Vitamin E supplements recommendations

[criso]

I know Sarah Braithwaite personally, and there is no-one who is more committed to horse health than she is. I believe she was the first person to identify the iron/copper issue in horses with UK grazing, and I believe it is almost entirely due to her that more horses are not still suffering from iron overload

Which comes back to what I was saying about not just paying for the ingredients but all the associated costs. In this case research can be added to the list.

I'll buy it because for me it's actually identified that a local seller who I already knew of, is selling something I need, never occurred to me they'd be a good source of vitamin e. I'll probably look at picking up some at local events over the summer.

Plus I'm only doing normal supplementation and I was buying synthetic from PE and adjusting the dose, so less critical.

 

[catembi]

Does anyone know how long vitamin E takes to get into or out of the system? Thor has been off it since NYD as the horses got into the tack room and tipped out my supplements. He has just now been very spooky in the school... Big spook and shot off at pretty much nothing, then very edgy and looky instead of settling.

No other changes to management. He was unrideably spooky on triaminos a couple of months ago and chilled out once off them. He has been solid as a rock ever since and I trusted him again!

Could it really make this much difference or is it coincidence? FWIW he was on two of the scoops that came with the Progressive Earth, twice a day. I did work out what that was in iu but I have forgotten.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I noticed adverse effects in my PSSM mare inside of 48 hours the one time that I ran out of vit E. But didn't they scoff a variety of food when they broke into the feed shed? That could make any horse uncomfortable/grouchy/grumpy.

 

[lynz88]

It takes a few months for me to notice effects in mine but he isn't PSSM (though he is EPM so high vit e is recommended in general).

 

[ycbm]

Update.

I have received an email and we were correct to doubt whether natural vitamin E could be supplied at that price. It couldn't. The advert is wrong and the strength of the more expensive stuff is only 50,000 iu per kilo, there was an error of a decimal point in the listing.

@paddy555
@criso
@visa_bot
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[nutjob]

I have received an email and we were correct to doubt whether natural vitamin E could be supplied at that price. It couldn't. The advert is wrong and the strength of the more expensive stuff is only 50,000 iu per kilo, there was an error of a decimal point in the listing.

Thanks for looking into it and updating us. The website was amateurish and had other confusing / incorrect information which makes you doubt something that seems too good to be true. Now we know it wasn't true.

 

[ycbm]

I'm afraid it's time that all suppliers realise that vitamin E for a PSSM horse or one with a vitamin E myopathy can be a life and death issue, and take more care.
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[Tiddlypom]

Thanks for clarifying that, ycbm.

It did seem too good a price to be true, and it was. Hopefully the listing on the website has already been corrected.

 

[Fieldlife]

Update.

I have received an email and we were correct to doubt whether natural vitamin E could be supplied at that price. It couldn't. The advert is wrong and the strength of the more expensive stuff is only 50,000 iu per kilo, there was an error of a decimal point in the listing.

@paddy555
@criso
@visa_bot
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I have been offered by email 250,000 iU/kg for 19.50 / kg by Gravenhorse today.

 

[ycbm]

I have been offered by email 250,000 iU/kg for 19.50 / kg by Gravenhorse today.

So have I, but I would not now buy from a company which has got something so important for my horse's health so carelessly wrong.
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[criso]

Update.

I have received an email and we were correct to doubt whether natural vitamin E could be supplied at that price. It couldn't. The advert is wrong and the strength of the more expensive stuff is only 50,000 iu per kilo, there was an error of a decimal point in the listing.

@paddy555
@criso
@visa_bot
.

I got an email saying he could no longer get the 500 kiu but he could get 250 kiu and would give me extra as it was less concentrated. Assured me it's natural and will include instructions on how much to feed to deliver 2500iu. I'll then do the maths on how much it works out at per day and in theory compare to PE and FP except their labeling contradicts each other so that's not reliable either.

As he's local, in the future I can order it in through Titmuss and save on postage if it's cost effective.

 

[ycbm]

I got an email saying he could no longer get the 500 kiu

My email didn't say he could no longer get it, it said that it was never anything but 50 kiu and the listing was a complete error.

ETA the first wouldn't worry me, the second does.
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[criso]

My email didn't say he could no longer get it, it said that it was never anything but 50 kiu and the listing was a complete error.

ETA the first wouldn't worry me, the second does.
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Given you were told to hold off as he had to order it in, it probably never was in stock, we were the first to ask and the mistake was spotted when he went to order it in.

At least the error was spotted before any went out. As I had already ordered, I'm getting extra of the 250 (I had the option to cancel) so I'm going to do ok out of it and if I can get it postage free in the future it may well compare well once I work out cost per day.

 

[ycbm]

Given you were told to hold off as he had to order it in, it probably never was in stock, we were the first to ask and the mistake was spotted when he went to order it in.

At least the error was spotted before any went out. As I had already ordered, I'm getting extra of the 250 (I had the option to cancel) so I'm going to do ok out of it and if I can get it postage free in the future it may well compare well once I work out cost per day.

I don't think it was newly listed, I think this is something they have been supplying at only 1/10 the advertised strength for some time. It was out of stock when I queried, but the information given was that it was what was bought to include in their coarse mix and they were awaiting a delivery.

How can it now be trusted that the current description is correct?
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[Gravenhorse]

I have been using the Forageplus Natural vitamin E, but wondered if there was an equivalent product potentially available more cheaply elsewhere, especially in larger quantities - never hurts to ask when it comes to horsey stuff.

Can anyone recommend another one they've used?

Gravenhorse Feeds will have available from 12th Jan PURE NATURAL VITAMIN E IN 2 STRENGTHS: 350,000 & 50.000 i.u./kg
From the website :
Horseheath Natural Vitamin E with NO Selenium (as this is toxic if fed to excess) -
Natural form rrr alpha-tocopherol acetate –is 4 times more effective than the synthetic dl-alpha-tocopherol Pagan J et. al. 1996 trial at Kentucky Equine Research Center
It is essential for many metabolic processes involved in reproduction, growth & energy metabolism etc. etc. It is a mixture of pure vitamin E diluted with silica gel.
To order click http://www.gravenhorse.co.uk/SuppliesOlR5.html#txt_84
Gravenhorse Feeds is run by a Cambridge Univerity-trained nutritionist, who also provides free advice via https://horseheathequinenutrition.com/ See http://www.gravenhorse.co.uk/about for background information

 

[ycbm]

Gravenhorse Feeds will have available from 12th Jan PURE NATURAL VITAMIN E IN 2 STRENGTHS: 350,000 & 50.000 i.u./kg
From the website :
Horseheath Natural Vitamin E with NO Selenium (as this is toxic if fed to excess) -
Natural form rrr alpha-tocopherol acetate –is 4 times more effective than the synthetic dl-alpha-tocopherol Pagan J et. al. 1996 trial at Kentucky Equine Research Center
It is essential for many metabolic processes involved in reproduction, growth & energy metabolism etc. etc. It is a mixture of pure vitamin E diluted with silica gel.
To order click http://www.gravenhorse.co.uk/SuppliesOlR5.html#txt_84
Gravenhorse Feeds is run by a Cambridge Univerity-trained nutritionist, who also provides free advice via https://horseheathequinenutrition.com/ See http://www.gravenhorse.co.uk/about for background information

You told me 250,000 in an email this morning. Is it now 350,000?

I would advise you to stop quoting that 1996 study. I can't get hold of it to read it, but every other supplier of vitamin E accepts that natural is twice as bio available to a horse as synthetic.
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[Gravenhorse]

You told me 250,000 in an email this morning. Is it now 350,000?

I would advise you to stop quoting that 1996 study. I can't get hold of it to read it, but every other supplier of vitamin E accepts that natural is twice as bio available to a horse as synthetic.
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You told me 250,000 in an email this morning. Is it now 350,000?

I would advise you to stop quoting that 1996 study. I can't get hold of it to read it, but every other supplier of vitamin E accepts that natural is twice as bio available to a horse as synthetic.
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Jo Pagan is the President & Founder of KER https://ker.com/about-us/staff/ I found his paper online some years ago when researching vitamin E, but like you, can no longer find it. However, I downloaded a copy to my private files & would be happy to send it to you. I'm unsure as to the copyright position so won't publish it here. Please use the contact page on my website to request a copy.
With regard to product strength, the feed industry has traditionally used the International Units system for vitamin concentrations. However it is now moving to use mg/kg or grams/tonne (means the same). In the course of e-mail & phone conversations earlier today with fellow nutrionists at both my suppliers, confusion arose between the 2 systems. 1 mg of natural rrr alpha tocopherol acetate is the same as 1.49 i.u of vitamin E . As the supplied product contains 25% pure Vit E oil, this equates to 375,000 i.u./kg. I have rounded it down to 350,000.
With regard to efficacy relative to synthetic E I think that data is being quoted from human & rodent trials which showed it to be x2 more effective. I trust this clarifies the subject!

 

[criso]

I don't think it was newly listed, I think this is something they have been supplying at only 1/10 the advertised strength for some time. It was out of stock when I queried, but the information given was that it was what was bought to include in their coarse mix and they were awaiting a delivery.

How can it now be trusted that the current description is correct?
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You trust PE and FP despite their packaging contradicting each other. They claim to have exactly the same compound in the natural, both 250kiu but different availability per gram. That's never been clarified. One of the reasons I moved to the synthetic and doubled up was I wasn't sure who was right and at least they agreed on the synthetic.

What is it about vitamin e that is generating these errors?

 

[ycbm]

You trust PE and FP despite their packaging contradicting each other.

I trust FP, I have never bought anything from PE except magnesium oxide and that turned out to be over-priced calmag with a stone in it which could have broken a tooth if I hadn't seen it.

It isn't relevant to this though, why would I trust a company which has proven to be untrustworthy to a degree which could prove fatal to a vitamin E dependent horse?

 

[Gravenhorse]

Jo Pagan is the President & Founder of KER https://ker.com/about-us/staff/ I found his paper online some years ago when researching vitamin E, but like you, can no longer find it. However, I downloaded a copy to my private files & would be happy to send it to you. I'm unsure as to the copyright position so won't publish it here. Please use the contact page on my website to request a copy.
With regard to product strength, the feed industry has traditionally used the International Units system for vitamin concentrations. However it is now moving to use mg/kg or grams/tonne (means the same). In the course of e-mail & phone conversations earlier today with fellow nutrionists at both my suppliers, confusion arose between the 2 systems. 1 mg of natural rrr alpha tocopherol acetate is the same as 1.49 i.u of vitamin E . As the supplied product contains 25% pure Vit E oil, this equates to 375,000 i.u./kg. I have rounded it down to 350,000.
With regard to efficacy relative to synthetic E I think that data is being quoted from human & rodent trials which showed it to be x2 more effective. I trust this clarifies the subject!

I have just found in my files an article referring to : Finno, C.J., and S.J. Valberg. 2012. A comparative review of vitamin E and associated equine disorders. J. Vet. Intern. Med. 26:1251-1266. in which serum concentrations of vitamin E were found to be x2 higher with natural Vitamin E . As we are considering live animals & plant-sourced materials, there will always be some deviation in practice, from the average data, so I will amend my website to read between 2- 4 times more effective, & quote the references.

 

[ycbm]

I have just found in my files an article referring to : Finno, C.J., and S.J. Valberg. 2012. A comparative review of vitamin E and associated equine disorders. J. Vet. Intern. Med. 26:1251-1266. in which serum concentrations of vitamin E were found to be x2 higher with natural Vitamin E . As we are considering live animals & plant-sourced materials, there will always be some deviation in practice, from the average data, so I will amend my website to read between 2- 4 times more effective, & quote the references.

Just make it 2. We all understand why it's 2 because of the left and right handed molecules.
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[criso]

I trust FP, I have never bought anything from PE except magnesium oxide and that turned out to be over-priced calmag with a stone in it which could have broken a tooth if I hadn't seen it.

It isn't relevant to this though, why would I trust a company which has proven to be untrustworthy to a degree which could prove fatal to a vitamin E dependent horse?

It's relevant to the thread title of recommendations for vitamin e. As I said I've been buying synthetic and adjusting the dose as at least they agreed on what I was getting, I wasn't sure who was right so didn't buy natural from either.

I've bought Bioplex copper, Zinc, Lysine, phosphorus, natural and synthetic vitamin e and magox from both. (Though you have to buy the high purity magox from PE not the low which is probably the calmag you bought). All claimed to be the same compound, smelt the same and looked identical to the naked eye and in the absence of getting each analysed can't say they are not the same.

I don't think either FP or PE would deliberately mislead but someone has made a mistake. If it's FP, you're feeding half of what you think you're feeding, if it's PE who are wrong you're feeding twice as much if you buy theirs - are there overdose issues?

If you ignore the IU, both agree on dosage of 1 x 5ml scoop for maintenance, 2 for performance etc. It's just the claimed IU delivered in this scoop that's different. Which makes me think there's a misprint somewhere in the IU per scoop. It makes no difference for most people who would feed the amount of scoops suggested, but does to those on here who calculate. iIf t was the synthetic that differed, I'd think one was adjusting for bioavailability but they agree on that.

 

[UKa]

When my late old mare needed vit E I used to buy it from Equimins.
Gravenhorse are very experienced in nutrition. I used to get my supplements delivered from them when I needed lots of stuff . The website is not reflecting on quality of merchant.

 

[Gravenhorse]

I have created a page on the Horseheath Equine Nnutrition Website with a brief summary of the properties of the various forms of Vitamin E see https://wordpress.com/page/horseheathequinenutrition.com/1752

 

[Gravenhorse]

there is a link to click on on their site so no doubt you could have queried their product there. There are 3 phone numbers you could ring them, they are in Beds if you read further. They have a nutritionalist ie John Champman whose history is detailed. Both Graven and Horseheath have plenty of info on their sites re nutrition, just as much as many similar ventures. You can use paypal so it if doesn't turn up you can get your money back.

I have no idea if their vit E is good or not or if their price is reasonable. Perhaps other outlets are over charging for theirs, I have no idea. However I think it would be reasonable for people to find out accurate info before discrediting a business on here with having the facts.

(I have no connection to either graven or HH, I have never used either)

Thankyou for some common sense. Re product quality - Gravenhorse buys its Vitamin E from the UK branch of Cargill, who inturn get it from Archer Daniels Midland Inc who supply it as Nano-E in various parts of the world.

 

[ycbm]

Thankyou for some common sense. Re product quality - Gravenhorse buys its Vitamin E from the UK branch of Cargill, who inturn get it from Archer Daniels Midland Inc who supply it as Nano-E in various parts of the world.

For the sake of clarification for others who may be reading this thread.

The base vitamin E from which Nano-E is made may be the same powder, but that powder is not sold by anyone as Nano-E. Nano-E, is a very different product, a liquid not a powder, engineered and proven to increase bioavailability.

https://ker.com/antioxidants/nano-e/

 

[Gravenhorse]

For the sake of clarification for others who may be reading this thread.

The base vitamin E from which Nano-E is made may be the same powder, but that powder is not sold by anyone as Nano-E. Nano-E, is a very different product, a liquid not a powder, engineered and proven to increase bioavailability.

https://ker.com/antioxidants/nano-e/

Pure natural vitamin E is an oil, supplied by a number of firms specialing in equine nutrition, including Saracen, who sell it as Nano-E. The Archer Daniels Midland product is sold overseas as Nova-E™ see https://www.admanimalnutrition.com/webcenter/content/conn/WCC1/uuid/dDocName:wctrprd_004969 This is the product Gravenhorse supplies, not Nano-E as earlier stated, after it has been blended with silica gel to act as a carrier & facilitate ease of use & handling. The author is unaware of any significant differences in efficacy betwee the 2 products. Identifying them would probably require an expensive trial. so is unlikely to happen.

 

[quizzie]

Pure natural vitamin E is an oil, supplied by a number of firms specialing in equine nutrition, including Saracen, who sell it as Nano-E. The Archer Daniels Midland product is sold overseas as Nova-E™ see https://www.admanimalnutrition.com/webcenter/content/conn/WCC1/uuid/dDocName:wctrprd_004969 This is the product Gravenhorse supplies, after it has been blended with silica gel to act as a carrier & facilitate ease of use & handling. The author is unaware of any significant differences in efficacy betwee the 2 products. Identifying them would probably require an expensive trial. so is unlikely to happen.

NO......Please get your facts right before posting misinformation as fact....

Nova E is d alpha tocopherol acetate.

Nano E is water-miscellised d alpha tocopherol...there is no acetate molecule attached.....this is crucial to it's absorption/utilization in some horses.

There IS a very significant difference in their efficacy in susceptible horses, this has been well documented.

 

[paddy555]

I think we are all getting a bit lost here. As I understand it there are 3 forms of vit E. (leaving aside natural or synthetic) A powder of which Nova E appears to be one, FP's product is another. There is a good description on the FP site as to how this powder is produced if anyone is interested.

Then an oil. ie a pourable liquid which is the product that equimins supplied. I think there is an Omega make some others and bulk horse in Germany produce one. This has a base of linseed oil with vit E then added. It looks like your kitchen cooking oil

Thirdly there is Nano E. This is sold in the UK on behalf of Ker by Saracen and one other outlet where I found it a little cheaper. Nano is a water soluble liquid vit E. It does not look like a oil, in fact it looks a bit like Baileys

I have tried all 3 products so can comment on the efficacy of each on my own horses. The least effective is the powder. I have only tried the natural FP powder (not the synthetic) it may be OK for a normal horse but I have found it poor for both a vit e deficient horse and my "normal" horses.

The equimins oil which was determined to be synthetic I found to be far better than the natural powder. 10,000iu of that oil on a vit E def. horse produced the same effects as Nano in the same space of time.

Then Nano, very expensive but one which I have been forced to buy for my VEDM horse as I am no longer able to obtain the equimins one.

 

[ycbm]

Pure natural vitamin E is an oil, supplied by a number of firms specialing in equine nutrition, including Saracen, who sell it as Nano-E. The Archer Daniels Midland product is sold overseas as Nova-E™ see https://www.admanimalnutrition.com/webcenter/content/conn/WCC1/uuid/dDocName:wctrprd_004969 This is the product Gravenhorse supplies, not Nano-E as earlier stated, after it has been blended with silica gel to act as a carrier & facilitate ease of use & handling. The author is unaware of any significant differences in efficacy betwee the 2 products. Identifying them would probably require an expensive trial. so is unlikely to happen.

Nano-E is NOT the same as the vitamin E used to make the powder you sell. Its efficacy has been tested and published

For PSSM horses who are severely affected by the disease, the information you are giving can be the difference between life and death. Accuracy on the part of the supplier is essential.

There was a possibility a while back that I might have trusted Gravenhorse with my next order. That possibility has gone because of the way you have posted on this thread.


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