Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[ROG]

Hi everyone, need some help from trailer bofs!

This is all hypothetical as I don't actually have a trailer yet, but want to work out if it's pointless buying one if I've nothing to tow it with.

My dad has a Volkswagen Passat 2l Diesel 4motion estate car which he has said he will tow me in should I get a trailer. The type of trailer i'd be looking at would be an Ifor 505 or similar. My cob weighs around 400kg on a fat day.

Can anyone do the maths for me? I've researched towing weights, kerb weights, percentages, engines etc all day and can't make sense of any of it and just can't seem to get my head around the maths so was hoping someone more worldly could offer some advice!!

The one show i'm hoping to go to should we be ok to tow would be up a fair climb (for about 1 mile) and I'm wondering how well estate cars cope with inclines?

Any/all advice/tips/experience welcome! Am looking into getting a 4x4 and doing my towing test when I turn 21 this August, this is in the interim.

thanks xx

ASSUMING THIS IS THE RIGHT PASSAT
Unladen 1350
GVW 1960
Towing 1700

If that is the right car then you can get a one horse trailer and tow it on a B licence
The IFOR WILLIAMS HB401 single horse trailer is 1600 MAM and 770 unladen
Easy to have that downplated to 1350 MAM and still allow for a load of 580 which is well over what you need for your 400 horse on a fat day!!

If Dad will always be in the car and he has a B+E licence then either he can drive it without it being downplated or you can as a B+E learner

I am assuming you have a B (car) driving licence ???

PS - a car designed to tow 1700 but actually towing a weight of about 1200 will cope very easily

 

[sophiebailey]

ASSUMING THIS IS THE RIGHT PASSAT
Unladen 1350
GVW 1960
Towing 1700

If that is the right car then you can get a one horse trailer and tow it on a B licence
The IFOR WILLIAMS HB401 single horse trailer is 1600 MAM and 770 unladen
Easy to have that downplated to 1500 MAM and still allow for a load of 730 which is well over what you need for your 400 horse on a fat day!!

If Dad will always be in the car and he has a B+E licence then either he can drive it without it being downplated or you can as a B+E learner

I am assuming you have a B (car) driving licence ???

Excuse my ignorance, I really have no idea about cars/trailers.

My dad has been driving since the 70's, so unsure as to which type of license he holds? I have a B license (passed in 2008). Here come the questions;

So is our car unable to tow a two horse trailer?

What is MAM and GVW?

Thank you, again please ignore my extreme stupidity!!

 

[ROG]

So is our car unable to tow a two horse trailer?

What is MAM and GVW?

Thank you, again please ignore my extreme stupidity!!

Firstly, the only stupid question is the one not asked but there are many stupid answers !!!

MAM and GVW are the same thing but the GVW refers to the max weight the car can be when fully loaded and the MAM refers to the max weight the trailer can be when fully loaded

GVW can be found on the internet like I did or on the car registered keeper V5 form, in the car handbook or on a plate fitted to the car ..... somewhere ...

MAM can be found on a plate stuck on the trailer

Towing capacity refers to the maximum ACTUAL (not MAM) weight the car can tow

Most two horse trailers weigh about 900/1000 unladen and have MAMs up to 3500 so as long as a car with a towing capacity of 1700 and a trailer weighing 1000 unladen is not loaded with more than 700 it will be legal on a B+E licence

Has that explained it ok for you? - if not don't be shy - say so and I will try another way of explaining

Remember it is not the person receiving info that is at fault but the person giving it who must be adaptable in the way they give it

 

[sophiebailey]

I think i've got it, from my calculations now, our car wouldn't be able to tow a two horse trailer as;

85% of our car's kerb weight is around 1300kg, so a 1tonne horse trailer and a 0.4 tonne bailey would put us over the safety zone? So would need to look for a single horse trailer to keep us safe?

Think I understand now .......

 

[ROG]

I think i've got it, from my calculations now, our car wouldn't be able to tow a two horse trailer as;

85% of our car's kerb weight is around 1300kg, so a 1tonne horse trailer and a 0.4 tonne bailey would put us over the safety zone? So would need to look for a single horse trailer to keep us safe?

Think I understand now .......

WOOOH !!!
85% thing is for CARAVANS only and that is only advisory

Also the 85% caravan thing refers to the ACTUAL weight difference between the weight of the towing vehicle and the caravan - the unladen weight of the towing vehicle and the max weight of the caravan are only used as they are easy constants

 

[sophiebailey]

Okay great I follow you!! thanks for the help, very much appreciated!

 

[mymissmegan]

Hi guys
Sorry for yet another trailer question
I have a xtrail sve dci 2.2 diesel
On the chassis plate is in order of what's on it
2050
4050
1110
1185
Now, I passed my test six years ago roughly, so would need to take trailer test.
What I would like to know is which trailer I could tow legally without my trailer test.
Please help
Thank you x x x

 

[ROG]

Hi guys
Sorry for yet another trailer question
I have a xtrail sve dci 2.2 diesel
On the chassis plate is in order of what's on it
2050
4050
1110
1185
Now, I passed my test six years ago roughly, so would need to take trailer test.
What I would like to know is which trailer I could tow legally without my trailer test.
Please help
Thank you x x x

With a B licence
YOUR VEHICLE SPECS - I HOPE
Unladen = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing capacity = 2000
First single horse trailer option IFOR HB401
Unladen = 770
MAM = 1600 BUT would need to be downplated to 1450 because 1450+2050=3500 which is the max allowed for B licence towing
That would allow a loading weight of 680 kgs
Cheval liberte single horse trailer
Unladen = 655
MAM = 1400
This could be used as it is and has a loading weight of 745


Those are just two options I know of but there may be more

 

[mymissmegan]

Thank you so much for your reply.
I'm really interested in the hb403.
What does downplated mean? And would iwt be able to do that?

 

[ROG]

Thank you so much for your reply.
I'm really interested in the hb403.
What does downplated mean? And would iwt be able to do that?

HB 403 specs
Unladen = 767
MAM = 1600 but yet again would need downplating to 1450 leaving a loading weight of 683 kgs

Very easy to get a trailer downplated if the manufacturer is still trading like IFOR WILLIAMS - contact us who will sort it out for you by referring you to one of their agents - this may involve a small charge of £30 ish or may be FREE !!

 

[mymissmegan]

Brilliant!!! Thanks rog, and doing that downplating would mean I could drive my horse on my own?
Thanks again x

 

[ROG]

Brilliant!!! Thanks rog, and doing that downplating would mean I could drive my horse on my own?

YES

B licence towing law/rules state that the MAM of the trailer (1450) must be no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (1515) so that is complied with

It also states that the MAM of the trailer (1450) plus the GVW of the towing vehicle (2050) must not add up to more than 3500 so that is complied with

The towing capacity of the towing vehicle (2000) must not be exceeded but the most you should ever be towing legally is 1450 so that is complied with

 

[mymissmegan]

You are a diamond!!
Thank you so much for your help x

 

[Lucy_Ally]

Hi - I am pretty sure that I need to take the B+E test with my combination (I passed in 1998), but thought I would check!

Car: 2003 Kia Sorento diesel auto
Trailer: 2011 Ifor Williams 511
Horse: ~580 kg

I only plan on taking the one horse and have removed partitions. Can I get the 511 down-rated? Would there be any point?

Thank you!

 

[WelshTilly]

Hi

I'm in the process of sorting out my B +E test as I missed having it own my license by 1 month

In the mean time I have a question, I have access to my Husbands Toyota Hilux 08 plate and my Ifor 505 2002 is there any possibility I can down rate the box in the interim to tow my mare 500kg by myself?? This would ease my situation in the mean time ....

Thank you in advance

 

[ROG]

Hi

I'm in the process of sorting out my B +E test as I missed having it own my license by 1 month

In the mean time I have a question, I have access to my Husbands Toyota Hilux 08 plate and my Ifor 505 2002 is there any possibility I can down rate the box in the interim to tow my mare 500kg by myself?? This would ease my situation in the mean time ....

Thank you in advance

So many Hilux models with different specs that I need more info - perhaps you can get these figures from the handbook or the keepers V5 form
Unladen or kerb = .....kgs
GVW = ....kgs
Towing capacity = ....kgs

IFOR 505HB
unladen = 905 kgs
MAM = 2340 kgs


Once I have the specs for the hilux I can give you an answer

 

[ROG]

Hi - I am pretty sure that I need to take the B+E test with my combination (I passed in 1998), but thought I would check!

Car: 2003 Kia Sorento diesel auto
Trailer: 2011 Ifor Williams 511
Horse: ~580 kg

I only plan on taking the one horse and have removed partitions. Can I get the 511 down-rated? Would there be any point?

Thank you!

Having probs getting correct specs for vehicle so please supply correct specs from handbook or keeper V5 form
Unladen or kerb = 2100 guess
GVW = 2600 guess
Towing capacity = 2800 guess

IFOR HB511
Unladen = 1000
MAM = 2700

If those specs are anywhere near correct then downplating would not help to conform to B licence towing rules because 2600 GVW plus the unladen trailer weight of 1000 already puts it over the max 3500 limit

Looks like a B+E test is needed........

 

[ROG]

I have access to my Husbands Toyota Hilux 08 plate

FOUND THIS FOR HILUX
If the specs in that link are correct for your model then they all are about 3000 GVW which means a B licence holder can only tow 750 kgs behind it on a B licence and that would not even cover the empty weight of a horse trailer!!

 

[Lucy_Ally]

Thanks ROG - I thought so from my research, but wanted a second opinion.
GVW is 2640kg, min kerb weight is 2065. Looks like I better get booked in for my test so I don't have to keep relying on my husband!

Cheers
Lucy

 

[ROG]

Thanks ROG - I thought so from my research, but wanted a second opinion.
GVW is 2640kg, min kerb weight is 2065. Looks like I better get booked in for my test so I don't have to keep relying on my husband!

Cheers
Lucy

2640 GVW only allows for a trailer with a max MAM of 860 on a B licence
BUT
There is nothing to stop you driving it as a B+E learner when hubby is in the car if he is over age 21 and has had B+E for 3+ years
L plates front of car and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Then off you go

 

[Lisa2]

Hi

I am legal to tow my horse trailer and have passed my B + E test but wondered if my combination is safe enough as I keep getting told that it's not ideal or that I shouldn't be towing the trailer with this car and should get a bigger 4 x 4. It's making me paranoid about having an accident!

I have a 2008 Toyota Rav 4 2.2 D - GVW 2190, min kerb weight 1595, braked tow capacity 2000kg. I tow a Chevel Liberte 2003 XL double trailer with a MAM of 2000kg and unladen weight of 840. My 16.1 horse weighs 600kg (only ever travel the one) and I just have my tack, self, hay and water. My car copes fine towing but I wondered if you think I am pushing it a bit? I really don't want to have to change my car as it's economical and suits my daily needs but safety comes first. Do you think I would be best changing my car for something bigger? I am fed up of being made to feel like I am endangering my self, horse and others because I don't have a discovery!

Many thanks, Lisa

 

[ROG]

Hi

I am legal to tow my horse trailer and have passed my B + E test but wondered if my combination is safe enough as I keep getting told that it's not ideal or that I shouldn't be towing the trailer with this car and should get a bigger 4 x 4. It's making me paranoid about having an accident!

I have a 2008 Toyota Rav 4 2.2 D - GVW 2190, min kerb weight 1595, braked tow capacity 2000kg. I tow a Chevel Liberte 2003 XL double trailer with a MAM of 2000kg and unladen weight of 840. My 16.1 horse weighs 600kg (only ever travel the one) and I just have my tack, self, hay and water. My car copes fine towing but I wondered if you think I am pushing it a bit? I really don't want to have to change my car as it's economical and suits my daily needs but safety comes first. Do you think I would be best changing my car for something bigger? I am fed up of being made to feel like I am endangering my self, horse and others because I don't have a discovery!

Many thanks, Lisa

You are towing an actual weight of about 1500+ with a vehicle that is designed to tow an actual weight of 2000
If the manufacturer that made that vehicle thought towing an actual weight of 2000 was not safe then that figure would be lower because they do not want to be sued by motorists

If you do not like the stability of the trailer then you can go for one up to 3500 MAM as long as when it is loaded the actual weight does not exceed 2000 kgs

 

[ROG]

I am legal to tow my horse trailer and have passed my B + E test
I have a 2008 Toyota Rav 4 2.2 D - GVW 2190, min kerb weight 1595, braked tow capacity 2000kg. I tow a Chevel Liberte 2003 XL double trailer with a MAM of 2000kg and unladen weight of 840. My 16.1 horse weighs 600kg

This may be of interest to those with just a B licence .....

By changing the trailer to a Chevel Liberte 1003 XL and having it downplated from 1400 to 1300, the total weight being towed would be 655(trailer)+600(horse)+40(water etc?)=1295

Perfectly legal for B licence towing
2190+1300=3490 so under 3500 limit
1300 is less than 1595 so complies with that rule

 

[ROG]

Found this useful bit of info/VIDEO -

Take a look at this:
Horse Trailer Service with The Trailer Medic

Useful when checking out a trailer if intending to buy one

 

[ROG]

YES

Passing C1 does not give you a '+E' which is the entitlement at the end of a category which gives you towing entitlement

That sentence is not strictly correct because there are allowances to tow with a B licence and all categories can tow a trailer of 750 kgs MAM

If you pass the C1+E test then that will also give you B+E but only for as long as the medical remains current
If the medical, which you already have until age 45, is not kept current then you lose C1+E and B+E

Passing the B+E test gives you B+E for as long as your B licence remains valid so generally for life

If you have C as well as C1 then you could go for the C+E test

NOTE: - for those now considering taking the C1 training & test - forget it - take the C training & test instead as they both cost roughly the same and the age is now 18 for all LGV categories
Drivers with B licences can go direct for C and then C+E

18 year old artic drivers ..... Hmmmm .......

The bit in blue was from information given by the DfT & DVLA but they have now said otherwise and on getting info from post 1997 cat B licence holders I find this new info to be correct

I asked this question -
Driver passes B in 2000, C in 2004 & CE in 2005
What expiry date is shown for the BE gained by getting the CE?


DVLA Email donotreply.contactcentre@dvla.gsi.gov.uk to me

show details 09:22 (44 minutes ago)

Dear Mr *****
Thank you for your email received on 21/3/12. Your email reference number is 880046.

I can confirm that the expiry date of the category BE will be the same as the category B. Both entitlements remain valid until the day before the licence holder's 70th birthday, and the dates for this will be shown on the reverse of the photocard.

I am unable to release the exact dates via email for security reasons, but if you would like this confirmed then please contact our Customer Enquiry Unit on the number below:

Tel: 0300 790 6801
Opening Times:
Lines are open Monday to Friday 8.00am to 7.00pm and Saturday 8.00am to 2.00pm.


Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our Reply Form or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser:

https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/directgov/en/reply_form_drivers.html


When filling in the form the email reference number 880046 will be required.

Regards

A Prichard

Customer Enquiries Group

DVLA

 

[ROG]

With the information given in the post above, for those who have passed the C1 (or C) LGV test but have not got B+E, the best way to get B+E would be to get C1+E (or C+E) to obtain a lifelong B+E.

 

[ROG]

HHO THREAD ON THE B+E TRAILER TOWING TEST
That might be useful to some on here

 

[Cello_song]

Hi There

I'm hoping you can settle a wee disagreement between my Dad and I! He thinks I am legal to tow this set up with L plates on and him, my mum or my husband sitting with me (all have pre 97 licenses).

After reading some of this thread, I think he is wrong and that I am not legal - I think I need to have the trailer down plated and then I could drive with one of them babysitting me?

Vehicle is a Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 CRTD GSI towing a 505. I think the problem is that 2 is less than 5?

1. B
2. 1823 kg
3. 2550 kg
4. 2200 kg
5. 2340 kg
6. 905 kg

What do you think?

 

[ROG]

Hi There

I'm hoping you can settle a wee disagreement between my Dad and I! He thinks I am legal to tow this set up with L plates on and him, my mum or my husband sitting with me (all have pre 97 licenses).

After reading some of this thread, I think he is wrong and that I am not legal - I think I need to have the trailer down plated and then I could drive with one of them babysitting me?

Vehicle is a Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 CRTD GSI towing a 505. I think the problem is that 2 is less than 5?

1. B
2. 1823 kg
3. 2550 kg
4. 2200 kg
5. 2340 kg
6. 905 kg

What do you think?

Time to eat humble pie
That set up would never be legal for a B licence holder out on their own unless the trailer was downplated to 950 (950+2550=3500) and would leave a load of only 45kgs

HOWEVER, you have a B+E provisional on the paper part of your licence so with a supervising driver aged 21+ (think your dad might be) and has held a B+E for over 3 years (dad might just have had it that long) with L plates fitted to front of vehicle and rear of trailer as well as correct insurance for a B+E learner (call the insurer) ...... YOU ARE LEGAL to tow it fully loaded

PS - as the towing capacity is 2200 but the trailer is plated at 2340 then make sure the actual weight is never more than 2200

 

[Cello_song]

Excellent, humble pie is good as it means the pony can go to shows! Just need to ring my insurance company on Mon...

Thanks very much for your advice