Warmblood is a grading, not a type

[ycbm]

I keep seeing posts referring to warmblood horses as if they are a type. In fact, warmbloods can be of any type at all, from lightweight TB to full draft. They are graded as warmblood if they move well and are put together well. They don't even have to be from the region they are graded by. A Hanoverian, for example, might hold a Westfalian passport, and anything at all might hold a KWPN (Dutch) passport because it's a very sought after grading due to its very high standards.

There's absolutely no point in writing questions like 'My horse is a warmblood, what shall I feed it?' or saying 'my farrier shoes all warmbloods with double clip front shoes'.

Even in the early days of continental warmbloods, all it meant was a cold blood (draft) crossed with a hot blood (TB/Arab), so all IDxTB were warmbloods in everything but name.

Gone are the days from thirty years ago when a warmblood was a middleweight to heavy middleweight with a flat pelvis, that stood out like a sore thumb in a dressage warm-up arena.

So, if you want advice about your warmblood, can you please tell us what type of horse it is? Thanks

 

[Frumpoon]

Go on then, what do you know about oldenburgs on Westphalian passports

 

[ycbm]

Go on then, what do you know about oldenburgs on Westphalian passports

Why should I know anything about them? I owned a Hanoverian on a Westphalian one a few years back. Why do you ask the question?

 

[Frumpoon]

Well you seem to be an authority on warmbloods

 

[ycbm]

Well you seem to be an authority on warmbloods

My point is that warmbloods are so many different types that it is impossible to be an authority on all of them. I've no idea what you are trying to achieve with your posts, however. Can you enlighten me?

 

[rachk89]

What is the point of this other than to annoy people?

I doubt anyway that a lightweight tb could be a warmblood. For one thing tbs are considered as one of the hot blooded breeds generally.

I would go by warmblood as a type either way.

 

[tallyho!]

They have "become" a type.

 

[ycbm]

What is the point of this other than to annoy people?

I doubt anyway that a lightweight tb could be a warmblood. For one thing tbs are considered as one of the hot blooded breeds generally.

I would go by warmblood as a type either way.

My point is to enlighten people like you who don't realise that you could take a flat racer off the track and have it graded as a mare or an entire as a KWPN if it moves well enough and is made well enough.

This is exactly how they have lightened the warmbloods into eventers and the lightweight showjumper and dressage horses that you see today.

Why would this annoy anyone?

 

[YorksG]

Surely a warmblood is a cold blood x with a hot blood?

 

[ycbm]

Surely a warmblood is a cold blood x with a hot blood?

That was the origin of the term, but at least some of the warmblood societies will grade anything that moves well enough and is built well enough, is my understanding.

Also, what percentage of each? Many of the warmblood breed societies are papering horses that are a very high percentage of TB, looking at them.

Is a 7/8 TB a warmblood? How about 15/16? They can all carry passports which would be thought of as warmblood passports.

 

[ycbm]

They have "become" a type.

But they haven't, have they? They are going the other way, they are all sorts of different types. I've owned a middleweight who was almost a heavyweight, and a lightweight who was almost a TB. Both on KWPN passports, both by KWPN Grand Prix sires from well graded mares.

They used to be a MW/heavy MW type with a flat pelvis thirty years ago but that's certainly not the case now.

 

[Regandal]

My 'warmblood' has a long flat back. According to his passport, issued in the UK, he is a Dutch Warmblood. Could be anything in there!

 

[ycbm]

My 'warmblood' has a long flat back. According to his passport, issued in the UK, he is a Dutch Warmblood. Could be anything in there!

That's exactly what I mean by the old type of warmblood, a very flat pelvis, so there is almost a straight line from behind the saddle to the root of the tail. It's not something you see so much of these days, but it did seem to go with a very bouncy 'above the ground' movement, does yours have it?

One particular mare I used to admire, belonging to a friend of mine, also had a natural almost Spanish walk, does yours?

 

[Regandal]

Lord yes! He's a broken showjumper, a happy hacker now. His canter is huge.

 

[tallyho!]

But they haven't, have they? They are going the other way, they are all sorts of different types. I've owned a middleweight who was almost a heavyweight, and a lightweight who was almost a TB. Both on KWPN passports, both by KWPN Grand Prix sires from well graded mares.

They used to be a MW/heavy MW type with a flat pelvis thirty years ago but that's certainly not the case now.

Sorry I have no idea, I still see the the "type" you describe. I have no idea about all the others.

 

[ycbm]

Lord yes! He's a broken showjumper, a happy hacker now. His canter is huge.

My guess would be he's exactly what he's been passported as

 

[Regandal]

I don't school him as such, he had navicular. He will show off in the field, it is breath taking. His natural passage is stunning. I could watch him for hours!

 

[flirtygerty]

scuse my ignorance, I can tell an arab from a highland and that's about it, however I have an alleged wb mare, came from a dodgy rescue without a passport, (didn't know it was dodgy) as a companion/happy hacker, she is a lovely dappled bay and built like a tank, double mane and thick tail, personally I don't care if she came from a carthorse, she does her job, but can I ask how you know if she has a flat pelvis and why is that important in a wb

 

[ycbm]

Sorry I have no idea, I still see the the "type" you describe. I have no idea about all the others.

Take a look at the horses competing internationally at eventing. Lots of them look like TBs, or crosses with a very heavy TB percentage, but are papered with warmblood societies.

 

[ycbm]

scuse my ignorance, I can tell an arab from a highland and that's about it, however I have an alleged wb mare, came from a dodgy rescue without a passport, (didn't know it was dodgy) as a companion/happy hacker, she is a lovely dappled bay and built like a tank, double mane and thick tail, personally I don't care if she came from a carthorse, she does her job, but can I ask how you know if she has a flat pelvis and why is that important in a wb

I think you have misunderstood me? It was thirty years back that you could tell a horse was a warmblood import, or very likely to be one, by its flat pelvis. They aren't common any more and it would be more likely these days to be considered a bit of a conformation flaw.

 

[Tnavas]

Surely a warmblood is a cold blood x with a hot blood?

Which is why I refer to my Clydesdales progeny as warmbloods - but I can't register them because my mare is a Clydesdale!

ycbm - I think you have a very valid point - they are all different - some are almost TB now - there has been so much TB added to their line - others still remain close to the original Cold x Hot mix. Even pure TB's vary in 'type' considerably - I've had ones that grow coats like a Shetland and feather that a Clydesdale would be proud of, yet they are registered TB's - others shiver the moment the sun goes down and require a truck load of food a week.

 

[tallyho!]

Take a look at the horses competing internationally at eventing. Lots of them look like TBs, or crosses with a very heavy TB percentage, but are papered with warmblood societies.

That's probably my problem then, I don't really look at competition much these days.

It says more about the market breeders are selling to than the type or non-type of horse.

 

[ycbm]

Which is why I refer to my Clydesdales progeny as warmbloods - but I can't register them because my mare is a Clydesdale!

ycbm - I think you have a very valid point - they are all different - some are almost TB now - there has been so much TB added to their line - others still remain close to the original Cold x Hot mix. Even pure TB's vary in 'type' considerably - I've had ones that grow coats like a Shetland and feather that a Clydesdale would be proud of, yet they are registered TB's - others shiver the moment the sun goes down and require a truck load of food a week.

Yes, you can't really even call TB one type, can you? I've had a chaser type middleweight of 16.2 and a 15 hand twiglet, both Wetherbys pure TB.

 

[EventingMum]

Traditionally they were cold blood x arab or TB but as continental breeding became more selective the idea of breeding a more specific type developed and gradings helped ensure the qualities a specific breed society wanted were preserved but equally the desired type of some societies has changed over the the years. It was my understanding that the WB societies could introduce different bloodlines to enhance their breed eg more TB was introduced to many WB lines to produce a more modern type of sports horse. Old fashioned WBs often couldn't gallop well enough to make the time eventing so selected TB blood was added to address this with the added bonus of these eventers often having more desirable movement than the traditional TBs. WB breeding has been reactive to the type of horses in demand whereas traditional breeds such as TB, Arab and natives has been about preserving the original characteristics of the breed although I do agree TBs do have a variety of shapes and sizes.

 

[Tnavas]

In fact when you think about it - the original TB was the warmblood of its day. They were quality horses crossed with Arabians - the repeated breeding to arab and the 'New TB' resulted in the horses becoming lighter and faster. In much the way they are now.

I love to wind up my warmblood snobby friend by reminding her that her very expensive horse started its line as a possible cross between a Clydesdale and a TB or Arabian - its hilarious seeing her splutter.

Sometimes I think of where the action comes from for those high knee action dressage horses - most likely from the Hackney horses used as the cold/cool base. One of my youngsters a Clyde x TB had an extended trot to die for!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Well, I'm enjoying this thread OP. I've always been *slightly* confused about Warmbloods. Only slightly, because I don't really care about breeds, only a horses ability to be a general all rounder, which most can to some or other degree with the right training and daily routine.

Anyway, from what I gathered I thought Warmbloods might be a breed in their own right, with each country having its own version. I never paid them much attention, believing them to be primarily used as competition horses upto a high level.

Now I'm thinking of Warmbloods as similar to "designer cross breed" dogs, except the Warmblood horse, unlike the labradoodle etc, is certified as good enough to be included into someone's stud book. Hope I've understood you correctly.

Apart from that certification I'm thinking "Warmblood" is a fairly pointless term that tells a person little about the horse, other than that it's a good one and who its parents were, which is admittedly useful info. I'd still prefer a cross breed to be described as such though eg IDxTB, or 7/8ths TB or whatever it is. It's a shame they don't include that info on the passport.

 

[alainax]

Anyway, from what I gathered I thought Warmbloods might be a breed in their own right, with each country having its own version. I never paid them much attention,


.

I thought the same, and I am now more confused with the comment -

and anything at all might hold a KWPN (Dutch) passport because it's a very sought after grading due to its very high standards.
)

So it doesn't have to have KWPN parents? Do each of the warmblood types/gradings/breeds have particular standards as with a breed standard?

Iv'e never cared too much for them anyway, primarily because when they started to appear on the scene I could never tell them apart from a TBx now it makes sense if that is what essentially they are

 

[Tnavas]

Well, I'm enjoying this thread OP. I've always been *slightly* confused about Warmbloods. Only slightly, because I don't really care about breeds, only a horses ability to be a general all rounder, which most can to some or other degree with the right training and daily routine.

Anyway, from what I gathered I thought Warmbloods might be a breed in their own right, with each country having its own version. I never paid them much attention, believing them to be primarily used as competition horses upto a high level.

Now I'm thinking of Warmbloods as similar to "designer cross breed" dogs, except the Warmblood horse, unlike the labradoodle etc, is certified as good enough to be included into someone's stud book. Hope I've understood you correctly.

Apart from that certification I'm thinking "Warmblood" is a fairly pointless term that tells a person little about the horse, other than that it's a good one and who its parents were, which is admittedly useful info. I'd still prefer a cross breed to be described as such though eg IDxTB, or 7/8ths TB or whatever it is. It's a shame they don't include that info on the passport.

They were originally bred as Army remounts - they needed to be strong, healthy, have a bit of speed as well and not be too ploddy. I'm not 100% sure but I think the Holsteiner is the oldest of them. Germany had special studs where they were bred, government run so all horses were registered from year dot. Each area/country bred their own design. Trakhener have ponies in their breeding.

And I like to think that the UK warmblood was the purpose bred 'Hunter' - the Hunter Improvement Society of decades ago certainly worked hard to make quality stallions available. Game Rights, Pinzan, Nickle King to name a few.

 

[ycbm]

In fact when you think about it - the original TB was the warmblood of its day. They were quality horses crossed with Arabians - the repeated breeding to arab and the 'New TB' resulted in the horses becoming lighter and faster. In much the way they are now.

I love to wind up my warmblood snobby friend by reminding her that her very expensive horse started its line as a possible cross between a Clydesdale and a TB or Arabian - its hilarious seeing her splutter.

Sometimes I think of where the action comes from for those high knee action dressage horses - most likely from the Hackney horses used as the cold/cool base. One of my youngsters a Clyde x TB had an extended trot to die for!

I think I'm right on saying that they identified a Shetland very early on in the DNA of TB horses, a couple of years back. I'll need to check that out now.

What started me off on this was checking back my Westphalian's passport and finding he was at least three quarters Hanoverian. So clearly not much differentiation between those breeds.

Breeding to type depends a lot on whether stud books are closed, as Wetherbys TB stud book - so only the offspring of two registered horses can be registered, or open, as I believe all the warmblood are.

 

[ycbm]

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/01/25/shetland-pony-behind-thoroughbred-speed/

Yes, Shetland genes responsible for tb speed muscle type