Vitamin E supplements recommendations

[criso]

It was never 1/10 of the strength though.

Gravenhorse listed an E500 product that supplied 5000iu in 10g. We still have screenshots.

Nutjob highlighted that FP said their 25% 250mg/ kg product supplies 500iu and they claim 2000iu in 4g.

So initially both agreed on the amount supplied per gram.

After challenging Gravenhorse revised this to a 250mg/kg product that supplies E350iu

I'm going to quote Gravenhorse from earlier where there is some detail on the conversion from mg to iu

With regard to product strength, the feed industry has traditionally used the International Units system for vitamin concentrations. However it is now moving to use mg/kg or grams/tonne (means the same). In the course of e-mail & phone conversations earlier today with fellow nutrionists at both my suppliers, confusion arose between the 2 systems. 1 mg of natural rrr alpha tocopherol acetate is the same as 1.49 i.u of vitamin E . As the supplied product contains 25% pure Vit E oil, this equates to 375,000 i.u./kg. I have rounded it down to 350,000.

PE may have confused the 2 and equated mg with iu.and may be underestimating as they seem to be suggesting 250mg/g = 250iu

FWIW I suspect they're all the same product, the difference is not what is being sold but how the availability is being interpreted.

 

[criso]

I have seen that, this means that there is 75% of something else in the product which they don't mention.

Silica both natural and synthetic use it.

 

[paddy555]

Did you feed the FP at their recommended dosage or calculate based on the amount they say it supplies per scoop/gram?

Just that there is the discrepancy I mentioned upthread between how much active vitamin e FP say it supplies and PE despite appearing to be the same compound. If FP are the ones that are wrong, you could have been feeding half of what you thought.

This doesn't apply if you fed the recommended number of scoops as they both say the same.

Just to add, don't think anyone is deliberately misleading, just a misprint somewhere.

I e mailed FP last night to ask for further info. so that I can understand this. Haven't heard back yet but I will post the answer when I do. I haven't contacted PE as yet as I doubt anyone would understate the IU on their product.

Whilst it would provide an obvious answer to my poor results with Rupert and nat. vit e powder I really cannot believe it could be the case however we shall see shortly (hopefully)

 

[Tiddlypom]

FP are standing by their stated iu per 5 ml scoop. Their response was friendly, but I can't quote them as my dialogue with them was on one of those ruddy on line chat threads which has now vanished.

They are additionally currently working on a new vit E product with more bio availability. That's all that I know about it.

 

[ycbm]

It was never 1/10 of the strength though.

Gravenhorse listed an E500 product that supplied 5000iu in 10g. We still have screenshots.

After challenging Gravenhorse revised this to a 250mg/kg product that supplies E350iu

I'm going to quote Gravenhorse from earlier where there is some detail on the conversion from mg to iu

I have an email stating that the 500 iu product listed was actually 50 iu.

The higher strength product now listed is a completely new offering, that is absolutely clear from the email.

Gravenhorse were selling a product which was only one tenth of the advertised strength, and it was this thread which caused them to discover that.
.

 

[criso]

I e mailed FP last night to ask for further info. so that I can understand this. Haven't heard back yet but I will post the answer when I do. I haven't contacted PE as yet as I doubt anyone would understate the IU on their product

I doubt it's a deliberate under or overstatement on anyone's part so PE could be wrong.

As far as I can see, Gravenhorse, FP and PE are now all selling the 25% 250mg/kg natural vitamin e. They all agree on 250mg/25%

It's how that translates to IU that they diverge.

FP claim that 250mg supplies 500iu per gram do 2x
GH state x1.49 so 375iu
PE have 250iu so are working on a 1:1 conversion.

I did find this to convert but it's based on humans.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/V...onvert from mg to,0.67 mg of alpha-tocopherol.

• convert from mg to IU:1 mg of alpha-tocopherol is equivalent to 1.49 IU of the natural form or 2.22 IU of the synthetic form.
• To convert from IU to mg:1 IU of the natural form is equivalent to 0.67 mg of alpha-tocopherol.1 IU of the synthetic form is equivalent to 0.45 mg of alpha-tocopherol.

 

[quizzie]

I did find this to convert but it's based on humans.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminE-HealthProfessional/#:~:text=International Units and Milligrams&text=To convert from mg to,0.67 mg of alpha-tocopherol.

• convert from mg to IU:1 mg of alpha-tocopherol is equivalent to 1.49 IU of the natural form or 2.22 IU of the synthetic form.
• To convert from IU to mg:1 IU of the natural form is equivalent to 0.67 mg of alpha-tocopherol.1 IU of the synthetic form is equivalent to 0.45 mg of alpha-tocopherol.

....and those numbers change when you have the acetate molecule attached too!

 

[paddy555]

re FP/PE vit E differences.

this is my reply from FP. I haven't had the chance to read it in detail yet but here it is in case anyone would like to work their way through it.
I hope it comes out OK on the post


Thank you for your message regarding our natural vitamin E.



Forageplus “Natural Vitamin E” contains 25% by weight of RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate which is the acetate ester of natural vitamin E. This will provide 250mg of RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate per gram. At Forageplus we use a conversion factor 2.0 IU per milligram so 250mg is equal to 500IU. If you would like to know why we use a conversion factor of 2.0 read below:



The standard conversion between milligrams and IU for natural vitamin E is 1 mg of alpha-tocopherol is equivalent to 1.49 IU of the natural form see link below from the NIH:







Looking at this you may think that 250mg is therefore equivalent to 250 x 1.49 = 372.5IU, however this conversion factor relates to the free phenolic form of RRR-alpha tocopherol rather than the acetate. Biologically the acetate ester is converted to the free phenol enzymatically once absorbed in-vivo so this means we have to look at the pharmacokinetics of the acetate rather than the free phenol form to get a more representative milligram to IU conversion.



A publication by Finno and Valberg in 2012 (J Vet Intern Med 2012;26:1251–1266) titled “A Comparative Review of Vitamin E and Associated Equine Disorders” included a comparison of various forms of alpha-tocopherol supplementation and relative potency (IU/mg), see table below:







RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate is identified in the red box and two values for the conversion from IU to milligram are given. The first value, 1.36, is referenced from a 1988 study carried out in rats and humans published in the journal Lipids. The second value , 2.0, is from a more contemporary study carried out in humans in 1994 and published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.



Horses are neither rats or humans and although there is wealth of information studying vitamin E in horses we cannot find a simple conversion between the type of Vitamin E supplemented in milligrams to IU specifically for horses. We do have data on the type of vitamin E supplemented and bioavailability in micrograms per millilitre of plasma, see below, but this cannot be related to a definitive IU conversion factor.





To summarise Forageplus has used a conversion factor of 2.0 based on the more contemporary 1994 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and referenced by Finno and Valberg.



Based on bulk density a 5mL scoop of Forageplus natural vitamin E contains around 4 grams (or 4000mg) of product and this contains 25% by weight of RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate which is 1000mg, using the conversion factor of 2.0 this equals 2000IU and is why our label states “1 x 5mL scoop contains approximately 2000iu”



We cannot comment on the dosage or activity of Progressive Earth’s product but I hope you now have a better understanding of the feed rate and composition of our own product.









Kind Regards



Dr Lee Proctor
PhD BSc CChem MRSC


Technical Manager | Forageplus Ltd




01352 757777

enquiries@forageplus.com

www.forageplus.com

10 Broncoed Business Park, Wrexham Road, Mold, CH7 1HP

 

[criso]

Horses are neither rats or humans and although there is wealth of information studying vitamin E in horses we cannot find a simple conversion between the type of Vitamin E supplemented in milligrams to IU specifically for horses. We do have data on the type of vitamin E supplemented and bioavailability in micrograms per millilitre of plasma, see below, but this cannot be related to a definitive IU conversion factor.

So there's no definitive conversion but I've worked out what each is doing.

Two studies on the acetate form that are 1.36 1988 rats and humans or 2 1998 humans.

FP are taking the most recent but neither are particularly recent and none on horses. So they are using 2 to convert.

GH look to be taking the free phenolic form not adjusting for acetate so you can see where the 1.49 comes from.

Progressive Earth look to be using the more conservative 1.36 as if you use that and take into account they have a scoop at 3.25 not 4, it works out at 1105iu which is what they claim.

I suppose you'd want to look in more detail at the two studies before favouring one. If the fact the earlier study included rats accounts for the difference then we can't say how this would translate to a 3rd species.

 

[ycbm]

re FP/PE vit E differences.

this is my reply from FP. I haven't had the chance to read it in detail yet but here it is in case anyone would like to work their way through it.
I hope it comes out OK on the post


Thank you for your message regarding our natural vitamin E.



Forageplus “Natural Vitamin E” contains 25% by weight of RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate which is the acetate ester of natural vitamin E. This will provide 250mg of RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate per gram. At Forageplus we use a conversion factor 2.0 IU per milligram so 250mg is equal to 500IU. If you would like to know why we use a conversion factor of 2.0 read below:



The standard conversion between milligrams and IU for natural vitamin E is 1 mg of alpha-tocopherol is equivalent to 1.49 IU of the natural form see link below from the NIH:



View attachment 105837



Looking at this you may think that 250mg is therefore equivalent to 250 x 1.49 = 372.5IU, however this conversion factor relates to the free phenolic form of RRR-alpha tocopherol rather than the acetate. Biologically the acetate ester is converted to the free phenol enzymatically once absorbed in-vivo so this means we have to look at the pharmacokinetics of the acetate rather than the free phenol form to get a more representative milligram to IU conversion.



A publication by Finno and Valberg in 2012 (J Vet Intern Med 2012;26:1251–1266) titled “A Comparative Review of Vitamin E and Associated Equine Disorders” included a comparison of various forms of alpha-tocopherol supplementation and relative potency (IU/mg), see table below:



View attachment 105835View attachment 105842



RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate is identified in the red box and two values for the conversion from IU to milligram are given. The first value, 1.36, is referenced from a 1988 study carried out in rats and humans published in the journal Lipids. The second value , 2.0, is from a more contemporary study carried out in humans in 1994 and published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.



Horses are neither rats or humans and although there is wealth of information studying vitamin E in horses we cannot find a simple conversion between the type of Vitamin E supplemented in milligrams to IU specifically for horses. We do have data on the type of vitamin E supplemented and bioavailability in micrograms per millilitre of plasma, see below, but this cannot be related to a definitive IU conversion factor.



View attachment 105841

To summarise Forageplus has used a conversion factor of 2.0 based on the more contemporary 1994 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and referenced by Finno and Valberg.



Based on bulk density a 5mL scoop of Forageplus natural vitamin E contains around 4 grams (or 4000mg) of product and this contains 25% by weight of RRR-alpha tocopherol acetate which is 1000mg, using the conversion factor of 2.0 this equals 2000IU and is why our label states “1 x 5mL scoop contains approximately 2000iu”



We cannot comment on the dosage or activity of Progressive Earth’s product but I hope you now have a better understanding of the feed rate and composition of our own product.









Kind Regards



Dr Lee Proctor
PhD BSc CChem MRSC


Technical Manager | Forageplus Ltd



View attachment 105839
01352 757777
View attachment 105840
enquiries@forageplus.com
View attachment 105836
www.forageplus.com
View attachment 105838
10 Broncoed Business Park, Wrexham Road, Mold, CH7 1HP

And that is why I trust FP, to answer your earlier question Paddy. They know what they are talking about.
.

 

[ycbm]

So there's no definitive conversion but I've worked out what each is doing.

Two studies on the acetate form that are 1.36 1988 rats and humans or 2 1998 humans.

FP are taking the most recent but neither are particularly recent and none on horses. So they are using 2 to convert.

GH look to be taking the free phenolic form not adjusting for acetate so you can see where the 1.49 comes from.

Progressive Earth look to be using the more conservative 1.36 as if you use that and take into account they have a scoop at 3.25 not 4, it works out at 1105iu which is what they claim.

I suppose you'd want to look in more detail at the two studies before favouring one. If the fact the earlier study included rats accounts for the difference then we can't say how this would translate to a 3rd species.

So FP and PE are the same product and we should buy the cheaper, basically, or stay loyal to a supplier who's never put a foot wrong, maybe, if it's not a huge difference.
.

 

[paddy555]

So FP and PE are the same product and we should buy the cheaper, basically, or stay loyal to a supplier who's never put a foot wrong, maybe, if it's not a huge difference.
.

clearly you have more money than I have. The difference is £8 for the same size bag. If you think it's worthwhile paying £8 a bag for loyalty up to you. I wouldn't pay £8 over the odds for a 30 quid product but still

now I think we have worked out we are looking at the same product just a very different price it will be up to each person if they want to save money. It will also, more importantly be up to each person to consider the different IU calculations of the same product ie basically one is quoted as having half of the other depending on interpretation.

And that is why I trust FP, to answer your earlier question Paddy. They know what they are talking about.
.

as I now understand the situation then I'm afraid that our opinions on that may differ as well.

 

[ycbm]

As well as trust and loyalty, there is postage to take into consideration, bulk buy and loyalty deals, adding a product to the order that PE don't sell, and personal history with supply of a product that was potentially very harmful and not openly described, with an offer off 10% of the next order as compensation which was then worthless when I came to use it as every customer was given a 10%discount at the time I came to reorder.

ETA
Still waiting for you to acknowledge that the people you criticised on this forum were responsible for identifying that a product which is absolutely critical to the health of PSSM and vitamin E myopathy horses was being sold at one tenth the advertised strength.
.

 

[criso]

So FP and PE are the same product and we should buy the cheaper, basically, or stay loyal to a supplier who's never put a foot wrong, maybe, if it's not a huge difference.
.

Fwiw if you are buying enough to qualify for free postage from fp the difference in price is less than buying small amounts. I buy the PE combined copper, zinc, selenium pro trace 3 so I'm more likely to buy from them.

 

[paddy555]

So there's no definitive conversion but I've worked out what each is doing.

Two studies on the acetate form that are 1.36 1988 rats and humans or 2 1998 humans.

FP are taking the most recent but neither are particularly recent and none on horses. So they are using 2 to convert.

GH look to be taking the free phenolic form not adjusting for acetate so you can see where the 1.49 comes from.

Progressive Earth look to be using the more conservative 1.36 as if you use that and take into account they have a scoop at 3.25 not 4, it works out at 1105iu which is what they claim.

I suppose you'd want to look in more detail at the two studies before favouring one. If the fact the earlier study included rats accounts for the difference then we can't say how this would translate to a 3rd species.

I also worked it out the same. At least now I finally understand why I have had so many problems with all my horses on the FP one based on 2000iu per 5ml scoop whereas PE think it is half of that (approx) Based on 2000iu I have been underdosing all my normal horses and poor Rupert who has struggled so badly with vit e deficiency has been seriously under dosed based on 2000iu per 5ml scoop. In fact he had to move to Nano E as the FP powder was not enough. No wonder based on the fact I could have been only giving him a half dose.

We are basing the IU rates on either rats and humans or just humans. Either could be relevant to horses or neither. Based on knowing Rupert inside out and his reaction to the lack of vit E to my mind ( and before anyone rubbishes it that is my own opinion) the PE interpretation appears to be far closer to the mark.

I didn't understand how FP and PE differ on their scoops. Both are 5ml. FP get 4 g on it and PE only 3.25.
I did this exercise and a level scoop was 3g. So I think PE again are nearer the mark on this. Of course that also affects the IU given.

As well as trust and loyalty, there is postage to take into consideration, bulk buy and loyalty deals, adding a product to the order that PE don't sell, and personal history with supply of a product that was potentially very harmful and not openly described, with an offer off 10% of the next order as compensation which was then worthless when I came to use it as every customer was given a 10%discount at the time I came to reorder.

ETA
Still waiting for you to acknowledge that the people you criticised on this forum were responsible for identifying that a product which is absolutely critical to the health of PSSM and vitamin E myopathy horses was being sold at one tenth the advertised strength.
.

as I don't buy anything else from FP postage does come into it

your final para was very timely, I am very very grateful to some of those on here. You are totally correct that the vit E product chosen is absolutely critical to the health of the vit E myopathy horse. I have realised with a big jolt in the last day that you are totally correct on this. However the product you have identified for me is not the Graven horse one but the FP one. I have been supplementing my normal horses at around half the amount I intended to. Rupert with Vit E myopathy also only got around half the amount he needed and became ill. I trusted the FP product, now I understand how they had chosen the figure in their interpretation which makes their product look good, the weight of the scoop differs a fair bit with both my and PE''s measures and the price is considerably more.

 

[bouncing_ball]

At this point are we thinking what Gravenhorse, FP and PE sell as natural vitamin E are all same thing at same specification? and logic says buy the cheapest if don’t have a high risk horse? Which will be Gravenhorse.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Btw Forageplus, while in no way criticising PE, did say that their natural vit E powder as sold is not the same product as PE's.

 

[ycbm]

At this point are we thinking what Gravenhorse, FP and PE sell as natural vitamin E are all same thing at same specification? and logic says buy the cheapest if don’t have a high risk horse? Which will be Gravenhorse.

I will not reward (buy from) suppliers like Equimins and now Gravenhorse who have recently been proved to list a product which is fundamental to the health of horse who needs it so inaccurately that it could seriously affect the horse k or even cause it to be PTS)?

I am amazed at the lack of concern expressed on this thread about a product which was one tenth strength of what was advertised.

Others can obviously make their own choice.
.

 

[criso]

I actually ordered the gravenhorse one early on. I got an email saying they couldn't get it but could supply a 250mg/g product before any mistake was flagged on here It looks to be the natural acetate version but will confirm when it arrives.

No one has been sent anything at 1/10 of the strength and given the discussions we've now had about different ways of working out availability, what I'm getting would be 500iu on FPs way of calculating.


It's even cheaper and in the future as they are local, I'll be able to avoid postage altogether. I decided to take a chance and ordered before checking after talking to a few people and they have a very good reputation locally.

 

[criso]

Btw Forageplus, while in no way criticising PE, did say that their natural vit E powder as sold is not the same product as PE's.

That's possible but from a calculation pov, tbe PE recommendations exactly fit taking 1.36 on a 3.25g scoop so that seems to be where their figures come from.

 

[paddy555]

Btw Forageplus, while in no way criticising PE, did say that their natural vit E powder as sold is not the same product as PE's.

I can't find that bit. I found this bit at the end which doesn't say it is or isn't.

We cannot comment on the dosage or activity of Progressive Earth’s product but I hope you now have a better understanding of the feed rate and composition of our own product.

 

[ycbm]

No one has been sent anything at 1/10 of the strength

I don't know how you know this C? No-one on this thread, but surely we don't know who else has ordered and been supplied it?

 

[criso]

I don't know how you know this C? No-one on this thread, but surely we don't know who else has ordered and been supplied it?

I probably phrased that badly. I should have said we don't know that anyone has ordered the e500 and been sent the e50.

The places that hold stock only have the low grade e50 which is clearly labelled as such so the higher purity doesn't seem to be widely available.

They listed a e500 product on their own site but we don't know if anyone bought it. They are a bit obscure and haven't come up as a suggestion before not just here but on other social media.

Most people who don't take an interest would order the cheap stuff and anyone who knows more and looking for high purity would be able to tell the difference between the powder on its own and the powder diluted with limestone flour at a ratio of 9:1.

As soon as i ordered it turned out they couldn't get it and offered me an alternative but not 1/10 of the strength. They didn't just send it out

We'll see what turns up, it will save on product and postage if it is the 25% 250mg/kg that forageplus sell.

And I'll probably take an average of the studies in terms of dosage.

 

[bouncing_ball]

And I'll probably take an average of the studies in terms of dosage.

Doing that with Gravenhorse vitamin E, how much does 10gms provide in iU? Less than 2,500iU I guess?

Thanks

 

[criso]

Doing that with Gravenhorse vitamin E, how much does 10gms provide in iU? Less than 2,500iU I guess?

Thanks

More i think. Its 250mg/g or 25% of active vitamin e. . However the studies say 1.36 or 2 to convert mg to iu.

Gravenhorse 3750iu in 10g (they use 1.49 and estimate 375000/kg)
FP 5000 iu in 10g
PE 3400iu in 10g

If you take an average of the 2 studies you get to 1.68.

So 4220 in 10mg

Further complicated by FP saying a scoop is 4g, PE 3.25 and when Paddy555 tried weighing a scoop it was 3.

 

[SpotsandBays]

I probably phrased that badly. I should have said we don't know that anyone has ordered the e500 and been sent the e50.

The places that hold stock only have the low grade e50 which is clearly labelled as such so the higher purity doesn't seem to be widely available.

They listed a e500 product on their own site but we don't know if anyone bought it. They are a bit obscure and haven't come up as a suggestion before not just here but on other social media.

Most people who don't take an interest would order the cheap stuff and anyone who knows more and looking for high purity would be able to tell the difference between the powder on its own and the powder diluted with limestone flour at a ratio of 9:1.

As soon as i ordered it turned out they couldn't get it and offered me an alternative but not 1/10 of the strength. They didn't just send it out

We'll see what turns up, it will save on product and postage if it is the 25% 250mg/kg that forageplus sell.

And I'll probably take an average of the studies in terms of dosage.

just out of interest, did the product arrive? What was the verdict?

 

[planete]

I am now thoroughly confused, plus the natural vitamin E from FP is not available right now. So, if I buy from PE, how much should I give to equate two scoops of FP please?

 

[Gravenhorse]

It was never 1/10 of the strength though.

Gravenhorse listed an E500 product that supplied 5000iu in 10g. We still have screenshots.

Nutjob highlighted that FP said their 25% 250mg/ kg product supplies 500iu and they claim 2000iu in 4g.

So initially both agreed on the amount supplied per gram.

After challenging Gravenhorse revised this to a 250mg/kg product that supplies E350iu

I'm going to quote Gravenhorse from earlier where there is some detail on the conversion from mg to iu




PE may have confused the 2 and equated mg with iu.and may be underestimating as they seem to be suggesting 250mg/g = 250iu

FWIW I suspect they're all the same product, the difference is not what is being sold but how the availability is being interpreted.

just out of interest, did the product arrive? What was the verdict?

just out of interest, did the product arrive? What was the verdict?

There is indeed a global shortage of pure natural d-Alpha-tocopherol. Mixtures with other isomers - e.g. gamma - are available, but not approved for use in animal feeds. I am currently negotiating with a European manufacturer for d-A-T acetate @ 500,000iu/kg For ease of use this would probably be diluted to 200,000iu/kg to retail at about £35/kg + carriage. If sufficient interest is shown I will order a trial batch of 20kg for a test run.
The alternative is to use synthetic dl-A-T at about 3 x the rate for natural E which I can obtain & supply.

 

[criso]

just out of interest, did the product arrive? What was the verdict?

In the end they couldn't get the natural vit e so made up some with the pure oil to required concentration to fulfil my order. It's not listed as an option to buy yet. Problem with suppliers getting it from manufacturer apparently.

Very interesting that Forageplus is out of stock too. Might there be an issue generally?

Might be worth anyone who has a horse for whom it's critical get some from wherever they can.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Sorry confused, been trying to read all the comments to understand. I feee vitamin E to help with my mares liver.

I currently feed FP, and give one scoop a day which I thought correlated to 2,000IU vitamin E (natural) is that correct?

Is PE, the same feed amount?