Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[ROG]

Hello There Rog,

Please could you help me with my query?

I have a '62 REG AUDI Q3 S LINE QUATTRO (4 WHEEL DRIVE), and a 15'3 WB who weighs approx 500kg max.
I will only be towing only my horse on his own and just me in the car. I am looking at getting a tow bar fitted and a trailer, the question is what type of trailer could I go for, can I get a light enough trailer to not do my trailer test as I passed in Sept 1997. Or do I have to do the test. Just weighing up options at the moment, and any advice you can give would be very much appreciated! I am very concerned that the trailer will push my car down the hill as I have read some horror stories, but before I spend money getting a tow bar and a trailer test, I want to make sure its safe with my car.

1 - B
2 - 2225 KG
3 - 1625KG
4 - 2225 KG
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - UNSURE WHAT TRAILER TO BUY DEPENDENT ON WHAT i CAN TOW, looking at probably an Ifor 505 or a Bateson or Cheval Liberte, but this all depends on what type if any I can tow.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " - TBC

Many Thanks

B licence
Car 2225 GVW
Max trailer plated weight (MAM) will be 1275
2225 + 1275 = 3500 which is the max limit for your licence

IDEA = Bateson Derby weighs 675 empty and can be down plated via contact with Bateson from 1700 to 1275 which leaves a max of 600 for the trailer load

 

[CharJoey]

Ok, thanks. So if I took my test, could I tow an Ifor 505 with my car for example? Or would it be too heavy? Thanks

 

[ROG]

Ok, thanks. So if I took my test, could I tow an Ifor 505 with my car for example? Or would it be too heavy? Thanks

If your max towing capacity is 2225 then the trailer is likely to be about 900/1000 and two 500 horses will be about 1000 so lets say 2000 = well within the 2225 limit

 

[Alibear]

No legal need to replate trailer

Towing capacity 2000
Trailer MAM 2500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 1000

I suspect that some are taking note of the internet MYTH that says the MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the vehicle towing capacity because ... get this ... it has the CAPABILITY of being overloaded ...... well, my car has the CAPABILITY of doing 70 in a 30 limit so perhaps I should be prosectuted every time I am in a limit lower than 70 !!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I'm worrying about that MYTH it's a hard one to kill off! Thank you for confirming.

 

[Destario]

Thanks, I'll let her know, I bet there'll be some 'I told you so' s!

 

[EmmaLou]

Hi Rog, I have just got off the phone to Bateson. Interestingly they said the law has now changed and they are no longer taking into account the plated weight of the trailer, apparently it has proved too complicated and too much work. It would now be the actual weight of car and trailer with load at the time of towing for example if you was to be put on a weight bridge. Have you heard about this? Could be good news for many!?

Hi Rog, I am back again. I called Bateson to place my order this morning. I believe I spoke with Simon Bateson. I am more confused than ever, I needed the trailer to be plated at 1360kg, I have gone for the Deauville which is 860kg unladen so giving me a 500kg capacity. I am only loading a 14hh chunky pony who i believe to be around 460kg but no more than 500kg (I hope).

I have been persuaded to plate the trailer at 1400kg placing me over the combined MAM by 40kg which he says would not be a problem as my actual loaded weights would still be less. He said how its worded seems like i would be illegal but its not. I am utterly confused. This increase is to make sure the trailer doesn't go over its limit.

Can you tell me ROG, what would be implications (slight possibility) that I had the trailer restricted to 1360kg and my pony ended up weighing a little bit more than i thought so going a touch over the plated weight. Or I have the trailer plated beyond my licence MAM limits even though its not actually weighing more. I still think I should still push to have 1360kg but Bateson said trailers can occasionally weigh more than the 860kg advertised so I may only have 460-480kg to play with.
Ultimately I will be getting said pony weighed properly but I am struggling to get him anywhere to weigh him without a trailer.

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog, I am back again. I called Bateson to place my order this morning. I believe I spoke with Simon Bateson. I am more confused than ever, I needed the trailer to be plated at 1360kg, I have gone for the Deauville which is 860kg unladen so giving me a 500kg capacity. I am only loading a 14hh chunky pony who i believe to be around 460kg but no more than 500kg (I hope).

I have been persuaded to plate the trailer at 1400kg placing me over the combined MAM by 40kg which he says would not be a problem as my actual loaded weights would still be less. He said how its worded seems like i would be illegal but its not. I am utterly confused. This increase is to make sure the trailer doesn't go over its limit.

Can you tell me ROG, what would be implications (slight possibility) that I had the trailer restricted to 1360kg and my pony ended up weighing a little bit more than i thought so going a touch over the plated weight. Or I have the trailer plated beyond my licence MAM limits even though its not actually weighing more. I still think I should still push to have 1360kg but Bateson said trailers can occasionally weigh more than the 860kg advertised so I may only have 460-480kg to play with.
Ultimately I will be getting said pony weighed properly but I am struggling to get him anywhere to weigh him without a trailer.

If you only have a B licence and go over the total of the 3500 plated weight limit then you are nor driving in accordance with your licence and will invalidate the insurance which could mean 9 points and the vehicle being seized = BIG SHOCKER !

You can TELL Bateson that giving you false legal information can land them in hot water as well as you

I suggest you copy the whole of this post and EMAIL them with it

 

[L&B]

I posted this separately but then came across this thread and didn't know if anyone could help?

So I have been looking into buying a 3.5t horsebox - for something safe/reliable (&not clocked) it seems impossible with my budget of £5k max.

Considering I would only ever be traveling my 1x 14.1hh pony at 480kg (plus I worry to much about exceeding weights to even consider taking a friends pony along etc, even with a box supposedly 1200kg payload)
It has therefore been suggested by a friend to explore the option of towing a single trailer on my 'B' license.

Towing does not worry me - I have pulled my in-laws caravan plenty & have experience in that way (albeit a very different sensation I expect, to having your precious cargo onboard).

What I don't understand is all of the legalities surrounding plating, MAM, MVW, laden weights etc etc.

I am looking at either a Nissan X Trail 2.2 dci - manual - kerb weight 1515kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.
OR
A Landrover Freelander t4 2.2 - manual - kerb weight 1555kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.

ALONG WITH

An Ifor Williams 401 max gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 740kg.


Burning question -- would I be legal?
Long term, I perhaps would take my B+E but at present (personal circumstances) this isn't possible.
If I have to wait I will, but if I can tow legally with a single trailer; happy days!!
It's all about being safe & legal for me!!

 

[ROG]

I posted this separately but then came across this thread and didn't know if anyone could help?

So I have been looking into buying a 3.5t horsebox - for something safe/reliable (¬ clocked) it seems impossible with my budget of £5k max.

Considering I would only ever be traveling my 1x 14.1hh pony at 480kg (plus I worry to much about exceeding weights to even consider taking a friends pony along etc, even with a box supposedly 1200kg payload)
It has therefore been suggested by a friend to explore the option of towing a single trailer on my 'B' license.

Towing does not worry me - I have pulled my in-laws caravan plenty & have experience in that way (albeit a very different sensation I expect, to having your precious cargo onboard).

What I don't understand is all of the legalities surrounding plating, MAM, MVW, laden weights etc etc.

I am looking at either a Nissan X Trail 2.2 dci - manual - kerb weight 1515kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.
OR
A Landrover Freelander t4 2.2 - manual - kerb weight 1555kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.

ALONG WITH

An Ifor Williams 401 max gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 740kg.


Burning question -- would I be legal?
Long term, I perhaps would take my B+E but at present (personal circumstances) this isn't possible.
If I have to wait I will, but if I can tow legally with a single trailer; happy days!!
It's all about being safe & legal for me!!

The important figure which you have not posted is the vehicle GVW which can be found on the internet if you know the exact model or is the top of the four figures shown on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame - the GVW is also the max permissible weight shown on the V5 keepers form

Once that figure is known then the rest I can help you with very easily

To help you here is a list of xtrail models with their respective GVWs = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/nissan/x-trail/gross-vehicle-weight/

 

[Somanyquestions]

Hello there

I wanted to check i have my numbers in order before towing on a b licence.
Having read through this thread, Rog seems to be the man in the know..
I have an 2004 X trail GMV 2050 and having just weighed it, it actually comes out at 1700kg not the 1525 that has been stated before.
Will be towing an IW 401 which states 770 unladen and will be downplated to 1450 to fall into line with the plated weight requirement not exceeding 3.5t
Horse weighs 610Kg
Breaked weight/towing capacity is 2000kg
if my understanding is right, i will have capacity to carry an additional 350kg in the car and 70Kg in the trailer although this will not be necessary i hope!

is there anything i have missed or does this look legal?
Thanks in advance

 

[ROG]

Hello there

I wanted to check i have my numbers in order before towing on a b licence.
Having read through this thread, Rog seems to be the man in the know..
I have an 2004 X trail GMV 2050 and having just weighed it, it actually comes out at 1700kg not the 1525 that has been stated before.
Will be towing an IW 401 which states 770 unladen and will be downplated to 1450 to fall into line with the plated weight requirement not exceeding 3.5t
Horse weighs 610Kg
Breaked weight/towing capacity is 2000kg
if my understanding is right, i will have capacity to carry an additional 350kg in the car and 70Kg in the trailer although this will not be necessary i hope!

is there anything i have missed or does this look legal?
Thanks in advance

PERFECT & well done for getting all the figures and laws spot on

 

[Somanyquestions]

PERFECT & well done for getting all the figures and laws spot on

great news, thank you very much Rog, much appreciated.

 

[flat3]

It would not matter if the GTW was listed as 4000 for example because the B licence max of 3500 is the vehicle GVW + the plated MAM of the trailer added together

Licence wise you have 1590 to play with in regards to the trailer plated MAM ..... BUT .... actual weight is restricted to the towing capacity of 1350

The load/horse weighs 550 but allowing for a little leeway I would say you need a minimum of 600 for the trailer load

1350 - 600 = 750 max weight for the empty trailer

Bateson Derby weighs 675 empty but is plated at 1700 so would need contact with Bateson to reduce/down plate the MAM to a max of 1590 but I would opt for a down plate to 1400 so that it gives more vehicle options in the future - costs about a tenner with Bateson to do this.
http://www.batesontrailers.com/shop/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/

In virtually all down plating it is up to you yo remove current plate then send it to manufacturer with the money where upon they send you new plate to fix on yourself - metal drill bit and pop rivet gun needed

Another trailer might be the Cheval Liberte gold one which weighs 720 empty but has a plated MAM of 1600
http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/gold-one


If no plate on a trailer then the total of all the tyre load ratings is deemed as the MAM

Sorry to post again after an interval. I've saved my pennies and am looking to buy a Derby soon. As I'm new to towing I've contacted someone locally to give me a lesson when my car and trailer combo is ready to go. He asked for the weights and has said I'm very close to my towing limit, like its something to worry about.

Limit is 1350, trailer is 675 + pony at 550 = 1225, so 125 spare

I just want to double check I'm not cutting it too close before I make the leap?

 

[ROG]

Sorry to post again after an interval. I've saved my pennies and am looking to buy a Derby soon. As I'm new to towing I've contacted someone locally to give me a lesson when my car and trailer combo is ready to go. He asked for the weights and has said I'm very close to my towing limit, like its something to worry about.

Limit is 1350, trailer is 675 + pony at 550 = 1225, so 125 spare

I just want to double check I'm not cutting it too close before I make the leap?

That is fine for licence and weight

If you were near me in Leicester then I would go out with you for FREE - with expenses covered

 

[flat3]

That is fine for licence and weight

If you were near me in Leicester then I would go out with you for FREE - with expenses covered

Thanks, that's great to hear - and I wish I was near Leicester so could take you up on that!

 

[lrw0250]

I'm hoping someone can advise on this one for me. My OH has his B&E test booked for September but I have my fingers crossed that he may be able to take our daughter's lead rein pony to a show next month if we can borrow a suitable trailer so need to see what our max weight on a B licence would be with our towing vehicle.

Mercedes Vito Van
Kerb weight 1818
GVW 2770
GTW 2000

Pony only weighs 250kg. May have the option of either an IW 403, IW 505 or a Bateson.

Thanks

 

[ROG]

I'm hoping someone can advise on this one for me. My OH has his B&E test booked for September but I have my fingers crossed that he may be able to take our daughter's lead rein pony to a show next month if we can borrow a suitable trailer so need to see what our max weight on a B licence would be with our towing vehicle.

Mercedes Vito Van
Kerb weight 1818
GVW 2770
GTW 2000

Pony only weighs 250kg. May have the option of either an IW 403, IW 505 or a Bateson.

Thanks

If the GVW is 2770 then on a B licence the max plated trailer weight is 750kg so no good for any horse trailer

Solution = need a vehicle with lower GVW for B licence towing

PS - GTW is likely to be 4770 with a 2000 towing capacity

 

[Meeko]

Hi, after some info on towing with this vehicle

Mecedes C250

B License
Unlaiden/Kerb Weight - 1505KG
GVW - 2125KG
Braked towing weight - 1800KG
Trailer - Ifor 505

Thank you

 

[ROG]

Hi, after some info on towing with this vehicle

Mecedes C250

B License
Unlaiden/Kerb Weight - 1505KG
GVW - 2125KG
Braked towing weight - 1800KG
Trailer - Ifor 505

Thank you

With a GVW of 2125 that leaves a max trailer plated MAM of 1375 for B towing

HB505 is 905 empty so would need down plating via contact with IW from 2340 to 1375 which will leave a max weight of 470 which can be loaded into the trailer

Solution = need a lighter trailer such as a HB 403 which is 787 empty so down plating that from 1600 to 1375 will leave 588 for trailer load

 

[Meeko]

Thanks ROG, the horse is 538kg so down plating wouldnt help her

Is she legal driving with the trailer empty?

 

[ROG]

Thanks ROG, the horse is 538kg so down plating wouldnt help her

Is she legal driving with the trailer empty?

No because the licence goes on the plated weights not actual weights

With horse at 538 the solution of getting a lighter trailer seems to be the best option as that will leave 50kg clear (588-538=50)

 

[Meeko]

Thanks for all your help, shes planning on doing trailer test

 

[ROG]

Thanks for all your help, shes planning on doing trailer test

She can go out under L plate conditions

 

[Meeko]

What does this mean? (sorry)

 

[ROG]

What does this mean? (sorry)

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving

 

[Meeko]

thanks for all you help

 

[henmother]

Hello Rog , hope you can help me . I've been taking towing lessons from a local company for the last few weeks . I've been struggling with the reverse manoeuvre . Not helped by the fact that my instructor shouts and effs and jeffs at me when I make a mistake . I've just returned from a 5 hour lesson feeling physically and mentally exhausted . He's got me really demotivated and feeling like I'm useless . Problem is , it's my test tomorrow . I've got 3 hrs before my test which is going to be a combination of roadwork and reversing . Seriously considering cancelling rather than failing . Do you have any advice ? Dont think I can cope with being made to feel like I'm useless before my test .

 

[ester]

In lieu of ROG

1) that is awful, what on earth sort of instructor is that, if it is more than a one man band I would complain.

2) The reverse should be able to be pretty formulaic which suits me but not everyone learns like that, see point 1, instructors should be able to deal with that.

3) Go and take the test rather than lose the money, firstly you never know and secondly you have to do the manouveres first so won't be allowed out on the road anyway if they don't think you should be, but whether you do or don't you might get some useful feedback.

4) Whatever the result tomorrow even if you happened to pass go and find a much much better person to have at least a session with so you are more confident.

 

[ROG]

Hello Rog , hope you can help me . I've been taking towing lessons from a local company for the last few weeks . I've been struggling with the reverse manoeuvre . Not helped by the fact that my instructor shouts and effs and jeffs at me when I make a mistake . I've just returned from a 5 hour lesson feeling physically and mentally exhausted . He's got me really demotivated and feeling like I'm useless . Problem is , it's my test tomorrow . I've got 3 hrs before my test which is going to be a combination of roadwork and reversing . Seriously considering cancelling rather than failing . Do you have any advice ? Dont think I can cope with being made to feel like I'm useless before my test .

Cancelling will lose you your test fee of £115 so you might as well use it as a practice

I really feel for you because there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to shout of swear at any candidate with the exception of the word STOP

INSTRUCTOR = in name only as certainly not one in practice

If you paid your money for this then please tell me why you did not cancel after the first day ?

If you do end up needing a retest then go elsewhere

 

[henmother]

Thank you ester and Rog. It's the only local company . I tried pass n go , but they wouldn't allow me to use my own adapted car . There is another chap but he's quite a distance away so thought I'd give this company a go , save on fuel and time . Apparently he "went easy," on me the first lesson so I suppose I'd been suckered in . I've been out on the roads a couple of times with friends in my trailer , both people thought I was safe on roads . Granted they're not instructors but they both tow , and drive all kinds of size vehicles , so I thought that might be a positive start . I think he's just torn my confidence to tatters .
I'll go ahead with test , rather than lose the money , I'll treat it as experience . I'll be giving my hard saved cash to someone else though if /when I need to retake test . I'll probably ask him to start me off from scratch , forget about this horrid experience .Thank you both .