Ugly Dressage

[gunnergundog]

Everyone on this planet/all species experience stress. How the individuals deal with that stress is down to a balance of nature versus nurture.

Firstly, genetics. Breed from sound mental and physical stock as a priority above all else .
Secondly, nurture. Expose and educate as appropriate.

Racehorses get flown into Longchamps on the day of a big race. If they couldn't handle it, it wouldn't happen given the £££ at stake.
Also, whoever said about being buffeted around and whatever when being flown has never worked as a flying groom. I have, albeit 20 plus years ago and things have improved since then. There ain't an awful lot of difference with business or first class as far as buffeting goes, trust me!

 

[ycbm]

Firstly, genetics. Breed from sound mental and physical stock as a priority above all else .

If only they would at top level, but far from it, they are breeding for movement, jump, and "presence".

Racehorses get flown into Longchamps on the day of a big race. If they couldn't handle it, it wouldn't happen given the £££ at stake.

There are benefits to heightened adrenalin in race horses. Horses feeling threat run faster, it's what carrying a whip is all about.

Also, whoever said about being buffeted around and whatever when being flown has never worked as a flying groom. I have, albeit 20 plus years ago and things have improved since then. There ain't an awful lot of difference with business or first class as far as buffeting goes, trust me!

I made that comment. Planes are still subject to turbulence, it goes with flying. You can't stabilise a plane the way you can a cruise ship these days, though having said that there were broken bones and windows on a cruise ship this year. And turbulence on my last flight.
.

 

[gunnergundog]

There are benefits to heightened adrenalin in race horses. Horses feeling threat run faster, it's what carrying a whip is all about.




Heightened adrenalin can work to an extent in some horses....not all. It can also deliver the reverse; it is an inexact science and varies from individual horse to horse. With some it enhances performance and with others it kills it.

I agree with you about the placing of extreme performance above mental and physical performance unfortunately. This is certainly true with performance dogs, which is probably more my area of expertise than horses nowadays.

 

[AdorableAlice]

All my horses love going on the lorry

One of mine is embarrassing, she will load onto the first lorry she sees, I have to keep a hold of her in lorry parks. I've tried explaining to her that her bulk would need a tin opener to extract her if she got on those transit van boxes. At home she strops if she is left behind. We take her to Sainsburys when we fuel the truck just to amuse her, and we travel her for a few miles, throw her and a rider out for them to hack home. She adores the lorry and watching her on the camera, her ears are pricked throughout the trips, and she peers through the window.

 

[Snow Falcon]

My old boy used to love going on the trailer. He used to hear my dad pulling up towing and he start dancing and whinnying. We couldn't get the ramp down quick enough for him. Another youngster I had would load himself even if he wasn't going anywhere-something he still does apparently!

 

[equinerebel]

The public do not care as much as you think. Vocal minority. Snoop Dog watching dressage saw a horse crip walking and not a horse so stressed that the sport should be banned.

One of us is right, and I’d hate to see people turn against all forms of riding horses because the elite lot have ruined it for everyone else

If, god forbid, a fatality or two happened in an equestrian discipline at the olympics, what do you think the public would say? And do you think the IOC would keep them in? I’m thinking back to the modern pentathlon scandal at Tokyo - show jumping was cut from the sport.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

What about the need for the ugly masks and soundproofing ears and in some cases the blinker things coming off the cheek pieces in SJ, in some instances coupled with a massive bridle

If you're having to dull a sense, why?

I remember eventing in the 90s not a single pair of ear covers to be seen, now they're everywhere - is this because the horses have become even more wired? Same in racing with hoods, seems to be only recently horses run in them

 

[shortstuff99]

One of us is right, and I’d hate to see people turn against all forms of riding horses because the elite lot have ruined it for everyone else

If, god forbid, a fatality or two happened in an equestrian discipline at the olympics, what do you think the public would say? And do you think the IOC would keep them in? I’m thinking back to the modern pentathlon scandal at Tokyo - show jumping was cut from the sport.

A horse died at the Olympics last time on XC and one bled all over the SJ but most have forgotten.

 

[equinerebel]

A horse died at the Olympics last time on XC and one bled all over the SJ but most have forgotten.

I didn’t watch it, so I stand corrected! And yet, the modern pentathlon really did get the public’s attention and show jumping was promptly removed.

Sounds more like luck that the others didn’t go viral rather than the public not caring.

 

[anguscat]

A slightly different view is that the elite end of the sport have produced and educated horses to the point that there is no more that can be physically taken from the horse. We have of course, honed and refined some specific breeds to find the work easier than other breeds might.

Eventing is now all about skinnies, accuracy and distances that need ultimate obedience from a horse that is remote controlled by the rider and not encouraged to think for itself anymore. Dressage has changed a lot too, it is not that many years ago that double canter pirouettes were unheard of. The amount of time spent in piaffe and passage is much increased to the point that the movements put huge and unnatural strain on joints and ligaments. I understand they are natural movements for the horse, my Shire X can do all of them when suitably excited (this morning that was moving his fence for more grazing, a very impressive piaffe was seen for a few seconds !), but no horse, willingly, happily and naturally maintains these intense movements for lengthy periods of time.

The course builders can only build to the physical limit of the horse, so technical questions become evermore complex. Floorplans for freestyle dressage become evermore intense, both to the point of asking for the impossible from the horse. Long distance chasing is no different, there is a limit to how far a horse can keep galloping and in my humble opinion I think we have taken horses to limit in all disciplines now at elite level.

Yes….and the horse-sport loving fans have really started to squirm in their seats (some earlier than others). I hope it’s being noted. Those involved at the elite end need to smell the coffee.

 

[LEC]

A horse died at the Olympics last time on XC and one bled all over the SJ but most have forgotten.

I feel this is a slight misnomer. It was PTS after rupturing a ligament in its leg. It did not just die on XC. It also did not happen at a jump, it went lame.

 

[shortstuff99]

I feel this is a slight misnomer. It was PTS after rupturing a ligament in its leg. It did not just die on XC. It also did not happen at a jump, it went lame.

Well let's be honest the horse still died because of it competing XC. For the general public that equals horse died at the Olympics.

 

[LEC]

Well let's be honest the horse still died because of it competing XC. For the general public that equals horse died at the Olympics.

A horse died yesterday because of a broken leg after falling in a ditch. It died because it was not kept on thousands of acres like it should have been in a herd with no fencing.

So a facetious example, but I think we are getting very caught up on this thread with falling down a rabbit hole around a lack of facts and just narrative.

As with every animal there is a moral and ethical viewpoint. Ultimately none of us should own horses, dogs, cats. Pets really. They are not a protein source so are unjustified really except as humans we have taken a considerable amount of time to domesticate them. Firstly as beasts of work and now they are beasts of leisure.

I think about this stuff but I am not going to stop what I do which is competing and just make sure my horses have as beneficial a life as I can give them for 23 hours a day being horses and then train them suitably to adjust to what I want them to do. Also trying not to fit round pegs into square holes is very useful which I see a huge amount especially in people wanting cobs and horses bred to pull carts. I think ultimately competing will be stopped but I think I will be dead by then. Here is my bit of narrative - the unhappiest horses are those who are confused about their lives and have mixed messages from humans.

 

[shortstuff99]

A horse died yesterday because of a broken leg after falling in a ditch. It died because it was not kept on thousands of acres like it should have been in a herd with no fencing.

So a facetious example, but I think we are getting very caught up on this thread with falling down a rabbit hole around a lack of facts and just narrative.

As with every animal there is a moral and ethical viewpoint. Ultimately none of us should own horses, dogs, cats. Pets really. They are not a protein source so are unjustified really except as humans we have taken a considerable amount of time to domesticate them. Firstly as beasts of work and now they are beasts of leisure.

I think about this stuff but I am not going to stop what I do which is competing and just make sure my horses have as beneficial a life as I can give them for 23 hours a day being horses and then train them suitably to adjust to what I want them to do. Also trying not to fit round pegs into square holes is very useful which I see a huge amount especially in people wanting cobs and horses bred to pull carts. I think ultimately competing will be stopped but I think I will be dead by then. Here is my bit of narrative - the unhappiest horses are those who are confused about their lives and have mixed messages from humans.

It was a reply to a poster saying if a horse died at the Olympics then there would be calls for horses to be banned and I replied that a horse did die at the Olympics (whether you feel it was caused by it or not). So not just something random I brought up.

 

[SEL]

Without wanting to sound heartless I genuinely don't think the general public really pay much attention to what goes on in equine competitive sport - otherwise racing would get a lot more bad press. I've known people at Aintree watch the tents go up around fallen horses and see the carcasses removed but they don't join in the debate about racing being banned (far from it).

I'm not sure whether the pentathlon got more publicity because we had competitors who were in the running for medals although I also think that was one which got a huge amount of negative publicity from the equine community - rightly so - and because we are all so absorbed in this world we think the general public cares as much as we do. Most of them are clueless about dressage and just think the dancing horses look pretty. If you asked them about facial expressions they'd probably say concentrating rather than stressed or put it down to the same stress human competitors feel at a big venue.

I'm relieved to see other owners have horses that seem to enjoy going out and about and being ridden because I was starting to think I was in the minority! I was more than happy to retire the microcob after the vets found a billion things wrong with her, but the pony likes to hack and will bring herself to me in the paddock if she feels its her turn. She will also load herself onto the lorry in the hope of heading off to a new adventure. I'm conscious that she needs tacking up slowly and sensitively but I work with her limitations and she seems happy. Babycob has the attention span of a toddler and adores parties. He would lose the plot if I rocked up to a huge venue tomorrow but its my job to teach him incrementally that bigger parties are ok - by starting with smaller parties.

I do have one I don't ride. Her body isn't ok with carrying a rider but I have land and she can stay as a pet for as long as her body is ok with just being a horse - but that's a luxury I can afford. If we banned all equestrian activities then my land would just be yet more pasture land heading for housing no doubt and I think that would be incredibly sad.

I think it would be hard to ban competing and I don't think we should. Higher welfare standards though I would very much like to see - at all levels.

 

[blitznbobs]

Many horses work less than an hour a day in a job they don’t seem to hate and some seem to love get board and lodgings and warm clothes .Many humans work 60 hours a week at a job they hate to get the bare minimum. I am an animal lover but I also think that there needs to be some prospective… don’t tell me but ‘people have a choice’ because whilst technically they do, it’s not a real choice. Horses have the choice also - they could never be caught, chuck everyone off and refuse to go in a wagon… but they don’t … because I agree that is ultimately not a real choice either

 

[Kunoichi73]

Without wanting to sound heartless I genuinely don't think the general public really pay much attention to what goes on in equine competitive sport - otherwise racing would get a lot more bad press. I've known people at Aintree watch the tents go up around fallen horses and see the carcasses removed but they don't join in the debate about racing being banned (far from it).

I'm not sure whether the pentathlon got more publicity because we had competitors who were in the running for medals although I also think that was one which got a huge amount of negative publicity from the equine community - rightly so - and because we are all so absorbed in this world we think the general public cares as much as we do. Most of them are clueless about dressage and just think the dancing horses look pretty. If you asked them about facial expressions they'd probably say concentrating rather than stressed or put it down to the same stress human competitors feel at a big venue.

I agree with this. My experience is most non-horse people don't see or understand horses exhibiting stress signs. My mum was watching some of the dressage and SJ with me over the last few days and her comments were along the lines of 'that's a beautiful horse' and she's an animal lover. Given that many dog owners don't recognise signs of stress in the animals they live with all the time, it wouldn't surprise me that non-horse people who only see horses on tv, have no idea when a horse is exhibiting stress or displeasure.

 

[equinerebel]

I guess we'll find out one day! Again, I don't want to see the sports removed from the Olympics. My mare loves "working" (although has always hated loading and travelling so we don't do that). I'm not disputing the very evident fact that a lot of horses love what they are asked to do. But we have a responsibility to do right by them, and all too often we see the opposite at the elite ends.

 

[coblets]

Some good news: spurs are going to be optional in FEI competitions from Jan 1 2024.

 

[Rowreach]

There are/have been plenty of people on this forum who cannot see stress in their horses, or unsoundness for that matter. And I'm not talking subtle lameness here.

However, that doesn't mean that some people who are not necessarily elite equestrians cannot see tense, anxiety-ridden horses across all disciplines. There were only two tests that were enjoyable to watch, but it is good to see that these are being acknowledged across SM and the less pretty ones are being questioned.

Mind you, if it's anything like obesity in the show ring, nothing much will change.

 

[tristars]

Some good news: spurs are going to be optional in FEI competitions from Jan 1 2024.

alle flippin lou ya

so should double bridles

jovian has dark marks on his right side, spur region, oh sorry boot polish