Ugly Dressage

[Abacus]

We must not think that we can’t learn about horses welfare with scientific invention from needles and blood screening.
There are loads of ways to assess horses well being on a day to day basis you can train yourself to watch and monitor each horse .
They give you clues all the time.

I partially disgree. Of course you can and should monitor each horse you are responsible for, and spot differences, and signs of stress.

However, objective and controlled research across wider groups gives a body of knowledge and direction to all of us, particularly when it is able to demonstrate findings with factors we can't see and monitor easily, such as heart rate (and this doesn't require invasive needles etc).

Also, if there is to be change in competition rules or welfare laws, peer reviewed research allows for a much stronger argument.

EDITED - I meant objective

 

[ihatework]

I don't think horses get sarcoids from stress. They more than likely have them before they travel.
A lot of competition horses get colic from stress though.

Oh they do! They generally pop up when a horse has been through a period of stress, especially the young ones.

 

[blitznbobs]

that's exactly what you are doing. Humans cope with the stress of a flight halfway around the world to get to the Olympics and then all the atmosphere etc etc so horses should equally. We cope with having tight clothing on for a while because we understand the reasoning. So therefore it doesn't matter if we tie the horses head down, put tight nosebands on, harsh bits etc etc. It too will understand and not find it stressful.

everyone has an agenda. Do what you want with the horse which you can justify to yourself so it can keep on winning and boost your ego.

Do domesticated horses live longer? who knows. I am always very upset with myself if one of mine is PTS before 20. However there are an awful lot PTS a lot earlier due to physically breaking down due to work, let alone the mental wrecks.

Is living longer in a stable on 6 months box rest worse than your 3 days earlier with a painful foot. That 6 months to get the horse sound so it can go out and do it again is no life for the horse.

Don't even go there with shod feet. Any comparison is laughable. The ferals here get onto the roads and get driven in front of cars at a trot. I wonder how many competition horses we could take the shoes off and do that with?

studies are fine. Nothing definite has be proven so lets hide behind the obvious commonsense and pretend there is nothing to prove we are damaging horses mentally and physically

My horse was n vet hospital a few years ago. I spent a lot of time with him looking out at the central aisle as horse after horse hobbled up it for their exams very very lame. Human activity had caused most of that.

In just saying there needs to be studies done - conclusions drawn are to emotively made I have not said either has a bigger or smaller stress response or indeed whether that stress response is beneficial or harmful to the animal. I know in most mammals stress response is required for the healing response to be injury to happen. That is a fact. I guarantee putting a horse in that environment is stressful. I know an animal having an injury causes a stress response.. I know lots of things but what I don’t know is how these things are beneficial or harmful to the animal. Assuming stress is harmful is wrong- it is a necessary part of animals physiology- and mental health in an animal is a whole other world where we really can not compare human to horse as horses essentially do not have a frontal lobe at all where we do all our over thinking… I don’t make any conclusions at all all I said was I would be interested in the research which would by its nature need very careful design

 

[Goldenstar]

Horse’s definitely get sarcoids from stress I have seen it many times
Of course they have the latent virus in them and then stress triggers the sarcoids to grow .
That’s why it’s so common when young inexperienced horses change homes .

 

[ycbm]

Because on balance they are better out moving ,eating less and getting cold
Simple as that .

Then that's not in any way comparable with making them fly. Imo.

 

[Goldenstar]

Why ? If stress is wrong then stress is stress .
I don’t think btw that finding physiological markers for stress necessarily means you should not be doing something.

 

[ycbm]

We all have or engage with horses for our own benefit I’d argue, no exceptions, not even ycbm

If you are talking in general then of course you are correct but I wasn't talking in general. In specific interactions many people frequently do things for the benefit of their horses that are of no benefit to themselves and often detrimental, because it goes with the responsibility of horse owning.
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[ycbm]

Yes to engage with. I suppose I was more referring to putting horses in stressful situations. I remember YCBM once saying that if the horse showed any reluctance to be tacked up that they wouldn't be riding (YCBM, please correct me if I am wrong).

You are correct. I have rarely tied horses up to tack them up, I tack them up in a loose box. I've never had a horse who walked away from the saddle, when it had previously never done so, which didn’t turn out to have something wrong with it.

ETA I'm beginning to seriously question the "feisty fives" and "silly sixes" years that are so common in horses, and to wonder if that’s not when they start to attempt to express discomfort or discontent, which they give up once they realise that nobody is going to listen.
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[ihatework]

If you are talking in general then of course you are correct but I wasn't talking in general. In specific interactions many people frequently do things for the benefit of their horses that are of no benefit to themselves and often detrimental, because it goes with the responsibility of horse owning.
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Yeah, like dragging themselves out of bed early to feed and turn their horses out, detrimental to my back and sleep deprivation!
Sorry your point was lost because it was too vague.
Lots of people do things for the benefit of the horse that are not of explicit benefit to themselves.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it’s great to discuss this subject but with many things with horses there’s very few black and white answers what’s reasonable for one horse is not for another
So I have owned horses that I would not keep out in the conditions I expect these three to get on with it in .
Sky is clipped out and in a 40 gram rug and was through all that awful weather I am tough on him .

 

[NinjaPony]

I think it would be very interesting if a proper study was done into competition horses exhibiting stress markers.

I would find it interesting to see how stress varies from breed to breed vs different styles of handling and riding.

Just anecdotally, my Connemara never showed any stress signs when going out to compete at dressage; he travelled very well with no movement or sweat, warmed up like he was at home and performed a test pretty easily. I wonder whether that was temperament (no one came off him his whole life, he was incredibly easy to handle and ride), or the fact that he only did the one test, and the test was usually at a lower level than we were schooling at, so the pressure was reduced.

I also wonder whether with these top athletic horses, temperament has been sacrificed for ability. I used to warm up with horses who were clearly very stressed, despite performing at the same level as my pony and in the same circumstances. Is that lack of training, or an unstable temperament, or poor handling behind the scenes?

I do think that some horses enjoy an atmosphere; my difficult Welsh was always beautifully behaved at shows and would practically load himself for outings, and others clearly don’t. Is it the case that a top rider is just better at masking this and ‘making’ the horse perform regardless, where an amateur might not be able to?

Threads like this are always very thought provoking!

 

[ihatework]

I think it would be very interesting if a proper study was done into competition horses exhibiting stress markers.

I would find it interesting to see how stress varies from breed to breed vs different styles of handling and riding.

Just anecdotally, my Connemara never showed any stress signs when going out to compete at dressage; he travelled very well with no movement or sweat, warmed up like he was at home and performed a test pretty easily. I wonder whether that was temperament (no one came off him his whole life, he was incredibly easy to handle and ride), or the fact that he only did the one test, and the test was usually at a lower level than we were schooling at, so the pressure was reduced.

I also wonder whether with these top athletic horses, temperament has been sacrificed for ability. I used to warm up with horses who were clearly very stressed, despite performing at the same level as my pony and in the same circumstances. Is that lack of training, or an unstable temperament, or poor handling behind the scenes?

I do think that some horses enjoy an atmosphere; my difficult Welsh was always beautifully behaved at shows and would practically load himself for outings, and others clearly don’t. Is it the case that a top rider is just better at masking this and ‘making’ the horse perform regardless, where an amateur might not be able to?

Threads like this are always very thought provoking!

I think all of those comments apply in some cases. But thats where it’s difficult to generalise.

Also with horses (all but I’m now imagining competing) there is real skill in exposing a horse to stress and acceptance of that stress whilst training them to emotionally regulate themselves. All competition horses have to go through this to a greater or lesser degree. As do humans/children etc.

 

[misst]

This thread is fascinating. As an ex horse owner for a long time and someone who still misses seeing her daughter compete and being involved with horses generally, I have realised how much more most of us "think" about welfare actively.

I will admit if someone had said 20 years ago that the horses were stressed by riding/competing and doing stuff they would rather not do, I would have laughed them out of the yard. I would have likely called them softies or silly people and said they were extreme in their views. Slowly, slowly I am coming round to the idea that maybe, just maybe, it's time to rethink. Which leaves us with the question of what happens to all the horses who would not be ridden but still require care, feeding, etc.

Which brings us back to the question of Ugly Dressage, maybe in 20 years we will be able to look back in horror at what happened in the past, or maybe things may be more extreme. The conversation is definitely worth having though.

 

[Goldenstar]

Misst the horses would simply not exist .

 

[misst]

GS I know and how much sadder the world would be without their presence. But it is a bit like the argument for not eating beef/chicken/lamb etc at all by anyone, who would keep cows/sheep etc. We have created these beings for our pleasure and use and now abuse them. BTW I am not a vegetarian so am not preaching to anyone.
ETS it's still a conversation worth having though.

 

[Chianti]

Reading these posts though you would assume ridden, competing horses feel stress at what they're being asked to do.
Maybe they do - but is it necessarily bad and un-natural?
Horses living a natural life in the wild must feel plenty of stress - where to find available food, water, is that lion or wild dog going to eat me, how do I get across that canyon, where can I find a mate.....
Is 10 mins of stress in an arena really that awful?

The difference is that in the wild they have to undergo that stress. It's live or die and human aren't involved in the equation. And it isn't just 10 minutes in an arena it's their life. No, or very limited, turn out. Very limited interaction with their own kind. A heavy focus on schooling in an arena on a surface that is unnatural for them. Wearing tack to keep their mouths shut. Constant travelling and then stabling in an unfamiliar place. Being sold on and on as it suits their owner. Ridden with their heads behind the vertical so they can't even see where they are going. That's not the life that horses are born to live.

 

[Chianti]

Yes to engage with. I suppose I was more referring to putting horses in stressful situations. I remember YCBM once saying that if the horse showed any reluctance to be tacked up that they wouldn't be riding (YCBM, please correct me if I am wrong).

I, on the other hand, would likely still ride the horse. Of course if he was trying to bite, kick etc showing a lot of discomfort then I would investigate, but if the horse walked to the back of the stable when I appeared with the saddle then I don't think it would stop me from riding.

If this was new behaviour then wouldn't that be a red flag to you? When my pony had ulcers he started turning his head away when I tried to put his bridle on.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I actually feel guilty for a lot of the things that I did with my last horse thinking that it was "good for his education" or "how it needs to be" because I no doubt caused him a fair amount of stress that was unecessary. I definitely got a bit too ambitious at times, and was aware that my ambitions exceeded his. With his new owner, he's "stepped down" in respect to work and I think that was not a bad thing for him at all.

I am approaching things even more thoughtfully with my young horse. He's about to be 3 so the "work" is increasing. In that he's being introduced to more things in preparation for life as a ridden horse.

He always comes up to me in the field and even cantered a few strides to meet me yesterday. I don't know if he's bored or if the prospect of possibly getting a peppermint treat is enough to motivate him (he doesn't get food or a treat just for being caught though). So if he were to start avoiding me, that'd be a huge red flag.

He's generally up for whatever and willing to give anything a chance. When I had him in a bridle with a bit for the first time he wasn't sure about this metal in his mouth but when I took the bridle off (alone in the indoor school) and walked away, he came right up to me again when I called him and willingly let me put the bridle on again. That just said something to me about his character. I don't think it was a, "well, I might as well do it because she will give me no choice in the matter" it seemed to be like, "I'll give it a go again to see what it's about" so if he ever loses that outlook, I know that I have to stop and evaluate what I am doing.

He truly seems to enjoy our interactions at the moment and figuring things out. He's quite intelligent and people oriented, so part of that is just him. It's helpful knowing him since he was a yearling, I think, because I know who he is and what he came from. I am very excited for him, but I also know I need to not be too greedy or blinded by my own ambitions. It's a very tricky balance.

I also want him to express himself, but he does also have to be mannerly about things and a civilized equine of sorts. So that's another balancing act too. I want a horse to tell me they're uncomfortable with something, but not take charge or be explosive or anything. This is where picking up on subtle clues comes in, I think.

Another thing that has been hugely invaluable to me, and I've seen this with others to, is spending time on the ground with the horse. Whether it's due to rider injury, horse injury, or horses age. I've learned so much from the ground. I was just reading about someone learning a lot about their horse whilst having to long line their horse during rehab. It gave them a different perspective and visual they just didn't get from riding.

I do a lot of things that people probably think are a waste of time, such as handwalking, "trick training" and various groundwork, but if I set my horse (including my last one) loose, they are never in a rush to get away from me. They often like to watch me just as much as I watch them. So I think it also says something when your horse is just "interested" in you.

 

[sbloom]

I also wonder whether with these top athletic horses, temperament has been sacrificed for ability. I used to warm up with horses who were clearly very stressed, despite performing at the same level as my pony and in the same circumstances. Is that lack of training, or an unstable temperament, or poor handling behind the scenes?

I would say a large part is that the breeding for athleticism is harming them more fundamentally - they are unstable, and feel unsafe. It is much harder with a horse that feels vulnerable, whether injured or physically compromised through breeding or for some other reason, to help them emotionally regulate. However, the training techniques used across so much of competitive dressage ALSO put them in very vulnerable positions and in discomfort, which comes through as stress...for which they might get a boot in the ribs. It's everything - the competitive environment, the breeding, the management and the training.

 

[greenbean10]

If this was new behaviour then wouldn't that be a red flag to you? When my pony had ulcers he started turning his head away when I tried to put his bridle on.

If my horse had always been happy to be tacked up and then suddenly wouldn't let me put the saddle on then yes it would be a red flag.

But my horses do not come out the same everyday. Sometimes they are lazy, sometimes they are more forward. Sometimes they stand relaxed to be tacked up while eating hay, other times I get the feeling they are more reluctant. They do not display the exact same behaviours every single day which makes it important for me to not overthink it.

If my horse felt very stuffy in the school, I would take him for a hack that day instead. But I wouldn't overthink it as horses have good days and bad days just like us.

And just a note that I retired my horse despite spending thousands as even though the horse was clinically 'sound', I still got the feeling that he wasn't happy in his work.

 

[Time for Tea]

My YO might be about to find out, she has just bought a set of those buttons that you can programme to say “food” or “play” or “work”. She trains by +R and her horses are used to being trained to touch objects, stand on podiums etc.
It will be interesting to see what they ‘say’

And just to add (and I know this will sound woo-woo). I think my horse does enjoy work, particularly some aspects.
Some months back I was doing an in hand training session, I was happy with the session and was just finishing up when it felt to me (yes, it’s nuts) that my horse wanted to show me his new favourite move. I had had no intention of working on that move that day but it felt to me like he’d asked to have a go at it. So we did a couple, he looked very happy and I rewarded him.

Fascinating, do report back on the progress with the buttons. What would play consist of, I wonder?

I think horses do like doing things, using their brains. They learn to enjoy the interaction, as well as learn the particular movement or whatever is being asked for.

 

[blitznbobs]

I have had horses that love going on the lorry… one I remember in particular loved going to shows and when he retired he would come to the gate and lean on it when you were loading other horses… one notable day I was loading a youngster to take for literally a day out to soak up the atmosphere at a local show (entered in one in hand class but no real agenda to go in the ring) and I opened the gate he was leaning on to see what he would do. He shuffled his 18 hand frame in to the back ‘slot’ on the wagon and I shut the back partition - he came with us for the ride… he had hock arthritis and was an overgrown 26 year old field ornament - hadn’t been ridden in 2 years and hadn’t been off the yard in longer but I don’t think I was wrong in taking him … I took him for a toddle round the field at the show and let him scoff some grass I don’t think he could’ve said he wanted to go any clearer…

This same horse was offered a place on the para Olympic team a few years earlier- it was the Beijing olympics and there is no way I would be put him thru that - he was an absolute gem but I decided that would be too much for a boy in his twenties… if it had been London the answer though would probably have been yes.

 

[tristars]

Pammy Hutton said some years ago now that Mr and Mrs. Bloggs may not understand the finner points of dressage but they do know animal cruelty when they see it.

oh yes !!!!!

although i always say `what do you think of that` and often its amazing what the innocent , unbiased eye sees

 

[Goldenstar]

All my horses love going on the lorry

 

[Time for Tea]

You are correct. I have rarely tied horses up to tack them up, I tack them up in a loose box. I've never had a horse who walked away from the saddle, when it had previously never done so, which didn’t turn out to have something wrong with it.

ETA I'm beginning to seriously question the "feisty fives" and "silly sixes" years that are so common in horses, and to wonder if that’s not when they start to attempt to express discomfort or discontent, which they give up once they realise that nobody is going to listen.
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I find that last paragraph very worrying it has made me think though I do think my two young ponies are generally contented with their lives

 

[Goldenstar]

Blue has not been anywhere recently last weekend I took him to the beach.
Because Sky was minus a shoe which he has lost in the field practicing for when we get cattle he herds the other two about like cattle .
I had started the lorry when we went in with tack Bluebwas oh it’s me and was bright and excited he was sweet .
I will try to get him out more .

 

[ihatework]

All my horses love going on the lorry

So do mine, they literally run up the ramp ears pricked (well the competition ones anyway, babies obv an exception). The only times they haven't (ie its taken a few seconds to cajole them) then its been an early warning sign they had a niggle or their heart just wasn't in the job.

 

[paddy555]

Yeah, like dragging themselves out of bed early to feed and turn their horses out, detrimental to my back and sleep deprivation!
Sorry your point was lost because it was too vague.
Lots of people do things for the benefit of the horse that are not of explicit benefit to themselves.

bit lost with your last line and explicit benefit to ourselves.. Why shouldn't they? if it is their horse they have chosen to have it. There is absolutely no explicit benefit to the horse from his POV of having to jump or do dressage or whatever else his owner wants yet he has little choice but to comply.

 

[ihatework]

bit lost with your last line and explicit benefit to ourselves.. Why shouldn't they? if it is their horse they have chosen to have it. There is absolutely no explicit benefit to the horse from his POV of having to jump or do dressage or whatever else his owner wants yet he has little choice but to comply.

It was in response to ymbcs vague comment. It wasn’t a position I was taking.
I completely agree the horse has little choice in what we ask it to do and it is our choice to have them, so overall horse ownership is purely for our benefit

 

[ycbm]

My comment wasn't vague, it was a very specific response to an assertion made by another poster. The exchange went, my underline:

Other poster "Everything we do with our horses is for our own benefit!"

Me "That is not true of everyone."
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