the person who eventually made him a star because, by her own admission, she couldn't cope and didn't want to. :)

You can argue whether or not competitive dressage *should* reward horses like that but it is what it is. Top level dressage has never been about making horses for the average rider!

As to hard training. . .well, two of the most famous examples of modern masters, men who are now held up as examples of classical training, were, if you are to believe people who knew and rode with them, VERY hard on their horses. They were not in it for the giggles and the good times. ;)

It's a mistake to assume all good riders are necessarily always sympathetic horsemen. Even the ones that tend that way are ambitious by definition and don't always make the choices other riders might make.

As far as horses always looking comfortable and happy. . .that IS a tricky one? Can everyone say their own riding always fulfils that criteria? No one has ever made a horse hurt with their riding? Really? I know it doesn't excuse anything but you know what they say about casting stones. Most of us put our interests and ambitions before our horses' best interests quite regularly. We just don't have people taking photos and putting them on the internet. ;)

Debate is good. I guess the question is what are we debating? As FB said, the heroes and villains often seem so arbitrary and but always related to reality. Also, many of the leaders DO have personal and political investment. This doesn't mean they're wrong but it does make it difficult for the rest of us to accurately assess the debate.

The voice of reason! What sensible comments.

its true, it is wrong to harp on about the bad, but, why do i feel uncomfortable watching this horse?, i am here to try and understand why when i look at the almost best of the best i cannot enjoy what i am seeing.

i see a horse holding itself in a way that is in conflict with the very purpose of dressage, which should be manifested in the sheer physical beauty of the spectacle, i just don't see that when i look at this horse.

i believe the purpose of training is to render the horse rideable and condition it to deliver the demands of any competant rider, that is the proof of correct training, without the use of force, if competition dressage causes so much controversy then there are questions to be answered and debated.

Training makes average horses rideable by competent riders. Top class horses are a totally different ball game. There are exceptions that prove the rule but they are beyond the comprehension of most people. I am a very competent driver but I certainly wouldn't even pretend that I would be capable of driving an F1 car. Why should it be presumed that a highly charged supreme athlete of a horse is any different? They are not just trained, they are trained for competition and to have that ring presence and courage they must normally have something extra. I am not advocating rollkur but I seem to remember that when Rembrandt came on the scene there was controversy because Nicole Uphoff worked him low, deep and round. This was to help control the exuberance and keep him connected. The Dutch feel the need for rollkur presumably for similar reasons. These huge moving powerful horses don't necessarily follow the normal rules so they do what they think they have to to mould the movement and power into something workable without taking it away.

I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.

When he gave the rein in walk Totilas ran on so MAR did what he felt necessary to point out the error of his ways. As for the rest, there was some very high quality piaffe and passage and you could be upset at the outline.
 

Freddie19

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 November 2011
Messages
286
Location
Northern Ireland
Visit site
Any pictures of this horse since he left gal upset me. No rhyme and reason he just seems to have lost so much spark, even his coat doesn't look the same. He just seems dull in the eyes.

Here you go CallyH, not one other poster has commented on your post!!

I know nothing about dressage (pure), but must agree with you. But then, new owner, new rider and most importantly new groom, is he a happy horse, I think not....but then money speaks does it not. Oh and I wonder how often does this guy get out hacking and even more importantly get out in a field grazing? Rock on Carl Hester I say, let horses have a normal life.
 

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
6,586
Visit site
it was rumoured that uphoff used deep, which is different from rollkur, for among other reasons because rembrandt was very spooky, not certain if that is true, and i see no comparison to the work shown by rembrandt which was so consistantly brilliant especially when he won olympic gold, and toto, uphoff looked like she was 'following the horse' in every iota of movement, in fact charlotte dujardin's win reminded me of that performance, as if their very stability and connection to the movement enabled the brillance to come through.
 

B-B

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 April 2011
Messages
402
Visit site
The voice of reason! What sensible comments.



Training makes average horses rideable by competent riders. Top class horses are a totally different ball game. There are exceptions that prove the rule but they are beyond the comprehension of most people. I am a very competent driver but I certainly wouldn't even pretend that I would be capable of driving an F1 car. Why should it be presumed that a highly charged supreme athlete of a horse is any different? They are not just trained, they are trained for competition and to have that ring presence and courage they must normally have something extra. I am not advocating rollkur but I seem to remember that when Rembrandt came on the scene there was controversy because Nicole Uphoff worked him low, deep and round. This was to help control the exuberance and keep him connected. The Dutch feel the need for rollkur presumably for similar reasons. These huge moving powerful horses don't necessarily follow the normal rules so they do what they think they have to to mould the movement and power into something workable without taking it away.



When he gave the rein in walk Totilas ran on so MAR did what he felt necessary to point out the error of his ways. As for the rest, there was some very high quality piaffe and passage and you could be upset at the outline.

Good points made
 

Bills

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2009
Messages
1,329
Visit site
I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.

He resembles those Tennessee walking horses in some bits of that video!! :(
 

oldvic

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 December 2008
Messages
1,652
Visit site
it was rumoured that uphoff used deep, which is different from rollkur, for among other reasons because rembrandt was very spooky, not certain if that is true, and i see no comparison to the work shown by rembrandt which was so consistantly brilliant especially when he won olympic gold, and toto, uphoff looked like she was 'following the horse' in every iota of movement, in fact charlotte dujardin's win reminded me of that performance, as if their very stability and connection to the movement enabled the brillance to come through.

Yes it is different to rollkur but, in those days, it was still frowned on. Yes, she used it to control him and his exuberance (or spooking if you prefer) and keep him connected and through his back. The point I was illustrating was that extraordinary horses don't always follow normal rules. Like Totilas, Rembrandt caused much discussion because he could be spooky and some things he did received very high marks in spite of not being classically correct - he didn't sit in piaffe so his transitions to passage were incorrect even if in superb rhythm. He was so different to those that preceded him, beautiful to watch in spite of what people liked to say. Totilas is also beautiful to watch in spite of some imperfections.
 

Bearskin

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 September 2009
Messages
665
Location
England
Visit site
WATCH BEFORE IT GETS CENSORED!
Totilas warm-up at at Hagen! - a video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsuAXC7yeek

For the posters who have said that Totilas looked "Happier" in the Hagen tests, the above video explains why. You should not confuse Happy with submissive.

Tarrsteps, I once worked for a rider whose training ethic was "if it runs out to the left beat it on the left side of its neck, if it runs out to the right beat it on the right side of the neck, if it stops dead, beat it on both sides of the neck. If there are no wheals you have not hit it hard enough." This person went on to be head team selector in their country and is a "well respected" trainer.....

Rollkur is not beating your horse. It is however a form of training which uses extreme submission. Lines have to be drawn and the debate should continue. If we accept extreme methods now, where will it end? The horse should be given the option to express its discomfort and we should use our brains and not our fists to find the solutions.
 

Above&Beyond

Active Member
Joined
5 April 2012
Messages
38
Visit site
For the posters who have said that Totilas looked "Happier" in the Hagen tests, the above video explains why. You should not confuse Happy with submissive.

I think this is smth I think of every time someone mentions the word "happy", because ppl seem to assume a horse that 'plays by the rules' and performs as is asked of it means it is happy! But is that really happiness? And how will you ever know if that horse is truly happy from just watching it perform at a competition?

I go back to my earlier point though, that art is subjective.
I can't really agree that dressage has fundamentally changed, I think we are simply further on the continuum and now armed with the internet. Nor can I agree that ' classical' riding, whatever that means, is necessarily traditionally horse friendly. Baucher was into some pretty freaky s**t! Or how about Olivera teaching horses to canter backwards or on three legs!!

I agree! Many things are still the same, how they are perceived and shared is different, rollkur has been around for a long time, its not until now that it has changed the rules.

tarr steps, i'm not certain but i think cantering backwards, (canter to the rear) is a movement natural to the horse and and is quite easy to get from a horse who can canter in place

This is a bit off the point, but I'm sure I read about how Olivera realised he was wrecking his horses through teaching them to canter backwards, it's not natural in my opinion.
 

Booboos

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 January 2008
Messages
12,776
Location
South of France
Visit site
MAR must be feeling that Toto is a bit of a poisoned chalice by now, he can't do right with the horse for doing wrong!

For me, from the videos I have seen doing the rounds, it's clear that Toto is much happier being ridden in rolkur and comes out doing a much more obedient, supple and co-operative test, than when ridden in the German method (whatever that might be). The horse has decided which method works for him and made it quite clear what he prefers.
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
This is a bit off the point, but I'm sure I read about how Olivera realised he was wrecking his horses through teaching them to canter backwards, it's not natural in my opinion.

I've heard something similar. It's not at all uncommon for "masters" to change their tune somewhere along the line - Fillis and Baucher both adapted their training to be more "horse friendly" as time went by. One could also argue as they became richer and more famous and were able to do as the wished and not as was expected of them.

And it's not just dressage - John Lyons has changed his tune, Monty Roberts has adapted his methods etc etc. The quote in my sig refers to the same idea. People change as they mature. People also get weaker and smarter (hopefully) as they age, and often seek to do with smarts what they used to do with strength.

My point is that people have always paid to watch a show, be it kings or ticket holders. To some extent this is what we expect of these people - to push the boundaries.

By the way, to play devil's advocate how does everyone know that all is sweetness and light with the chosen few? Because they say so? Who has seen unauthorised video of them training at home? They've certainly not heard unvetted reports from employees because they sign confidentiality agreements. There was a scandal in the US a few years back when someone was videoed over a fence but that is MUCH harder to do there and here than in most of Europe, where dressage is much more a popular sport and much more under the general microscope. I'm not saying people outside of Germany or Holland ARE doing "uncomfortable" things behind closed doors but I'm intrigued that everyone assumes they aren't just because, and only because, they say it's so!

(And again, I am not accusing anyone of anything. I'm merely asking how people know it to be true!)

Let's face it, modern dressage horses are pretty spectacular beasts. They don't come working like that although they do come with all the raw material and that can be damn scary! Yes, they are being pushed to extremes. ALL of them. And extremes are, by definition, dangerous. But, then again, they are extreme horses and if they weren't being world class dressage horses I doubt they'd be "happy" RC horses or hackers.
 

Booboos

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 January 2008
Messages
12,776
Location
South of France
Visit site
Baucher is described by his contemporaries as having been brutal to his horses and as having ruined a number of horses by stiffling their desire to go forwards. Apparently he then had an accident and lost partial use of his limbs...which funnily enough led to a revision of his methods to more subtle aids!
 
Top