Warmblood is a grading, not a type

[shortstuff99]

What happens if you have a hot blood x hot blood (PRExTB) what does that make I just call them mental! Lol

 

[Pigeon]

No it didn't literally mean that, it was more like the word "middleweight", "riding-horse", "hunter" or "cob". It was used to say that the horse was NOT a draft, nor a hotblood. Yes, it could potentially be a cross of various things, but it was more likely a wb type horse out of wb type parents. That type encompassed a lot of older loosely grouped breeds of saddle-horse and carriage-horse, which were then refined and improved over the years, with additions of outside blood to add bone or athleticism when needed. Yes, in times of need some working animals were used as broodmares to up the numbers for the cavalry (though these would have probably been a little more like the welsh cob, quite small and versatile rather than a literal heavy draft horse, feeding heavies in war-time wouldn't have been easy) but the majority was made up of established warmblood/middleweight/riding-horse types - I know they imported Cleveland bays and similar. So to say the registries started with hotbloods crossed with coldbloods is more than a bit simplistic.

I think a tb x clyde is a good honest cross, why not just call her that?

 

[Goldenstar]

Interesting this. My ID - people tend to think he's either warmblood or Spanish, as he's quite light for a full ID and maybe has flashier paces.

It's interesting because some once said to me that H had a lot of bone for a Iberian I said that was because he's a RID and decided it was time to pull his mane and cut his tail.
Perhaps he's got a bit of something in there .
He's got that wavy mane and tail hair you often see on Spanish types .

 

[Pigeon]

Nearly there. A warmblood is any coldblood hotblood cross.

Noooo it's not!! Because if we are using the old traditional definition, technically Cleveland Bays, RIDs, Hackneys etc are all warmbloods Although I guess when the term was originally used it could include a draft x, but that wasn't its definition - it included many other things too.

The modern definition I think is horses of the established continental registries.

But there is nothing to stop you calling your crossbred a warmblood. It just implies something else, I wouldn't personally do it, because then you have the awkward convo of "which registry?" "errr..."

 

[ycbm]

Noooo it's not!!

What do you think it is then?

Because we've already established that a graded Hanoverian foal can be half Arab

Of course it's any cross, and it's been hijacked as a continental marketing term, now finally used for British warmblood as well.

To say anything else is like saying the Nissan Juke isn't a crossover because only Germans make crossovers

I suspect the term is century's old, I'm about to go see if I can find out.

 

[ycbm]

I love how we now have name dropping on this thread.

I still maintain that the differences seen in different types of warmblood (is it the germans or the dutch that split them into different types/names for driving/dressage/jumping) aren't really that much different to each other than arabs bred for different purposes/welshies bred for different purposes/TBs bred for different purposes.

I completely agree with you on the TB, where you can get a 14.2 flat racer with legs made out of kebab skewers and an 18 hand steeplechaser with middleweight hunter bone.

 

[popsdosh]

This is the information I was told when I bought him at the time from ex conservative MP Nicholas Budgen, in Lichfield somewhere so I had no reason to doubt him. His Sire was Senang Hati who stood at 17hh and his Dam Brindley Ford (ex hunter from Leicestershire), so Mikki (as I named him) was passported/papered as Senang Ford - he stood at 16.3hh, bright bay. This is the information showing on Senange Hati's record.http://www.sporthorsegb.co.uk/horse.aspx?id=S10227

AS A THREE YEAR OLD STARTED THIRTEEN TIMES WON THREE (CHARTENHALL JUVENILE NOVICES HURDLE 2M AT KELSO; GILLE BROTHERS NOVICES HURDLE 2m AT PERTH; CAPRINGTON NOVICES HURDLE 2m AT AYR) PLACED TWICE

Mikki hated showjumping and he hated dressage and was a very lazy horse. But show him a XC course and he came alive, he was amazing XC, guess it was in his blood to gallop!

They are three novice hurdles ! Theres a bit of a difference to winning the champion hurdle as you originally put
' I had an ISH in 1998. He was out of a horse called Senang Haiti who was a three times champion hurdler.'

So mother must have been a registered ID then?

 

[JulesRules]

So I've read all the the thread and I'm not much the wiser.

Is my "Polish Warmblood " actually a warmblood at all? It doesn't matter to me. She is what she is..a rose by any other name and all that..

http://www.bazakoni.pl/database,op-show_tree,horse-160794.html

 

[ycbm]

from another forum

Let's see...I've got in front of me
"The Flight of the East Prussian Horses" (Trakehner)
My edition is dated 1973, but it is reprinted from the 1966 edition.
It refers to:
<snip>"....what had become of the Trakehner--the famous breed of East-Prussian warmblood horses--...."

 

[ycbm]

1804, an ENGLISH coaching book


"We are not likely to find ourselves in agreement on the most pleasing coach-horse and we anticipate conjecture and thought with our readers and debate amongst them on this very subject.

Any gentleman coachman will know that for stamp of horses for a long days work, there is nothing that can beat a thoroughly blood bred one. The more hot blood you have in your horses, the better you will be able to complete a long and trying journey. Still such high bred horses are not what the common mass will consider and designate coach horses. For those with limited means their best hot blood horses are most often preserved for sport. For a true gentleman they would always be the choice of coach-horse.

The old-stage coachmen used to say they desired a big heavy horse for a hill team and the small compact quick-stepping fast-galloping little horse for a flat stage. Readers must remember that in those days the loads were heavy and drivers were common men and no doubt the big heavy plodding cold blood horse put his shoulder well to it and suited that ilk.

In these days when the road coach only carries dignified passengers and no luggage to speak of, we should prefer for all sorts of travel and terrains the shorter stepping and small, more refined, though thick warm blood horses. They are definitely more pleasing to drive than the slow, big lolloping team of under bred cold blood horses who are very tired and will accept hanging on the driver&#8217;s hands for miles.

Study the old pictures and stamp of horse used formerly for a flat stage and in France and other foreign places. It is not all disagreeable amusement trying to find horses of decent stamp and with some hot blood. Of course they had short tails and hence that oft alters the appearance of the stamp to a horse and renders it more difficult to determine the true stamp. The well-practiced eye of a gentleman very conversant with thoroughly blood bred horses will see its exact shape and can make out that though its appearance has been altered by the circumstances of a short tail, it may please him to have this sort of horse in his stable.

Remember though a warm blood is neither a hot blood nor a cold blood. These terms do not refer to body temperature but to the quality and temperament of the horse. They are a curious mix. Sangoine froid translates as cold blood but really it means phlegmatic and so is best for the common working man. Warmblut means a management temperament that is easy and is needed for a general coaching horse neither intended for racing and sport by the gentleman nor agricultural work by the common man.

A great difficulty with regard to coach-horses in a gentleman&#8217;s establishment, so different from public coach-horses, who run their twelve miles every day, is the want of work. The gentleman will have other sporting interests which detract his attention.

Therefore either the master or his ostler or groom must try to exercise what sense has been given each in apportioning the necessary amount of exercise to make up for the want of work. One great difficultly to contend with is that if his master is at home he dare not fitten the horses too much or give them too much exercise in the morning for fear he be ordered out in the afternoon and have a long journey before him. So reader you must remember to say whether you want the horses tomorrow and so the groom can accordingly give them their exercise.

It is these sort of establishments that benefit from coach-horses with a little less hot blood. The warm blood will look better than the round dray-horse and will thrive better than a thoroughly blood bred horse whose work is so irregular.

If the stamp of horses are chosen wisely they can look pleasant and may still be used for such as hunting on wheels or to drive to hare coursing and even perhaps to bring the victor home."

A Sporting Tour through England and a Great Part of Scotland - Colonel Thomas Thornton 1804

 

[Pigeon]

It's a very old term, I expect 17th c.

So essentially, in previous centuries, warmblood was a 'type'. It technically meant anything that was not a blood horse (tb/arab/spanish, it seems to refer particularly to those not just because of stamp, but also because they have recorded breeding) or coldblood (heavy draft). In practice it usually refers to a quality middleweight type used for riding, cavalry or carriage driving. It could be a mixed breed or a purebred. It doesn't seem like it was very widely used by English speakers. We used "hunter", France used "saddle/riding-horse" and so on.

Nowadays, it is usually used as an abbreviation of dutch/belgian/polish (etc) warmblood, meaning horses from those registries which have strived for decades to breed equine athletes in an organised fashion. The foundations of which were built on warmbloods like the Cleveland Bay and Norfolk Trotter. (NOT hotbloods crossed with coldbloods)

Because all of these books require performance testing, a horse with one of these passports is (supposedly) guaranteed to be of good quality, and therefore have a hefty price tag. So I can see why people who have horses of mixed breeding are wanting now to refer to them as warmbloods, rather than just breed x breed. Same thing happened with Sporthorse (which is now pretty much meaningless).

I guess there is nothing stopping you calling anything vaguely middleweight a warmblood. And I guess that could include hotbloods crossed with coldbloods. But if you are using the term in that manner, it would also include Cleveland Bays, Hackneys, Quarterhorses, Brumbies, Irish Draughts and so on.

 

[Clodagh]

It's interesting because some once said to me that H had a lot of bone for a Iberian I said that was because he's a RID and decided it was time to pull his mane and cut his tail.
Perhaps he's got a bit of something in there .
He's got that wavy mane and tail hair you often see on Spanish types .

I haven't read the whole thread but I am sure horses got washed up on Ireland from Spain - the Armada possibly? Therefore Iberian breeding is in Irish horses. My ID x connie x heaven knows that looked very Iberian.

 

[ycbm]

I haven't read the whole thread but I am sure horses got washed up on Ireland from Spain - the Armada possibly? Therefore Iberian breeding is in Irish horses. My ID x connie x heaven knows that looked very Iberian.

My friend's pure Connie would pass for pure PRE any day of the week

 

[Tnavas]

No it didn't literally mean that, it was more like the word "middleweight", "riding-horse", "hunter" or "cob". It was used to say that the horse was NOT a draft, nor a hotblood. Yes, it could potentially be a cross of various things, but it was more likely a wb type horse out of wb type parents. That type encompassed a lot of older loosely grouped breeds of saddle-horse and carriage-horse, which were then refined and improved over the years, with additions of outside blood to add bone or athleticism when needed. Yes, in times of need some working animals were used as broodmares to up the numbers for the cavalry (though these would have probably been a little more like the welsh cob, quite small and versatile rather than a literal heavy draft horse, feeding heavies in war-time wouldn't have been easy) but the majority was made up of established warmblood/middleweight/riding-horse types - I know they imported Cleveland bays and similar. So to say the registries started with hotbloods crossed with coldbloods is more than a bit simplistic.

I think a tb x clyde is a good honest cross, why not just call her that?

You are wrong - Warmbloods were bred to produce MILITARY horses for the Cavalry at the time they were for pulling gun carriages, remounts for the soldiers - they were never designated Riding Horse, Hunter or cob - I think you need to do some research because your original warmblood was indeed a cross between carriage/working horses and TB's or Arabians.

Now we might look at them as middleweight, Riding horses etc - though they do tend to be labelled Dressage or Showjumper - the horse in my last post has paces to die for and can and will jump whatever she is faced with. Those pictures were taken just three weeks after being broken, and the first time jumped under saddle.

She had a bright future ahead of her but sadly the lady I sold her to allowed her to get laminitis so badly that she was put to sleep at just 7 years old.

 

[applecart14]

They are three novice hurdles ! Theres a bit of a difference to winning the champion hurdle as you originally put
' I had an ISH in 1998. He was out of a horse called Senang Haiti who was a three times champion hurdler.'

So mother must have been a registered ID then?

FFS Popsdosh the reason I bought the horse wasn't because of his sire, or his dam or even that he was an ISH. It was because I wanted to 'replace' the horse I had tragically lost a couple of weeks before. I wanted a 16-3hh -17hh bay gelding. Mikki ticked the box as he was bay, a gelding and 16.3hh. Also within the price range I had set.

I didn't even know what an ISH was. We had to ask the vendor. I am no pretentious t**T I am just explaining myself and the fact that someone on this post had put that ISH had been around for 20 years which led me on to my reply that I bought this horse in 1998.

 

[applecart14]

I love how we now have name dropping on this thread.

.

Ester I am assuming that this is directed towards me. I WAS NOT name dropping, just informing Popsdosh about how I came about my horse. I was related a tale about how I bought Mikki, I am not pretentious, anyone who knows me would no that, and the very fact that you don't proves my point. I was just explaining that I was told what ISH was, and the bloke (N.B as I am not allowed to name drop!) was amazed I didn't know. That's because I really didn't give a stuff.

I bought my current horse because I wanted a bay gelding with white markings gelding, 17hh - 17.1hh aged between 7-10. I couldn't have cared if he was shanks pony to be honest as long as he fitted my criteria. Yes Bailey has fantastic breeding, but again, when I was told by the dealer about his sire (a very well known stallion - but again not allowed to name drop ) I hadn't a clue, had never heard of him, but when I looked him up, gosh, he was world famous! Because it is of no interest to me, its how I gell with the horse and whether he has a kind eye as to whether I buy him. Its how you 'make and mould a horse' not what his Grandsire was or is - don't give a stuff. Occassionally I change his passported name at the odd unaffiliated show to reflect his Grandsires name, a play on words, and the same name as his big brother back in Holland, but that's a bit of fun for me, and not to say to people 'oh, look at my horse, he is well bred'. And its because the judge can never pronounce his real name, and always say it wrong which annoys the hell out of me! All my horses have been well bred, except the first one, but that was luck and not because I wanted this for myself, like I say I don't care.

And to prove a point about how breeding is a load of tosh, having a horse with an eye problem, repeated colics, bone spavin, coffin joint arthritis, and second degree heart block is not my idea of a well bred horse. A very famous showjumper long retired but his children and grandchildren very famous in the world of showjumping (again I won't name drop ) once said to me that his horses were selected from their Grandsires. I.e if there grandsires were famous their offspring would not be so good, but their offspring would be phenomenal.

 

[popsdosh]

FFS Popsdosh the reason I bought the horse wasn't because of his sire, or his dam or even that he was an ISH. It was because I wanted to 'replace' the horse I had tragically lost a couple of weeks before. I wanted a 16-3hh -17hh bay gelding. Mikki ticked the box as he was bay, a gelding and 16.3hh. Also within the price range I had set.

I didn't even know what an ISH was. We had to ask the vendor. I am no pretentious t**T I am just explaining myself and the fact that someone on this post had put that ISH had been around for 20 years which led me on to my reply that I bought this horse in 1998.

If you state things as facts expect to be put right if there not correct.
From what you said in your initial post you led people to assume that you had a ISH whos father had won the champion hurdle three times . Neither of which were correct !

Please enlighten me if I am incorrect on either of those facts the ISH as a registry is relatively new and I would be gobsmacked if your horse indeed had an ISH passport.

 

[popsdosh]

And to prove a point about how breeding is a load of tosh, having a horse with an eye problem, repeated colics, bone spavin, coffin joint arthritis, and second degree heart block is not my idea of a well bred horse. A very famous showjumper long retired but his children and grandchildren very famous in the world of showjumping (again I won't name drop ) once said to me that his horses were selected from their Grandsires. I.e if there grandsires were famous their offspring would not be so good, but their offspring would be phenomenal.

Nothing in that list likely to be due to breeding just bad luck and doing to much to young.

 

[ester]

Well I'm not sure it brought anything to the story adding in an ex conservative MP! I think 'his previous owner told me' would have sufficed for most people . Or does his position make him more likely to be an upstanding member of the community - or quite possibly the opposite and therefore not to be believed and that was what you were getting at!?

 

[Pigeon]

You are wrong - Warmbloods were bred to produce MILITARY horses for the Cavalry at the time they were for pulling gun carriages, remounts for the soldiers - they were never designated Riding Horse, Hunter or cob - I think you need to do some research because your original warmblood was indeed a cross between carriage/working horses and TB's or Arabians.

Nope! Although they were primarily military, they were also for coach/carriage driving and mounts for the noblemen. Also artillery horses were a different stamp and would have had slightly different breeding. Although there may well have been farm horses in there, I doubt there were many. It was mostly, as you said, carriage horses - Hackney Types, and pre-existing military mounts - Cleveland Bay types. Definitely no Clyde unfortunately. All I'm trying to get across is that it was a much more complicated programme than "oh, let's get a heavy horse and a light horse and breed them and hope we get something in the middle", and that is not how it began.

 

[applecart14]

If you state things as facts expect to be put right if there not correct.
From what you said in your initial post you led people to assume that you had a ISH whos father had won the champion hurdle three times . Neither of which were correct !

Please enlighten me if I am incorrect on either of those facts the ISH as a registry is relatively new and I would be gobsmacked if your horse indeed had an ISH passport.

I will scan the papers (if I can still find them) into the works copier tomorrow and personally email you the copy if this satisfies your need to constantly tell me that I am wrong on everything that I ever write on this forum

Do PM me your email address

 

[applecart14]

Nothing in that list likely to be due to breeding just bad luck and doing to much to young.

Well I wouldn't know about the second thing as I only had him as a seven year old so cannot be accused of that at least.

 

[applecart14]

Well I'm not sure it brought anything to the story adding in an ex conservative MP! I think 'his previous owner told me' would have sufficed for most people . Or does his position make him more likely to be an upstanding member of the community - or quite possibly the opposite and therefore not to be believed and that was what you were getting at!?

Flipping heck Ester, why do you insist on scrutinising everything that I say, tearing it apart, disagreeing with me on every point. You would argue that the grass was blue, honestly.

It wasn't done for ANY REASON.

 

[ester]

Oh, that's fine then, I don't expect I was the only one to think it an odd thing to mention, I am surprised that you cannot see that/thought it brought something to the story.

 

[marmalade76]

An irish sports horse is bred from approved stallions out of registered mares in Ireland .they dont go through any system.

Senang hati stood in this country very successfully at louella stud for many seasons before going to Ireland.
By the way he did not win the champion hurdle even once let alone 3 times as he only raced on the flat!

Lol! I did wonder how I had never heard of a triple Champion Hurdle winner who was an entire!

 

[Luci07]

I am laughing rewding this thread. Lev put up on a post recently about things you must do on all posts..and this one has ticked pretty much all her boxes. Includes commenting when you haven't actually bothered to read the entire thread so responses get duplicated. I think Applecart has established that it was an honest error (and tbh...so what...she simply repeated what she was told). Some of you have really jumped on her from a great height though and that was not needed. The correction was interesting. End of.

I am finding most posters threads interesting. My preference has always been ISH so am reasonably well versed in that but having bought a Czech WB..had to come to this forum to have his breeding translated. Actually didn't know that Furisio is not only a well known stallion...it is actually a breed !

 

[applecart14]

I think Applecart has established that it was an honest error (and tbh...so what...she simply repeated what she was told). Some of you have really jumped on her from a great height though and that was not needed. The correction was interesting. End of.
!

Thank you. Blimey I won't bother next time ...

 

[marmalade76]

Thing is, Applecart, that info as simple as a list of past Champion Hurdle winners is easily and freely available on the net, eg:- http://www.racinguk.com/stan-james-champion-hurdle-facts

 

[ycbm]

I am laughing rewding this thread. Lev put up on a post recently about things you must do on all posts..and this one has ticked pretty much all her boxes.

This thread started with the best of HHO intentions. Rapidly became the worst of HHO, some posts were deleted, and then turned into the best of HHO sharing knowledge and experiences. Then turned back into the worst of HHO again.

I thought bear baiting went out centuries ago

 

[marmalade76]

Why were posts deleted??