Vitamin E supplements recommendations

[quizzie]

I think we are all getting a bit lost here. As I understand it there are 3 forms of vit E. (leaving aside natural or synthetic) A powder of which Nova E appears to be one, FP's product is another. There is a good description on the FP site as to how this powder is produced if anyone is interested.

Then an oil. ie a pourable liquid which is the product that equimins supplied. I think there is an Omega make some others and bulk horse in Germany produce one. This has a base of linseed oil with vit E then added. It looks like your kitchen cooking oil

Thirdly there is Nano E. This is sold in the UK on behalf of Ker by Saracen and one other outlet where I found it a little cheaper. Nano is a water soluble liquid vit E. It does not look like a oil, in fact it looks a bit like Baileys

I have tried all 3 products so can comment on the efficacy of each on my own horses. The least effective is the powder. I have only tried the natural FP powder (not the synthetic) it may be OK for a normal horse but I have found it poor for both a vit e deficient horse and my "normal" horses.

The equimins oil which was determined to be synthetic I found to be far better than the natural powder. 10,000iu of that oil on a vit E def. horse produced the same effects as Nano in the same space of time.

Then Nano, very expensive but one which I have been forced to buy for my VEDM horse as I am no longer able to obtain the equimins one.

You are absolutely correct that there are 3 forms of vitamin E for supplementation in terms of their chemical composition, which is then also presented in 3 different forms!

So....

1 : dl alpha tocopherol acetate.....Synthetic vitamin E, can be presented as an oil or a powder.

2 : d alpha tocopherol actetate.....Natural vitamin E, can be presented as on oil, but more usually a powder for ease of use

3 : d alpha tocopherol.....Natural vitamin E, presented as a white liquid in a water miscellised form. (nano-E)

 

[paddy555]

Pure natural vitamin E is an oil, supplied by a number of firms specialing in equine nutrition, including Saracen, who sell it as Nano-E. The Archer Daniels Midland product is sold overseas as Nova-E™ see https://www.admanimalnutrition.com/webcenter/content/conn/WCC1/uuid/dDocName:wctrprd_004969 This is the product Gravenhorse supplies, not Nano-E as earlier stated, after it has been blended with silica gel to act as a carrier & facilitate ease of use & handling. The author is unaware of any significant differences in efficacy betwee the 2 products. Identifying them would probably require an expensive trial. so is unlikely to happen.

your 2nd para describes how Nova E is made. Below is how Nano E is made and there is a HUGE difference in efficacy. There is also a huge difference in price

Delivering Vitamin E Efficiently (per KER)
Fat-soluble vitamins like vitamin E must be offered
to horses in such a way that maximizes absorption. Because it is not mixed with other ingredients, the vitamin E in Nano-E does not need to be protected by esterification, but it must become water-soluble or dispersible in liquid. This presents a challenge: As everyone knows,
oil and water don’t mix.
Researchers developed a method by which fat-soluble vitamins can be absorbed with great efficiency. Because
of its oily nature, vitamin E is hydrophobic (water- shunning). To overcome this, researchers use proprietary technology to encapsulate the vitamin E in nanoparticles and then surround each nanoparticle with a hydrophilic (water-loving) outer layer. The hydrophilic outer layer, as illustrated in Figure 2, allows the nanoparticles to be rapidly and evenly released in water-based environments such as the gastrointestinal tract. The differences in bioavailability among vitamin E sources are shown in Figure 3.
The greatest benefit of this unique delivery system is
an increase in the bioavailability of vitamin E. The more vitamin E that is absorbed into the bloodstream, the more available it is for use as a body-wide antioxidant essential for tissue repair and for its imperative roles in various body systems.

 

[quizzie]

This is a useful link for anyone wanting more information ....if you scroll down, the different types and efficacies are detailed ( It also mentions an alcohol version, but I am not aware of any commercial products of this!)

https://cvm.msu.edu/research/facult...g-laboratory/selecting-a-vitamin-e-supplement

 

[Dexter]

I think we are all getting a bit lost here. As I understand it there are 3 forms of vit E. (leaving aside natural or synthetic) A powder of which Nova E appears to be one, FP's product is another. There is a good description on the FP site as to how this powder is produced if anyone is interested.

Then an oil. ie a pourable liquid which is the product that equimins supplied. I think there is an Omega make some others and bulk horse in Germany produce one. This has a base of linseed oil with vit E then added. It looks like your kitchen cooking oil

Thirdly there is Nano E. This is sold in the UK on behalf of Ker by Saracen and one other outlet where I found it a little cheaper. Nano is a water soluble liquid vit E. It does not look like a oil, in fact it looks a bit like Baileys

I have tried all 3 products so can comment on the efficacy of each on my own horses. The least effective is the powder. I have only tried the natural FP powder (not the synthetic) it may be OK for a normal horse but I have found it poor for both a vit e deficient horse and my "normal" horses.

The equimins oil which was determined to be synthetic I found to be far better than the natural powder. 10,000iu of that oil on a vit E def. horse produced the same effects as Nano in the same space of time.

Then Nano, very expensive but one which I have been forced to buy for my VEDM horse as I am no longer able to obtain the equimins one.

That isn't how science works. it is fact that natural vitamin e is more effective than synthetic. The actual form makes no difference, with the exception of Nano E which is manufactured differently and is more effective. You would need twice the amount of the equimins compared to FP. Unless FP is misselling which I would think is unlikely given past history.

 

[quizzie]

That isn't how science works. it is fact that natural vitamin e is more effective than synthetic. The actual form makes no difference, with the exception of Nano E which is manufactured differently and is more effective. You would need twice the amount of the equimins compared to FP. Unless FP is misselling which I would think is unlikely given past history.

It is possible that the difference paddy555 noticed could be down to an individual horse digesting and absorbing an oil based supplement better than a powdered one, thus producing a clinical result which does not reflect the expected pattern? Horses often like to throw curve balls I find!!!

 

[paddy555]

That isn't how science works. it is fact that natural vitamin e is more effective than synthetic. The actual form makes no difference, with the exception of Nano E which is manufactured differently and is more effective. You would need twice the amount of the equimins compared to FP. Unless FP is misselling which I would think is unlikely given past history.

are you basing your comments on reading or the real world. It might not be how science works but it is certainly how it worked in my horses. I am afraid that it was VERY obvious from the one with deficiency problems. I changed from equimins oil (synthetic) to FP powder.

I had used the oil for about 4 years and it had completely changed him within days he remained that way whilst on the oil. I had to move to the natural powder and all his problems started to reappear. Come Nano we had a change back again and he went back to state he had been on with the oil.

I can't help what you have read, I can only report what actually happened.

 

[criso]

I have tried all 3 products so can comment on the efficacy of each on my own horses. The least effective is the powder. I have only tried the natural FP powder (not the synthetic) it may be OK for a normal horse but I have found it poor for both a vit e deficient horse and my "normal" horses

Did you feed the FP at their recommended dosage or calculate based on the amount they say it supplies per scoop/gram?

Just that there is the discrepancy I mentioned upthread between how much active vitamin e FP say it supplies and PE despite appearing to be the same compound. If FP are the ones that are wrong, you could have been feeding half of what you thought.

This doesn't apply if you fed the recommended number of scoops as they both say the same.

Just to add, don't think anyone is deliberately misleading, just a misprint somewhere.

 

[paddy555]

Did you feed the FP at their recommended dosage or calculate based on the amount they say it supplies per scoop/gram?

Just that there is the discrepancy I mentioned upthread between how much active vitamin e FP say it supplies and PE despite appearing to be the same compound. If FP are the ones that are wrong, you could have been feeding half of what you thought.

This doesn't apply if you fed the recommended number of scoops as they both say the same.

Just to add, don't think anyone is deliberately misleading, just a misprint somewhere.

I measured it on this basis (although obviously a lot more than 2000iu)
I hope I haven't been feeding half

1 x 5 ml scoop = approx 2000 iu = 4 grams.

 

[paddy555]

It is possible that the difference paddy555 noticed could be down to an individual horse digesting and absorbing an oil based supplement better than a powdered one, thus producing a clinical result which does not reflect the expected pattern? Horses often like to throw curve balls I find!!!

they certainly do throw curve balls.
I would suggest to anyone with a possibly vit E def. horse (or even considering PSSM) and who is experimenting that they bear this in mind and just because the powder (most people's first choice because that is what is usually suggested) doesn't produce a result they try a different medium before dismissing the idea.



I also read about the alcohol version but couldn't make it out or find one.

 

[criso]

I measured it on this basis (although obviously a lot more than 2000iu)
I hope I haven't been feeding half

1 x 5 ml scoop = approx 2000 iu = 4 grams.

Same product from progressive earth i.e natural vit e 250,000mg/kg

1 x 5 ml scoop supplies approx. 3.25 g of product (1,105 IU of Natural Vitamin E).

Suggested intake:

Maintenance: 1 x 5ml scoop per day.

Performance: 2 to 3 x 5ml scoops per day.

Both suggest 1 scoop for maintenance up to 3 for performance.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I keep meaning to contact both Pro Earth and FP to ask them to clarify their natural vit E dosage rates.

If the carrier in PE is less bulky and dense than that of FP, then both companies' dose rates as calculated by volume (ml) of product could be correct.

I know that I have to feed 20ml of FP's natural vit E per day to keep my PSSM mare's symptoms at bay. I've tried dropping the dose down to save pennies, but she made it clear that she wasn't happy.

 

[Gravenhorse]

Nano-E is NOT the same as the vitamin E used to make the powder you sell. Its efficacy has been tested and published

For PSSM horses who are severely affected by the disease, the information you are giving can be the difference between life and death. Accuracy on the part of the supplier is essential.

There was a possibility a while back that I might have trusted Gravenhorse with my next order. That possibility has gone because of the way you have posted on this thread.


.

I stand corrected! I did a google search earlier which hadn't revealed anything useful. On further examination of my files I find that Pagan et. al. found water-dispersable forms of natural E to be x 5-6 more effective than synthetic, which in turn suggests they could be 2-3 times more effective than the natural acetate

 

[Gravenhorse]

your 2nd para describes how Nova E is made. Below is how Nano E is made and there is a HUGE difference in efficacy. There is also a huge difference in price

Delivering Vitamin E Efficiently (per KER)
Fat-soluble vitamins like vitamin E must be offered
to horses in such a way that maximizes absorption. Because it is not mixed with other ingredients, the vitamin E in Nano-E does not need to be protected by esterification, but it must become water-soluble or dispersible in liquid. This presents a challenge: As everyone knows,
oil and water don’t mix.
Researchers developed a method by which fat-soluble vitamins can be absorbed with great efficiency. Because
of its oily nature, vitamin E is hydrophobic (water- shunning). To overcome this, researchers use proprietary technology to encapsulate the vitamin E in nanoparticles and then surround each nanoparticle with a hydrophilic (water-loving) outer layer. The hydrophilic outer layer, as illustrated in Figure 2, allows the nanoparticles to be rapidly and evenly released in water-based environments such as the gastrointestinal tract. The differences in bioavailability among vitamin E sources are shown in Figure 3.
The greatest benefit of this unique delivery system is
an increase in the bioavailability of vitamin E. The more vitamin E that is absorbed into the bloodstream, the more available it is for use as a body-wide antioxidant essential for tissue repair and for its imperative roles in various body systems.

That is a most helpful clarification.

 

[ycbm]

I stand corrected! It would be helpful if you could provide a link to the relevant trials. I did a google search earlier which hadn't revealed anything useful.

I suggest you contact KER and ask them for the underlying data that they used to produce the bar chart in the information which I pointed to above.
.

 

[criso]

I keep meaning to contact both Pro Earth and FP to ask them to clarify their natural vit E dosage rates.

If the carrier in PE is less bulky and dense than that of FP, then both companies' dose rates as calculated by volume (ml) of product could be correct.

I know that I have to feed 20ml of FP's natural vit E per day to keep my PSSM mare's symptoms at bay. I've tried dropping the dose down to save pennies, but she made it clear that she wasn't happy.

Be interesting if someone did.

If a different carrier accounted for the difference per scoop, then there is a variance in the recommended dose for maintenance as both agree one scoop.

They agree on the synthetic version and other minerals so it seems odd that this is the exception.

I've jumped between both as a special offer and postage can make FP cheaper at times and they don’t look or feel different to the naked eye though that's not scientific or reliable. I've fed the recommended amount for maintenance but on a non vulnerable horse.

However it could explain why Paddy555 didn't see any benefits with this version if the estimated amount per scoop was off.

 

[nutjob]

If a different carrier accounted for the difference per scoop, then there is a variance in the recommended dose for maintenance as both agree one scoop.

Unfortunately, this doesn't account for it. FP quote their product as having 500iu/g and a 5ml scoop gives 2000iu, so they assume 4g = 5ml. PE state that a 5 ml = 3.25g, so some difference in density and I cannot find out what it is mixed with. This, they say provides 1105iu which is 340iu/g. PE state that one scoop = 1105iu is sufficient for maintenance whereas FP say that 2000iu is the maintenance requirement.

 

[paddy555]

Pure natural vitamin E is an oil, supplied by a number of firms specialing in equine nutrition, including Saracen, who sell it as Nano-E. The Archer Daniels Midland product is sold overseas as Nova-E™ see https://www.admanimalnutrition.com/webcenter/content/conn/WCC1/uuid/dDocName:wctrprd_004969 This is the product Gravenhorse supplies, not Nano-E as earlier stated, after it has been blended with silica gel to act as a carrier & facilitate ease of use & handling. The author is unaware of any significant differences in efficacy betwee the 2 products. Identifying them would probably require an expensive trial. so is unlikely to happen.

is this were 4 times comes from?

we all understand that it is said natural e is twice as potent as synthetic.

you referred to 4 times in your sales description

I don't think there is any dispute that Ker Nano E is at least 4 times more potent than synthetic (I think 6 is claimed but let's stick to 4)

so above you are saying that Gravenhorse supply Nova E

you are unaware of any significant difference in efficacy between the 2 products ie Nano E and Nova E

so therefore if Nano E is 4 times more potent than synthetic then so would Nova E be

that may be a complete balls up of a conclusion and if that is the case then I apologise profusely in advance.

 

[criso]

Unfortunately, this doesn't account for it. FP quote their product as having 500iu/g and a 5ml scoop gives 2000iu, so they assume 4g = 5ml. PE state that a 5 ml = 3.25g, so some difference in density and I cannot find out what it is mixed with. This, they say provides 1105iu which is 340iu/g. PE state that one scoop = 1105iu is sufficient for maintenance whereas FP say that 2000iu is the maintenance requirement.

Forageplus If you zoom in to the packaging it says 25% or 250mg/g (which they say is equivalent to 500iu)

Progressive Earth says 250,000mg/kg so the same active compound in the same concentration.There is nothing to suggest that it is diluted with another ingredient and no other ingredients listed. Where carriers are used in their other products, they are listed

They don't disagree with the dose needed for performance or maintenance with the synthetic product so I don't think this is a difference of opinion on what the daily requirements are.


I think someone has made an error in calculation or mistyped or misread the specifications.

 

[paddy555]

Paddy you never accepted that Equimins did anything much wrong in supplying synthetic as natural, so I'm not sure I value your opinion about how we have discussed this product. The business will probably have gained massively from being brought to people's attention, as they sell far more than vitamin E and no other product has an identical looking version that is easy to mistake (as Equimins did) which is only half as effective and that 50% error is absolutely critical to PSSM horses.
.

I didn't see this earlier, I accepted without any doubt that equimins sold a product that turned out to be synthetic rather than natural. I accepted that was a mistake. I didn't see any need to crucify them.
However I didn't have a problem with that because of the results I was getting from their product. That was what actually mattered to me.

Having moved onto FP natural I found that a similar iu dose of natural was producing, well very little. I increased it and still insufficient. So the useless synthetic equimins oil was producing better results than the natural powder. So I had to move to Nano E. That wasn't a cheap experience but it was successful and at least it told me without doubt that Rupert most definitely had a vit E deficiency problem, that equimins oil had dealt with that and the powder simply hadn't.
Perhaps Rupert is a chap who just prefers oil or the milky form of Nano E.

Then, having just read through this thread properly I find it suggested that I had poor results with FP natural powder because I may in fact only be feeding it as a half dose so a total waste of money.

It doesn't bother me too much if you don't value my opinion. The only opinion I care much about is Rupert's and the equimins fiasco/shenanigans has financially cost me dearly and him in that he moved from a product that solved his problem to a natural one that didn't.

 

[ycbm]

I didn't see this earlier, I accepted without any doubt that equimins sold a product that turned out to be synthetic rather than natural. I accepted that was a mistake. I didn't see any need to crucify them.
However I didn't have a problem with that because of the results I was getting from their product. That was what actually mattered to me.

Having moved onto FP natural I found that a similar iu dose of natural was producing, well very little. I increased it and still insufficient. So the useless synthetic equimins oil was producing better results than the natural powder. So I had to move to Nano E. That wasn't a cheap experience but it was successful and at least it told me without doubt that Rupert most definitely had a vit E deficiency problem, that equimins oil had dealt with that and the powder simply hadn't.
Perhaps Rupert is a chap who just prefers oil or the milky form of Nano E.

Then, having just read through this thread properly I find it suggested that I had poor results with FP natural powder because I may in fact only be feeding it as a half dose so a total waste of money.

It doesn't bother me too much if you don't value my opinion. The only opinion I care much about is Rupert's and the equimins fiasco/shenanigans has financially cost me dearly and him in that he moved from a product that solved his problem to a natural one that didn't.

The post you are answering here was written in response to you attacking me for trying to get to the bottom of why Gravehorse vitamin E was so cheap.

Instead of this diatribe, you should be apologising to me for that attack and thanking me for sorting out a situation where a supplier was delivering a product which many horses are dependant on at one tenth the strength which they were advertising.
.

 

[paddy555]

You trust PE and FP despite their packaging contradicting each other. They claim to have exactly the same compound in the natural, both 250kiu but different availability per gram. That's never been clarified. One of the reasons I moved to the synthetic and doubled up was I wasn't sure who was right and at least they agreed on the synthetic.

I trust FP, I have never bought anything from PE except magnesium oxide and that turned out to be over-priced calmag with a stone in it which could have broken a tooth if I hadn't seen it.

It isn't relevant to this though, why would I trust a company which has proven to be untrustworthy to a degree which could prove fatal to a vitamin E dependent horse?

Criso, thanks for bringing this discrepancy to my attention. I hadn't looked at the PE site for vit e so I didn't get this. I just relied on their label to be correct.

YCBM as you use FP can you explain the point Criso has made please? ie why does PE think there are just over 1000iu in a 5ml scoop yet FP think there are 2000iu of what appears to be an identical product

 

[ycbm]

YCBM as you use FP can you explain the point Criso has made please? ie why does PE think there are just over 1000iu in a 5ml scoop yet FP think there are 2000iu of what appears to be an identical product

I suggest you write to the companies if you want an explanation.
.

 

[paddy555]

The post you are answering here was written in response to you attacking me for trying to get to the bottom of why Gravehorse vitamin E was so cheap.

Instead of this diatribe, you should be apologising to me for that attack and thanking me for sorting out a situation where a supplier was delivering a product which many horses are dependant on at one tenth the strength which they were advertising.
.

I was replying to your comments about equimins.

I suggest you write to the companies if you want an explanation.
.

you are quick to have a go at Gravenhorse and equimins yet a FP product that you trust and somewhere say you will continue to use you as you trust it are unable to tell me if there is 2000iu per scoop or perhaps only half that quantity? Stupid question but how do you know what dose you are feeding?

 

[ycbm]

Are you going to acknowledge that this thread did well in stopping a company from supplying a product at one tenth the advertised strength, Paddy? You were happy to criticise us for questioning the unbelievable price.
.

 

[Dexter]

are you basing your comments on reading or the real world. It might not be how science works but it is certainly how it worked in my horses. I am afraid that it was VERY obvious from the one with deficiency problems. I changed from equimins oil (synthetic) to FP powder.

I had used the oil for about 4 years and it had completely changed him within days he remained that way whilst on the oil. I had to move to the natural powder and all his problems started to reappear. Come Nano we had a change back again and he went back to state he had been on with the oil.

I can't help what you have read, I can only report what actually happened.

Its how you think it worked. You had no control, no testing. This is based on your observation which is very biased towards an oil based product.

 

[paddy555]

Are you going to acknowledge that this thread did well in stopping a company from supplying a product at one tenth the advertised strength, Paddy? You were happy to criticise us for questioning the unbelievable price.
.

I was in fact criticising your post (which is in italics below) especially the last para. ie this company may not be reputable. At the time you posted you had insufficient info one way or another.

why do you think FP has c 500,000 per kilo?



Forage Plus has about c.500,000iu per kilo, working out much cheaper.


ETA the description has 50,000 iu per kg as the headline and lower down says 500,000 iu per kg and says 10g will deliver 5000 iu.

In view of the price I believe the headline figure is correct, the bottom figure is wrong, and the product is stuffed full of fillers. I don't believe anyone can sell 500,000 iu per kg vitamin E at that price.

I would have emailed them to check but there is no email address and their address on the site is a PO box and the phone numbers don't identify where they are either, which also tells me this company may not be reputable.
.

there is a link to click on on their site so no doubt you could have queried their product there. There are 3 phone numbers you could ring them, they are in Beds if you read further. They have a nutritionalist ie John Champman whose history is detailed. Both Graven and Horseheath have plenty of info on their sites re nutrition, just as much as many similar ventures. You can use paypal so it if doesn't turn up you can get your money back.

I have no idea if their vit E is good or not or if their price is reasonable. Perhaps other outlets are over charging for theirs, I have no idea. However I think it would be reasonable for people to find out accurate info before discrediting a business on here with having the facts.

(I have no connection to either graven or HH, I have never used either)

 

[paddy555]

Its how you think it worked. You had no control, no testing. This is based on your observation which is very biased towards an oil based product.

Yes, after this I am more biased towards an oil based product simply because I know with the same horse it worked a lot better than a powder based one. It is based on my observation but so is the majority of the stuff on here ie individuals comments based on their results with problems. Most of those people will have no control and no testing. I am simply giving my views on what worked best, ie oil and nano E and what didn't ie powder.

you make several comments on here re PSSM yet how many PSSM horses have you had and dealt with? very few I imagine so similar applies. You give your view/advice based on your observations and how you think something worked, I doubt you have control or testing.

This group isn't a science lab it is simply people giving advice and suggestions on what they have tried.

 

[nutjob]

There is nothing to suggest that it is diluted with another ingredient and no other ingredients listed. Where carriers are used in their other products, they are listed

It has definitely got some other ingredient in it because it is 25% vit E. That means 75% of the purchased product is some other substance. That it is not listed is not a good thing. This was likely in the product when they bought it and they have simply dispensed into small packets, however, they should state what else is in there whether they added it or not.

They don't disagree with the dose needed for performance or maintenance with the synthetic product so I don't think this is a difference of opinion on what the daily requirements are.

I was not looking at the synthetic product as I only get the natural one. For the natural product they do disagree, there is an almost x2 discrepancy in what they recommend as the daily dose in iu for maintenance, it's 1105iu vs 2000iu.

I think someone has made an error in calculation or mistyped or misread the specifications.

Yes, something weird that cannot be explained.

 

[criso]

It has definitely got some other ingredient in it because it is 25% vit E. That means 75% of the purchased product is some other substance. That it is not listed is not a good thing. This was likely in the product when they bought it and they have simply dispensed into small packets, however, they should state what else is in there whether they added it or not.

It's Forageplus that says 25% not Progressive Earth. PE just gives it as mg/kg but it works out as 25%

I mentioned the synthetic and other items just to highlight that they don't usually diverge.

 

[nutjob]

PE just gives it as mg/kg but it works out as 25%

I have seen that, this means that there is 75% of something else in the product which they don't mention.