Ugly Dressage

[Goldenstar]

well if a human wants to excel in their chosen very high level sport then they accept that to achieve their dreams they are going to have to do a lot of training some of which is going to be painful as they push their bodies in the gym, with weights, with very intense exercise etc. They will end up with injuries due to their dedication to their sport. Yes, some of that may involve uncomfortable clothing and many other things. Discomfort, pain but well worth it for their ego and the glory of winning.

Their choice.

And the horse's choice to put up with this sort of thing to achieve the rider's goal is??

the horse has no such goal. His aims are food, water, his mates,

I find it impossible to look at some of these dressage horses with their tack and not to feel they are suffering discomfort for their rider's aims. Does he really understand our human reasoning. Probably not, he certainly doesn't have a choice.

If we end up with injuries due to our dedication to our sport that is a risk we chose to take.

I suppose it is if you view the horse as your property to do what you want with and get another if it gets broken. That's OK for me with my bike or my car. Just not with an animal.

I do view my horse as mine it is my responsibility to make sure their lives are good .
Its also my responsibility to end their lives when the time comes .
I understand that some people think horses should not be ridden I don’t think that I don’t think that in this world they get enough exercise in most circumstances to meet their needs without humans providing exercise .
My horses like being worked they have a fun time they love going out for hacking two love training and learning stuff one does not he likes hunting so that’s what he does .
I don’t like hacking it is boring but I do it because its clearly good for and enjoyed by the horses .
I could go on about everything thing I do and how I come to the choice I take .
They are my horses and I have to make the choices for them it’s my responsibility.

I have never used the fact I wear a bra play a role in any decision .

 

[eahotson]

I do view my horse as mine it is my responsibility to make sure their lives are good .
Its also my responsibility to end their lives when the time comes .
I understand that some people think horses should not be ridden I don’t think that I don’t think that in this world they get enough exercise in most circumstances to meet their needs without humans providing exercise .
My horses like being worked they have a fun time they love going out for hacking two love training and learning stuff one does not he likes hunting so that’s what he does .
I don’t like hacking it is boring but I do it because its clearly good for and enjoyed by the horses .
I could go on about everything thing I do and how I come to the choice I take .
They are my horses and I have to make the choices for them it’s my responsibility.

I have never used the fact I wear a bra play a role in any decision .

I think horses can enjoy work if it is within their capacity,they are treated kindly.They can also enjoy human company and at a show,while they might not understand they have won a class for instance,they can sense their humans pleasure.That is fair use.Some of it though plainly slides into abuse.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think horses can enjoy work if it is within their capacity,they are treated kindly.They can also enjoy human company and at a show,while they might not understand they have won a class for instance,they can sense their humans pleasure.That is fair use.Some of it though plainly slides into abuse.

Abuse happens of course it does .
Theres lots of different issues involved in keeping horses one of the biggest is keeping horses without enough space for them to have their needs met .

 

[eahotson]

Abuse happens of course it does .
Theres lots of different issues involved in keeping horses one of the biggest is keeping horses without enough space for them to have their needs met .

I agree Another might be people who struggle to pay vets fees so don't call them out when they should.

 

[Goldenstar]

There’s a list so long of problems but we are all tied up with a dozen top dressage horses when we should be focused as much closer to home .

 

[paddy555]

I do view my horse as mine it is my responsibility to make sure their lives are good .
Its also my responsibility to end their lives when the time comes .
I understand that some people think horses should not be ridden I don’t think that I don’t think that in this world they get enough exercise in most circumstances to meet their needs without humans providing exercise .
My horses like being worked they have a fun time they love going out for hacking two love training and learning stuff one does not he likes hunting so that’s what he does .
I don’t like hacking it is boring but I do it because its clearly good for and enjoyed by the horses .
I could go on about everything thing I do and how I come to the choice I take .
They are my horses and I have to make the choices for them it’s my responsibility.

I have never used the fact I wear a bra play a role in any decision .

I'm not sure that many would have a problem with this level of care and activity. I don't think they should not be ridden, I don't think they shouldn't be trained. I have had a lot of clever arabs who have delighted in being trained and doing various things. Several of them totally enjoyed sheep, pony and cow gathering. It gave them a chance for their brains to excel. It would have been a shame to deny them this. My concerns are that the bar is now getting too high and horses are getting stressed and hurt for their rider's ambitions.

There’s a list so long of problems but we are all tied up with a dozen top dressage horses when we should be focused as much closer to home .

but it is not the top dozen or so that started with thread. There are a lot more being competed at too high a level (not just dressage) A lot more wannabees who see top riders and then copy them.
The goal posts are too high. AA wrote a very good post about 3 pages earlier about this.

We need to step down a few notches not work on the basis that one horse can achieve a particular level so all the others must move up to that degree of difficulty to satisfy their competitive riders.

 

[paddy555]

Land or Air Travel for Horses: How Stressful Is It? - Kentucky Equine Research

Despite appearing to be calm throughout the flight, the horses indicated by their elevated heart rates that they felt a higher level of stress than when they were resting in stalls.

ker.com

Small number but a good start. All travel caused raised heart levels, plane travel worse. In an animal programmed for flight, the raised heart beat is preparatory to flight, to feed the muscles more oxygen, and if the horse then cannot flee I think we can safely assume that's going to be stressful.

Together with climate charge, I find the idea of flying horses anywhere to compete and come home again pretty indefensible.
.

good heavens! who on earth would have guessed that they would be stressed.

 

[Goldenstar]

Stress is normal for horses they are easily startled herbivores

 

[ycbm]

Stress is normal for horses they are easily startled herbivores

Stress for a whole day while you travel across the world by air shaken around in an aluminium tube in a crate you can't turn round or lie down in, sometimes bumped about quite violently, is not.

And just for a competition?
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[stormox]

Stress for a whole day while you travel across the world by air shaken around in an aluminium tube in a crate you can't turn round or lie down in, sometimes bumped about quite violently, is not.

And just for a competition?
.

What about horses travelling by lorry and ferry from other countries? Ireland is pretty much a 24 hour journey.
We will have to increase our breeding to ensure there are enough horses in UK without importing them...

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses in the form they are today exist because we use them .
My Irish Draught is no different to a Grand Prix in this respect .

 

[sbloom]

What about horses travelling by lorry and ferry from other countries? Ireland is pretty much a 24 hour journey.
We will have to increase our breeding to ensure there are enough horses in UK without importing them...

I'm not sure that travelling as a one-off for importation is the same as the several times a year for most of the top competition horses. There is nuance in this conversation, but if we don't act on the more extreme issues (ie the extreme VERSION of each issue perhaps) then the chances increase that we'll eventually be banned from doing any of it.

 

[ihatework]

Stress in horses is something I think about and ponder quite a lot especially when I’m on the edge of my rabbit hole.

I haven’t got the answers and neither does anyone on here. It would be a so much easier if horses could talk.

But I’ve come to the conclusion it’s pretty horse dependent. And that is made up from their early years and human interactions - have they been given the toolkits by us to positively deal with stress? And a big chunk is their genetic make up.

I come to this from a POV of acceptance that horses are here to ‘serve’ humans. Sounds awful but they generally are at a variety of different levels.

They will experience stress frequently. FACT. From a whole heap of different sources. Humans can try and help/manage/mitigate but it will always be there.

I’ve got a purpose bred horse that can/could easily tip into a negative stress.
It’s a very difficult balancing act - he is not a pet, he is a busy workaholic. He absolutely adores xc - the joy on his face is amazing.
To do the xc he has to do dressage & sj, he does not have the same affinity for that! In fact at one point I was worried about his stress levels in the sj and it played on my mind. But with the correct exposure, time and patient I’m moving more from the red zone into solid amber and hopeful of green!
I’m now more anxious about the dressage. I would love to say it’s a joy to watch. It’s not. But it’s a balancing act and one where the balance is always shifting.

That applies to all horses but for competition horses especially it’s very difficult to make clear cut judgement calls from afar (other than obvious abuse!)

 

[greenbean10]

Horses in the form they are today exist because we use them .
My Irish Draught is no different to a Grand Prix in this respect

I totally agree with this. If anything I find the Grand Prix horses more defendable because it is the rider's job, so of course the horse is going to be thought of as an asset that is there to do a job.

My horse doesn't really like travelling, do I still take him to shows even though he finds going in the lorry stressful? Yes of course.

Another of my horses doesn't like hacking alone, do I still make the effort to hack alone once a week even though the horse hates it? Yes!

Everything we do with our horses is for our own benefit! I don't know why poeple are acting as though they are better than the dressage riders because their horse 'enjoys' hacking.

And before anyone comes at me - my horses life out 24/7 year-round. I minimise stress as much as possible, but would I keep my horse in at night if I needed it to be sharper for competitions? Yes I would.

 

[ycbm]

I totally agree with this. If anything I find the Grand Prix horses more defendable because it is the rider's job, so of course the horse is going to be thought of as an asset that is there to do a job.

What right do humans have to treat a sentient being as a tool for a job?

My horse doesn't really like travelling, do I still take him to shows even though he finds going in the lorry stressful? Yes of course.

Another of my horses doesn't like hacking alone, do I still make the effort to hack alone once a week even though the horse hates it? Yes!

After an almost continuous 43 years of multiple horse owning, with what I know now about how horses hide what they feel, physically and mentally, I could not now do this, though I would once have written exactly the same.
.

Everything we do with our horses is for our own benefit!

That is not true of everyone.


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[Goldenstar]

I think it’s not a given that my horses stress hormones are any lower turned out in pouring rain in howling gale than a horses on a plane .

 

[ycbm]

I think it’s not a given that my horses stress hormones are any lower turned out in pouring rain in howling gale than a horses on a plane .

If you think that then why do you leave them out in a howling gale and pouring rain when you have stables for them to go in?
.

 

[Goldenstar]

Because on balance they are better out moving ,eating less and getting cold
Simple as that .

 

[greenbean10]

What right do humans have to treat a sentient being as a tool for a job?



After an almost continuous 43 years of multiple horse owning, with what I know now about how horses hide what they feel, physically and mentally, I could not now do this, though I would love have written exactly the same.
.



That is not true of everyone.


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I believe that we don't really have a right, but it is the reality and most of us here are horse owners and regularly put our horses in stressful situations for our own benefit.

I am aware from reading your previous posts that you are one of the few who doesn't, and I fully respect that.

I do my best to give my horses the very best lives I can. But I am fully aware that in most cases me riding them / taking them to shows etc is for my benefit instead of theirs. They would much rather be stood in the field as they are for the rest of the day! I am not in denial of that. I give them happy lives for 23 hours of the day. The one hour of the day that I choose to ride them may not be exactly what they would have chosen, but I accept that and do the best I can the rest of the time.

 

[ihatework]

I believe that we don't really have a right, but it is the reality and most of us here are horse owners and regularly put our horses in stressful situations for our own benefit.

I am aware from reading your previous posts that you are one of the few who doesn't, and I fully respect that.

I do my best to give my horses the very best lives I can. But I am fully aware that in most cases me riding them / taking them to shows etc is for my benefit instead of theirs. They would much rather be stood in the field as they are for the rest of the day! I am not in denial of that. I give them happy lives for 23 hours of the day. The one hour of the day that I choose to ride them may not be exactly what they would have chosen, but I accept that and do the best I can the rest of the time.

We all have or engage with horses for our own benefit I’d argue, no exceptions, not even ycbm

 

[greenbean10]

We all have or engage horses for our own benefit I’d argue, no exceptions, not even ycbm

Yes to engage with. I suppose I was more referring to putting horses in stressful situations. I remember YCBM once saying that if the horse showed any reluctance to be tacked up that they wouldn't be riding (YCBM, please correct me if I am wrong).

I, on the other hand, would likely still ride the horse. Of course if he was trying to bite, kick etc showing a lot of discomfort then I would investigate, but if the horse walked to the back of the stable when I appeared with the saddle then I don't think it would stop me from riding.

 

[Goldenstar]

Of course we keep horses for ourselves.
We need to fully accept this as the reality.
Then learn how to discharge the responsibility that comes with that
That’s a personal journey of learning that never stops you never stop learning with horses.
That includes your horses having to accept stuff they don’t like and in cases causes stress like wearing muzzles as an example.

 

[coblets]

I'm not sure that travelling as a one-off for importation is the same as the several times a year for most of the top competition horses. There is nuance in this conversation, but if we don't act on the more extreme issues (ie the extreme VERSION of each issue perhaps) then the chances increase that we'll eventually be banned from doing any of it.

The difference being that a top competition horse who regularly travels probably finds it far less stressful than a baby horse doing a one-off trip who’s never travelled any real distance before. One has had the chance to habituate.

You never hear about competition horses getting sarcoids from the stress of coming over but that’s perfectly common for young horses from Ireland.

 

[Abacus]

I'm not sure that travelling as a one-off for importation is the same as the several times a year for most of the top competition horses. There is nuance in this conversation, but if we don't act on the more extreme issues (ie the extreme VERSION of each issue perhaps) then the chances increase that we'll eventually be banned from doing any of it.

Arguably competition horses probably do get used to it and their stress levels might be lower per flight than a horse being imported that has never done a similar journey.

The research quoted above doesn’t state whether they used competition horses (regular travellers) or others. Also, oddly, they measured stress during the flight after the trailer ride (albeit with a break between) - not a proper comparison of the two.

Of course this isn’t the point of this thread - although it does show how much we need rigorous research to determine stress levels as a result of what we ask horses to do, as their actual state of mind isn’t always apparent from external signs (which the article does point out).

 

[Goldenstar]

The difference being that a top competition horse who regularly travels probably finds it far less stressful than a baby horse doing a one-off trip who’s never travelled any real distance before. One has had the chance to habituate.

You never hear about competition horses getting sarcoids from the stress of coming over but that’s perfectly common for young horses from Ireland.

Very good post and very true about the sarcoids

 

[humblepie]

When I get my horse in from the field to go off competing I do always think I’m sure he’d far rather stay at home. As a balance to that I don’t travel if it’s hot, I don’t take him to venues I think he’ll struggle with mentally and I long ago decided that if a horse needed a calmer before competing his management or career should be changed.

 

[Goldenstar]

We must not think that we can’t learn about horses welfare with scientific invention from needles and blood screening.
There are loads of ways to assess horses well being on a day to day basis you can train yourself to watch and monitor each horse .
They give you clues all the time.

 

[Goldenstar]

I meant without scientific intervention I can’t edit atm

 

[sbloom]

We must not think that we can’t learn about horses welfare with scientific invention from needles and blood screening.
There are loads of ways to assess horses well being on a day to day basis you can train yourself to watch and monitor each horse .
They give you clues all the time.

Don't disagree at all and yet...we have the pain ethogram and there are horses showing obvious pain symptoms in top level competition everywhere. And yes, habituation is going to help of course, but many horses have just learned to put up and shut up through "habituation"/desensitisation, though I'm not up on the latest data that shows correlation with actual medical measurements, just pondering.

 

[stormox]

The difference being that a top competition horse who regularly travels probably finds it far less stressful than a baby horse doing a one-off trip who’s never travelled any real distance before. One has had the chance to habituate.

You never hear about competition horses getting sarcoids from the stress of coming over but that’s perfectly common for young horses from Ireland.

I don't think horses get sarcoids from stress. They more than likely have them before they travel.
A lot of competition horses get colic from stress though.