Turning out a clipped horse with no rug to lose weight ?

NovemberQuestion said:
Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this….
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THIS is what the vet advised. No rug if dry, light rug if wet. My experience is that horses are not bothered by cold, only by cold in combination with wind and/or rain.
 
Oh god, I'm one of those dreadful people going to hell! My horse runs extremely hot and if he gets too warm he rubs himself to pieces. He is currently full clipped and out in a 70g rug! And he still sweats lightly in that if it's not a vile day. I'm on a fairly big yard (30+ horses) and mine was the last to have a rug on overnight, that was only after he was clipped. I think we anthropomorphise horses way too much, just because we want a thick coat and wooly jumper on doesn't mean our buddy needs one too!
And what difference does it make if the horse is out in the daytime or night time? I didn't know temperature scale changed when the sun goes down...
 
abbijay said:
Oh god, I'm one of those dreadful people going to hell! My horse runs extremely hot and if he gets too warm he rubs himself to pieces. He is currently full clipped and out in a 70g rug! And he still sweats lightly in that if it's not a vile day. I'm on a fairly big yard (30+ horses) and mine was the last to have a rug on overnight, that was only after he was clipped. I think we anthropomorphise horses way too much, just because we want a thick coat and wooly jumper on doesn't mean our buddy needs one too!
And what difference does it make if the horse is out in the daytime or night time? I didn't know temperature scale changed when the sun goes down...
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Night time is always colder than day time. :confused3: All horses are different. You obviously have a very hot horse, and besides there is a huge difference between the warmth offered by a 70g rug and a no fill rug or being naked.
 
I don't think anyone was suggesting a 70g rug meant you were going to hell!!? nothing wrong with that.

And if the advice was given a couple of weeks ago when warmer and wasn't intended for when it was freezing over night how much weight did the vet expect the horse to lose in that time!? I just find it very odd not to suggest leaving rug off when dry/sunny and under rugging the rest of the time.

I think it is fair to stick with trends when suggesting there is a difference between day and night, we aren't talking specific days and nights here!
 
Can I just say that its interesting that November14 hasn't shared anything on this thread other than what they have taken from another forum.
They haven't graced us with an opinion, but it seems an act to pick on someone indirectly for asking for advice.
If you care to read the original post from another forum (whom is aware of this one it appears) the OP said she would rug in wet weather and leave out naked if dry.
We don't know what shelter is available, how protected the field is from the elements, or even if they are in the UK!
 
cptrayes said:
What is the difference between being cold due to insufficient food wearing a rug, and cold due to insufficient food not wearing a rug?


A bellyful of food.

Besides which, horses are great self regulators of heat and it will be mobilising fat to keep warm, it will not necessarily be cold (though I would check at midnight and early morning).

Do horses grow winter coats just to keep warm? No, they grow winter coats because there is not enough food around in the winter to keep warm. If they have enough fat use up, there is no reason why they should be unacceptably cold.
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This^
The horse uses about 80% of the energy it consumes to keep warm, in warmer weather the chances are its always going to expend less energy than it consumes, with rugging in winter we are making the horse use even less energy to keep warm so it does not loose the weight it metabolism it has adapted to loose so when the spring grass starts to come through it is already overweight for the time of year.
We are humans, we evolved lost most of our body hair and now wear clothes, when I was a child we had no central heating and there was ice on the inside of my bedroom windows in winter, we wore more clothes indoors, I now have central heating and I can walk round in my indies in winter if I want .Horses did not evolve to wear clothes of any sort, its a man or women made thing, in several parts of the world day and night temperatures vary by 10+C and horses cope. Me must not confuse our metabolism with that of the horse, as far as I know I have heard of no horses that live in caves of their own choice and have fashioned woven rugs. A clipped horse or an overly thin horse or human will grow extra body hair if cold
Our winters are generally milder, I find that horses are more likely to feel cold in prolonged wet weather, when they are unable to dry their coat, cold temperatures do not seem to bother them so as long as the clipped horse is not shivering and has plenty of forage it would not bother me. If the horse is starting to show signs of feeling cold its easy to bring it in, dry it off and put a rug on it, unfortunately a bout of laminitis is not such a quick fix.
 
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No no I would not do that at all. It is like having a fat person in vest and pants and having no heating on in the house.

Diet, exercise and if need be a light weight rug but would not full clip without rugging up.
 
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Well I Never said:
Can I just say that its interesting that November14 hasn't shared anything on this thread other than what they have taken from another forum.
They haven't graced us with an opinion, but it seems an act to pick on someone indirectly for asking for advice.
If you care to read the original post from another forum (whom is aware of this one it appears) the OP said she would rug in wet weather and leave out naked if dry.
We don't know what shelter is available, how protected the field is from the elements, or even if they are in the UK!
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Does it matter? They've just posted facts and sparked a general discussion that has been quite interesting. They've not grumbled about the other poster or given a link or identity, to me that's a good thing. You're the one offering links that could identify..
 
honetpot said:
This^
Horses did not evolve to wear clothes of any sort, its a man or women made thing, in several parts of the world day and night temperatures vary by 10+C and horses cope.
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But clipping is also a manmade thing. I have no problems with people not rugging horses... unless they are clipped. If you clip a horse you have removed their mechanism for controlling their temperature. A clipped horse will not grow its hair any faster if it is cold. The only exception to this are the ugly guard hairs you sometimes see on clipped horses. These are stimulated by the horse getting too cold on a regular basis, but are useless in keeping them warm.
 
Whilst the weather is still mild ( above 8 regress at night) I would be happy turning out a fully clipped horse 24/7 unrugged if a vet advised it, provided I could get there quickly to pop a rain sheet on if it did start raining. Once rain comes I would be putting a rain sheet on and nothing else until I seriously thought something warmer was needed. I under rug mine anyway as would rather they kept themselves warm moving about than just stood in one place eating and getting fat. I also like my horses to come out of winter looking thin and ready for spring.
 
It is a fallacy horses move around to keep warm. They don't. In the coldest and wettest conditions they stand absolutely still, tails to the wind.
 
Wow! What a response this thread has got!

I am the owner of the horse in question - I'm not quite sure how this thread appeared over here but I guess it's good to get a good variety of opinions.

I don't really want to go into a great deal of detail, but I would say that my horse means the world to me and it's not easy trying to balance the needs of the horse, with his weight. I am a great believer in letting a horse live as naturally as possible. I don't want to stable him overnight, and I don't want to turn him out into a small 'fatty' paddock on his own. He is in a large field and is muzzled constantly between March and late September. The field does have too much grass in it for my horses needs (which I realise is the route of the problem), but I don't have the control over the size of the fields or the horses on it. Plus I want to stay on this yard.

My horse came to me as a condition score of 5 and after 2 years of battling his weight I have got this down to a 4. He has no hard feed, is ridden everyday but even with the muzzling and all the exercise I can manage, I still cannot shift the fat pads from his bum and neck. God knows, I have tried! While it would be the ideal solution to have him out on poorer grazing with a herd of friends, this isn't possible for us. Not every option is available so we cannot always offer the perfect solution.

As the weather was so mild in September I fully clipped him (as he was dripping with sweat just standing still) and turned him out naked. As it was 15 degrees overnight he coped with this fine. I checked him late at night and first thing in the morning and he was toasty warm. His coat grew back quickly and I reclipped in late September. The weather was still very mild (with no rain) so I checked him very carefully and turned him out naked again. He was fine, never seemed cold, never standing by the gate, still difficult as ever to catch! The field has hedges on 3 sides so there is lots of natural shelter for him.

Last week the vet came for his jabs and was concerned that he still hadn't dropped below a condition score of 4. He was worried that this would have a negative impact on his joints (as he is a very big horse) and that he risked laminitis. We talked at length about his care and the set up of the yard, and he agreed that my horse is better left out in the field and as he had coped very well with being turned out naked so far, his advice was to try and increase his metabolic rate by keeping him colder over winter. He explained that as long as there is lots of forage in the field (which there is) my horse will keep constantly eating which will keep him warm from the inside. The digestion of forage in the gut will act as an internal central heating system and heat him from the inside out. However, as we have removed the outer layer of heat control (i.e. his coat) his metabolic system will have to work harder to warm him whole body. He is a very hardy cob - not a thin skinned TB.

Now of course I am monitoring the situation carefully and of course I am not going to fully clip him and turn him out in freezing cold night and while it is pouring with rain. I am not cruel and I am not stupid. I am concerned about him being cold and I am worried about him. I worried about him both being cold and suffering, and also not losing weight and developing problems in spring. There is no easy solution.

I originally posted about this because I was upset that the vet told me my horse was still far too fat and listed all the terrible consequences. Sometimes in life you just need to vent and the internet is a great place to write down how you feel and have people 'listen' to what you have to say. I will always take the collective advice from my vet and my very knowledgeable yard manager and riding instructor. While it's great to hear what people on internet forums have to say, with all due respect you do not know my horse or the circumstances.

So thanks for all your input, but please don't label me as a cruel, stupid and uncaring owner for wanting the best for my horse. I will never see him suffer but at the same time I will listen to a very experienced vet who also wants the best for my horse.
 
I don't think any of us would label you cruel knowing the full story. You very much sound as though you weighed everything up and went off what more experienced people advised and are monitoring the situation. It's just interesting to discuss.

For what it's worth, we had a weigh bridge at our yard and one lady with a Clydesdale got scored very highly. The horse lives out, is fit and works hard five or six days a week, yet scored 4. My ISH scored 3 and yet is not fit enough to work as hard. I thought the lady doing the score was quite hard on her. A heavy horse is always going to have a rounder bottom etc.

I had a similar discussion with my dog vet. One of our labs is a heavy type and weighs a lot. The vet thought she should weigh less, yet I can easily see her waist and ribs when she moves. The other lab is under his advised weight, yet to me looks fatter and has less weight. It is a totally different type to the bigger lab..
 
Thank you Honey08. It's so hard to balance his needs. I have been working so hard on getting him fit and healthy over the last year. We have been doing so much jumping and faster work, I really thought that we were making progress, so when the vet told me that he was still far too fat I was so disappointed. He has a huge apple bottom, and a gutter. He pressed his bum and as it sprang back out at he explained that this is pure fat and not the muscle I thought.

I know that I am striving for perfection, but I just want him muscled and not fat. The vet warned of joint problems if he doesn't drop at least 50kg and this scared me. My horse is only 10, but any talk of shortening his working life and making him in pain makes me so scared. I would do anything to give him eternal life and I just want to do what is best for him. He is everything to me.
 
Honey08 said:
I don't think any of us would label you cruel knowing the full story. You very much sound as though you weighed everything up and went off what more experienced people advised and are monitoring the situation. It's just interesting to discuss.

For what it's worth, we had a weigh bridge at our yard and one lady with a Clydesdale got scored very highly. The horse lives out, is fit and works hard five or six days a week, yet scored 4. My ISH scored 3 and yet is not fit enough to work as hard. I thought the lady doing the score was quite hard on her. A heavy horse is always going to have a rounder bottom etc.
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Agree. My mare still had a slight apple bum even when she was really skinny (probably around a 2 out of 5 due to keeping her thin because of laminitis). Some vets are very blinkered when looking at heavier built horses.
 
NovemberQuestion said:
Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this….
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Never would consider this - soak hay change feed to light cut down intake calories. Never freeze his butt just to lose weight seems very unfair to me.
 
MPop said:
Thank you Honey08. It's so hard to balance his needs. I have been working so hard on getting him fit and healthy over the last year. We have been doing so much jumping and faster work, I really thought that we were making progress, so when the vet told me that he was still far too fat I was so disappointed. He has a huge apple bottom, and a gutter. He pressed his bum and as it sprang back out at he explained that this is pure fat and not the muscle I thought.

I know that I am striving for perfection, but I just want him muscled and not fat. The vet warned of joint problems if he doesn't drop at least 50kg and this scared me. My horse is only 10, but any talk of shortening his working life and making him in pain makes me so scared. I would do anything to give him eternal life and I just want to do what is best for him. He is everything to me.
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Mpop - How refreshing to hear of an obese horse owner that is working hard and taking vets advise to reduce the weight of your horse. I have seen some really obese horses lately with owners that are not doing anything to change it. I wish they could understand the health problems they are opening their horses up to :(

Just a question - Is he still muzzled? From the sounds of it it sounds like the muzzle came off in September, if so, I would put it back on, even if just overnight. My Section A is still muzzled and will be all Winter probably. I would rather she wasn't but needs must!

I'm not entering into the rug or not debate as you seem to be taking all precautions to ensure he stays healthy and doesn't get too cold!
 
Wagtail said:
It is a fallacy horses move around to keep warm. They don't. In the coldest and wettest conditions they stand absolutely still, tails to the wind.
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Yes they stand still tails to the wind to conserve heat in worst weather but their body needs fuel aka grass to produce the energy reserves to maintain warmth so at some point they must move about to search for food to keep warm. I would rather encourage the foraging than rug up as personally i think as long as there is adequete shelter, their own coat is enough for 90% of horses and an awful lot of people rug with this weight or that when a rain sheet if anything at all, would be sufficient. If horses are clipped then yes they will need warmer rugging but still i do think from what i see locally, there does seem to be a tendancy to over do it. Also I think an awful lot of people are afraid of letting their horses get winter thin for fear of being judged by other people when actually their horses would probably benefit from it come spring but that's just my opinion.
 
Mpop, you are very obviously a caring owner who wants the best for her horse. The OP was asking for opinions on a given situation and people have voiced those opinions. So any reference to cruelty was not being aimed at you personally. IMO and experience, vets very often get things wrong and you must be guided by your own instincts and knowledge of your own horse when following (or not) any advice. Many bigger boned breeds of horses will have apple bums even when an ideal weight. But it seems you have everything well in hand and you are sure your horse is comfortable and happy. Good luck with the weight loss. Just one more thing - you say he is no longer muzzled but yet is out with too much grass. Could you muzzle him for part of the time? Would that be an option?
 
kez81 said:
Yes they stand still tails to the wind to conserve heat in worst weather but their body needs fuel aka grass to produce the energy reserves to maintain warmth so at some point they must move about to search for food to keep warm. I would rather encourage the foraging than rug up as personally i think as long as there is adequete shelter, their own coat is enough for 90% of horses and an awful lot of people rug with this weight or that when a rain sheet if anything at all, would be sufficient. If horses are clipped then yes they will need warmer rugging but still i do think from what i see locally, there does seem to be a tendancy to over do it. Also I think an awful lot of people are afraid of letting their horses get winter thin for fear of being judged by other people when actually their horses would probably benefit from it come spring but that's just my opinion.
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I agree that many people over rug and that is just as bad as letting your horse freeze IMO. The problem I have is when we clip the whole coat off and then not rug.
 
The friend with the Clydesdale I mentioned trying to lose weight clips hers and leaves him without rugs in winter, but he has a trace, bib or chaser so that his back still has protection from the wind and rain. He lives on a hill in the Pennines but can access the stable yard if he wants (very rarely does, more for flies in summer..).
 
Yes, I did take his muzzle off when I first clipped him in September. I was worried that he wasn't getting enough to eat to keep himself warm when he was clipped, but in hindsight I wish that I had kept it on. However, while he has put on a tiny bit since then (perhaps 10kg on the weight tape) this has not been hugely significant. We seemed to reach a stable weight over the summer where he wouldn't put on any more weight, but he wouldn't lose it either.

I will think about putting the muzzle back on, but as the weather has turned very cold and wet, I want him to 'fire up' that internal furnace and get the forage inside his body. I worry that he won't get enough food to keep himself warm.

Thank you all for being so welcoming by the way. I expected to have eggs thrown at me!
 
When I bought my horse as a 2 year old, he had been fully clipped out in December and then turned out in the field for the rest of the winter. There was a field shelter. He survived. His coat grew cat hairs.
 
Wagtail said:
I agree that many people over rug and that is just as bad as letting your horse freeze IMO. The problem I have is when we clip the whole coat off and then not rug.
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I would only turn him out naked on a very mild night (like it was during the whole of September), or if it was colder and his clip had half grown out. For the last 3 nights he has worn a light weight rug. I'm not actually sure if this is a rainsheet or a weighted rug (don't know too much about rugs), but it can't be more than 70g at most.

I'm not sure what I will do going forward, take each day as it comes I think.
 
MPop said:
I would only turn him out naked on a very mild night (like it was during the whole of September), or if it was colder and his clip had half grown out. For the last 3 nights he has worn a light weight rug. I'm not actually sure if this is a rainsheet or a weighted rug (don't know too much about rugs), but it can't be more than 70g at most.

I'm not sure what I will do going forward, take each day as it comes I think.
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Sorry, I wasn't aiming my comment at you as you had already explained your horse will only be naked on mild dry days. You know your horse and I do not. Some horses are 'hot' horses, particularly if they have a good layer of blubber.
 
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