Warmblood is a grading, not a type

[ycbm]

I thought the same, and I am now more confused with the comment -


So it doesn't have to have KWPN parents? Do each of the warmblood types/gradings/breeds have particular standards as with a breed standard?

Iv'e never cared too much for them anyway, primarily because when they started to appear on the scene I could never tell them apart from a TBx now it makes sense if that is what essentially they are

Yes, it used to be recognised that the hardest standard was KWPN, and you would often find horses which failed KWPN grading presented for grading, and passing, with another breed society. I don't know if this is still the case, but the improvement in Irish sport horse grading was a lot to do with assistance they got from KWPN on setting their standards and testing systems, I believe.

Essentially, British and Irish draft crosses have always been warmbloods, it just took us a long time to start calling them that, and even longer to breed the quality in numbers that the state subsidized continental breeders were producing.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I guess this is an example of what YBCM is talking about. This stallion (Is Orlow Ox) is approved for several warmblood studbooks. As i understand it, you can breed your papered warmblood mare (from one of those studbooks) to him and the foal will be a fully registered warmblood. Of course it will also be 50% arabian if the mare carries no arab blood, or more if she does.

http://www.hengsthaltung-kathmann.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idart=288

He's not the only arab I've heard of being approved either and there are also anglos that have been approved and shagyas.

It's not just on the continent either, the arab Zygmunt is an approved ISH.

So the question is (following on from my example stallion above) would advice for a warmblood that was on the 'colder' side be different to a warmblood that was on the 'hotter' side and essentially a very high % PBA?

 

[spacefaer]

My KWPN passported dressage horse was mainly Holstein and Oldenburg, with only a couple of graded KWPN horses in his pedigree.

So far as I was concerned, he was a Dutch warmblood, as that is where he was born!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Sometimes I think of where the action comes from for those high knee action dressage horses - most likely from the Hackney horses used as the cold/cool base. One of my youngsters a Clyde x TB had an extended trot to die for!

Indeed I think Hackney and the resulting carriage bred breeds have had quite a lot of influence on the continent. There are a few knocking about the dressage scene, Steph Croxford had a few at high level doing well.

Obviously this is what made me pick my own 'warmbloods' of Friesian x Hackney, the newest even has Holstein in so extra 'warm blood'? Not sure I would ever call them that though . Well actually would Freisian be draft enough for it to count? Both are fairly old fashioned in body shape (though the baby is a bit young to tell how she will end up), medium to heavy build, good amount of bone and flat (when working) from saddle to bum. Made fitting a saddle challenging for the older one!

 

[Tnavas]

Indeed I think Hackney and the resulting carriage bred breeds have had quite a lot of influence on the continent. There are a few knocking about the dressage scene, Steph Croxford had a few at high level doing well.

Obviously this is what made me pick my own 'warmbloods' of Friesian x Hackney, the newest even has Holstein in so extra 'warm blood'? Not sure I would ever call them that though . Well actually would Freisian be draft enough for it to count? Both are fairly old fashioned in body shape (though the baby is a bit young to tell how she will end up), medium to heavy build, good amount of bone and flat (when working) from saddle to bum. Made fitting a saddle challenging for the older one!

Lovely horses, interesting cross.
Friesians were fore mostly carriage horses so definitely fit the criteria.

 

[ycbm]

I guess this is an example of what YBCM is talking about. This stallion (Is Orlow Ox) is approved for several warmblood studbooks. As i understand it, you can breed your papered warmblood mare (from one of those studbooks) to him and the foal will be a fully registered warmblood. Of course it will also be 50% arabian if the mare carries no arab blood, or more if she does.

http://www.hengsthaltung-kathmann.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idart=288

He's not the only arab I've heard of being approved either and there are also anglos that have been approved and shagyas.

It's not just on the continent either, the arab Zygmunt is an approved ISH.

So the question is (following on from my example stallion above) would advice for a warmblood that was on the 'colder' side be different to a warmblood that was on the 'hotter' side and essentially a very high % PBA?

Faracat that's an excellent example and a beautiful horse!

And the answer to your question, of course, is that his offspring compared to Totilas offspring from the same mare would be likely to be like chalk and cheese.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I have a Deutsches Reitpony. His breed were originally bred by crossing TB, Arab, AngloArab and Welsh Sec A. It wasn't until the mid 80's that any German blood was introduced and quickly dropped as it didn't have the desired effect. He has a Westphalian passport because he was graded in Westphalia not because he is a warmblood.

His previous owner is an old friend who breeds Rheinlenders in Germany. They are a very old fashioned and probably rather forgotten WB breed and I doubt many people in England would have heard of them. To this day her horses have the flat pelvis which you could probably picnic off of and are a completely different shape to those WB's you see in the dressage arena here.

 

[ester]

I don't really see that it is that different to the situation with most other breeds (so technically should be even more consistent than a 'type'.
There is certainly a huge range of welsh cobs that is for certain, from the sporty lightweight types jumping top flight juniors to the square solid type that can only manage a cat-leap impression of a jump .

 

[marmalade76]

Great post, OP!

The continentals have taken many of our breeds to improve their horses then re branded them and sold them back to us. It's a shame breeders here have been so slow to follow their example and also a shame that some of our own breeds, like the Hackney, have almost been forgotten and are now rare. I wouldn't mind something with a good dose of Hackney, AFAIA they are hardy and make good jumpers

 

[Goldenstar]

I have a horse with a KWPN passport both his parents are American saddle breds imported to holland from the US as part of a scheme to improve the Dutch harness horse .
The term warmblood covers many types of horses doing many different things .
My TB would have graded as a warmblood as a young horse he has the attributes they look for in the light weight sport horse .
You could have exactly the same discussion about the Irish sport horse .

 

[Fun Times]

Oh I am pleased you started this thread OP. My horse is registered as British Warmblood but when I looked up his dam and sire they are ID and tb respectively, so I was always very confused as to whether warmblood was just a fancy way of saying IDxTB. So it would be right to call him an IDxTB, but what makes him a warmblood is presumably that he or his parents have passed the required grading of the British Warmblood Studbook??

 

[Rollin]

As far as I am concerned the original warmblood was the Yorkshire Coach Horse, a cross between TB and Cleveland Bay. The Stud book did not survive, the Cleveland Bay did, just!! Only 19 pure bred foals registered last year. George III sent his best CB and YCH stallions to Germany, which is why you will find Duke of Cleveland and Young Duke of Cleveland, for example in the back pedigrees of top Holsteins who compete today. I have also found 5 (so far) Cleveland Bays in the SF Stud book, dating back to the days, when the SF was a demi-sang or half blood. I often find that pedigrees and stud books mean nothing, for example an Irish Sport Horse or a SF SJ which actually has mostly TB.

The reason for the demise of the YCH was because breeders found that too much 'hot' blood was detrimental to the breed. I have horses from there closed stud books and although I cross my Shagya Arabs with my CB's to produce nice young sport horses, I still breed pure to both stud books.

 

[ycbm]

Oh I am pleased you started this thread OP. My horse is registered as British Warmblood but when I looked up his dam and sire they are ID and tb respectively, so I was always very confused as to whether warmblood was just a fancy way of saying IDxTB. So it would be right to call him an IDxTB, but what makes him a warmblood is presumably that he or his parents have passed the required grading of the British Warmblood Studbook??

Well my understanding is that technically what makes him a warmblood is that he is a hotblood crossed with a coldblood. In the UK and Ireland we were just very slow to cotton on to the fact that continental breeders were using it as marketing term. Then I think what happened was that partly because they are subsidised to produce great horses by the states they are bred in, continental warmbloods became synonymous with 'quality'. We have finally started to catch up and some wonderful Irish sport horses and British warmbloods are being bred now. But we don't have a level playing field when horse breeding in Germany and Holland are subsidized by their tax payers. I'm sure the Irish and British breeders would give their eye teeth for a state sponsored National Stud.

 

[ycbm]

As far as I am concerned the original warmblood was the Yorkshire Coach Horse, a cross between TB and Cleveland Bay. The Stud book did not survive, the Cleveland Bay did, just!! Only 19 pure bred foals registered last year. George III sent his best CB and YCH stallions to Germany, which is why you will find Duke of Cleveland and Young Duke of Cleveland, for example in the back pedigrees of top Holsteins who compete today. I have also found 5 (so far) Cleveland Bays in the SF Stud book, dating back to the days, when the SF was a demi-sang or half blood. I often find that pedigrees and stud books mean nothing, for example an Irish Sport Horse or a SF SJ which actually has mostly TB.

The reason for the demise of the YCH was because breeders found that too much 'hot' blood was detrimental to the breed. I have horses from there closed stud books and although I cross my Shagya Arabs with my CB's to produce nice young sport horses, I still breed pure to both stud books.

I have a book which quotes Paul Schokemohle as saying exactly this, that the original German warmbloods were Cleveland Bays from Northern England crossed with English thoroughbreds.

 

[Rollin]

ycbm What is the name of the book? A couple of years ago the EU Shagya Championships were held at one of the German National Studs, their website gave particular credit to the Cleveland Bay.

 

[atropa]

My horse is a Belgian Warmblood, her lineage going back at least 4 generations is filled with Belgian Warmbloods, Holsteiners and Hanoverians, all warmblood 'breeds', so what else could I call her apart from a Belgian Warmblood?

 

[ycbm]

My horse is a Belgian Warmblood, her lineage going back least 4 generations is filled with Belgian Warmbloods, Holsteiners and Hanoverians, all warmblood 'breeds', so what else could I call her apart from a Belgian Warmblood?

Why would you want to call her anything else?




Rollin I'll get the name of the book when I'm not lying in bed watching the rain on the window

 

[atropa]

Why would you want to call her anything else?

Well because in your original post you suggested that asking for advice on warmbloods isn't helpful, and to ask according to type instead..

 

[ycbm]

Well because in your original post you suggested that asking for advice on warmbloods isn't helpful, and to ask according to type instead..

Are you asking for advice?


If so, you'll need to tell us if your horse is a lightweight type, a heavyweight type, a good doer type, a poor doer type, a 14 hand type or an 18 hand type, etc, etc.

Do you understand my point now?

 

[atropa]

Are you asking for advice?


If so, you'll need to tell us if your horse is a lightweight type, a heavyweight type, a good doer type, a poor doer type, a 14 hand type or an 18 hand type, etc, etc.

Do you understand my point now?

Ah yes okay, your point makes more sense now. It wasn't particularly clear from your OP to me. Thank you for clarifying

 

[ycbm]

http://www.books-by-isbn.com/90-765...entury-Jacques-van-Leeuwen-90-76574-01-4.html

This is it Rollin. Published 2001 before embryo transfer because they refer to that as being in the future.

It was Werner not Paul Schockemohle, recorded in a long conversation with the head of KWPN and another very important breeder and they discuss the development of the modern warmblood right from cavalry days. Very interesting, and throughout they refer to them as 'sports horse's' first and warmblood mostly only secondarily.

 

[dominobrown]

Ycbm- exactly warmbloods are essentially sport/ performance horses and arent breed to a particular breed standard like other breeds such as fell ponies ehich should be a certain height/ colour etc etc....
Obviously depending on the sport the horses will differ again i.e show jumping/ dressage etc etc. And then there is personal preference of the rider... some people like huge big boned long dressage horses. Others prefer light sharp compact horses etc etc but all can compete well at the top level and therefore all coiukd be considered sport horses.

Tb's are the same to some extent... they are essentially bred to race... flat or jump.... sprint or long distance.... diffferent types will suit different races and courses and then there is personal preference again, short, small big or rangy but all are tbs because at the end of the day most (and sensible) breeders breeding sport horses or racehorses dont give a monkey about colour etc etc they breed for performance.

I suppose all tbs and wbs will all tick certain boxes so csn be typey but the variations within the type can be huge.

Sorry for all the typos but i have written this out 3 times and random letters keep coming up thanks to stupid new tablet....

 

[dibbin]

So I can tell Warmblood snobs that my ISH (⅝ TB and ⅜ ID) is in fact a Warmblood?

 

[Luci07]

So I can tell Warmblood snobs that my ISH (⅝ TB and ⅜ ID) is in fact a Warmblood?

yes! In fact a lot of TB stallions end up being graded into the big warmblood books. French Buffet into the KWPN stud book and also Accondy into the British Hanovarian stud book are just 2 examples.

 

[ycbm]

Definitely. He IS.

 

[ManBearPig]

This is very interesting; I too am somewhat confused by the whole "warmblood" thing. All the breed books I have seem to list blood type as "hot", "cold" or "warm" with most breeds listed as "warm" (presumably because they have both hot and cold in the lineage).
So am I right in thinking that most horses are in fact warmblood types, but that the title "warmblood" is something given by stud books when grading performance horses based on appearance and movement?
Are those photos of the more flat-backed horses (they are lovely, by the way!) more of a traditional warmblood type, as opposed to the performance horses you tend to see today that have the shorter, more rounded back ends?
I apologise if I have completely the wrong end of the stick!

 

[ycbm]

This is very interesting; I too am somewhat confused by the whole "warmblood" thing. All the breed books I have seem to list blood type as "hot", "cold" or "warm" with most breeds listed as "warm" (presumably because they have both hot and cold in the lineage).
So am I right in thinking that most horses are in fact warmblood types, but that the title "warmblood" is something given by stud books when grading performance horses based on appearance and movement?
Are those photos of the more flat-backed horses (they are lovely, by the way!) more of a traditional warmblood type, as opposed to the performance horses you tend to see today that have the shorter, more rounded back ends?
I apologise if I have completely the wrong end of the stick!

Nearly there. A warmblood is any coldblood hotblood cross.

The continent have a number of grading societies that are regarded generally as for warmbloods.

But in fact most of them will register good hotbloods and good coldbloods in order to produce the horses the market wants at the time.

So a horse may hold a passport regarded as a warmblood passport and not be a warmblood.

And horses not passported as 'warmblood' like Irish Sports Horses are warmblood even though they aren't called warmblood.

There, clear as mud ?

 

[Illusion100]

I have a Sport Horse that is TB x ISH x Selle Francais x Holsteiner x Trakehner. I am no expert on breeding but his breeder is and said technically he is a 1/2 bred based on his breeding but has over 50% TB in his genetics. Too confusing for my brain.

So, I regard mine as a type, not a breed, hence I refer to him as a Sport Horse, not a WB as I still stubbornly regard 'true' warmbloods to be a direct cross between a full TB and full Draft.

 

[dominobrown]

An irish sport horse is essentially an irish warmblood

 

[ycbm]

An irish sport horse is essentially an irish warmblood

I did wonder, when they started marketing then as ISH, what, about ten years ago?, why they didn't market them as Irish warmblood. Does anyone know?