Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[ROG]

My car is a 56 plate Kia Sorenta 2.5 manual diesel. I think therefore the following details are correct for it:

Towing capacity of car: 2800kg
Vehicle kerb weight: 2056kg
GVW of car: ??

My trailer is a Thoroughbred trailer. Not many of them about. It has been on the weigh bridge and is 900kg. There is no plate. Therefore:

Trailer weight: 900kg
Horse: 450kg
Licence: I passed after 1997.

OK Lets start with what we can find ...
B licence - with B+E provisional
http://www.carsplusplus.com/specs2011/kia_sorento_25_crdi_lx.php
CAR
Unladen 2056
GVW 2600
Towing capacity 2800
TRAILER
Unladen 900
MAM - need TYRE LOAD RATINGS

ILLEGAL on a B licence
reason
A GVW of 2600 only leaves a MAX trailer MAM of 900 and it already weighs that empty !!

You can have a supervising driver if you use your B+E provisional along with the usual rules that surround doing that

 

[Millie's Mum]

Thanks for info.

My understanding was that I could drive up to a combined weight of 3.5 tonne. Is this wrong then?

It is all so confusing!

 

[ROG]

Thanks for info.

My understanding was that I could drive up to a combined weight of 3.5 tonne. Is this wrong then?

It is all so confusing!

The combined weight of 3500 is the GVW of the vehicle which in this case is 2600 plus the plated MAM or tyre load ratings total of the trailer

You already have 2600 so that leaves 900 - that 900 is the maximum weight the trailer can be when loaded to its maximum

Has that explained it ok?

 

[Millie's Mum]

Thank you, yes that makes sense. I thought that it was the unladen weight that was taken into consideration so 2065 (car) + 900 (trailer) + 450 (horse) = 3415.

Also, is it the case then that the car/trailer/horse combination is legal, it is just my licence that is the issue?

 

[ROG]

Thank you, yes that makes sense. I thought that it was the unladen weight that was taken into consideration so 2065 (car) + 900 (trailer) + 450 (horse) = 3415.

Also, is it the case then that the car/trailer/horse combination is legal, it is just my licence that is the issue?

It is the licence which is the main issue

HOWEVER I can say this ...
With that vehicle the trailer cannot have an actual weight of more than 2800 because that is the towing capacity limit
The tyre load ratings need looking at to make sure that the 900 plus the 450 of the horse is not exceeding their limit - I doubt they are but its worth checking

 

[waterlily]

Hi,
Im getting a bit confused at the moment looking at cars able to tow my Bateson Deauville (1998 model)
The trailer plate says gross weight 2300kg

I've done my B+E test

I only have 1 horse but would like to be able to take 2 if needed (so say a fairly generous 600kg/horse)

What weight would I need the car to be able to tow?
I've been looking at Mitsubishi Shogun Sports which have a 2800kg towing capacity. Does this mean that the weight of the trailer and its contents can be up to 2800kg?...but because the trailer GW is 2300kg is that the max it can take?

Do I have a limit on total weight with the B+E test for the car and trailer/contents combined or is this 7.5t?

Hope you can help, I think I'm getting more in a muddle the more I look at it all

 

[ROG]

Hi,
Im getting a bit confused at the moment looking at cars able to tow my Bateson Deauville (1998 model)
The trailer plate says gross weight 2300kg

I've done my B+E test

I only have 1 horse but would like to be able to take 2 if needed (so say a fairly generous 600kg/horse)

What weight would I need the car to be able to tow?
I've been looking at Mitsubishi Shogun Sports which have a 2800kg towing capacity. Does this mean that the weight of the trailer and its contents can be up to 2800kg?...but because the trailer GW is 2300kg is that the max it can take?

Do I have a limit on total weight with the B+E test for the car and trailer/contents combined or is this 7.5t?

Hope you can help, I think I'm getting more in a muddle the more I look at it all

With a B+E licence the max vehicle weight can be 3500 GVW and the max trailer weight can be 3500 MAM

You must not exceed the trailer MAM 2300 or the towing capacity 2800 so the lower figure is the one to go by which in this case is the 2300

Your horse weighs 600 so the empty trailer cannot weigh more than 1700 which is so very unlikely as most tend to weigh between 655 and 1100

In the future you might get a trailer with a MAM of 3500 and in that case the max it can actually weigh (empty trailer plus load) is 2800

Has that helped?

 

[waterlily]

Yes that's great thanks, so basically whatever car I get (still a bit undecided) needs to have a towing weight of 2300kg minimum to be able to tow the max my trailer is capable of.
Gives me a bit more choice as I was just going for the highest weight I could find!
Thank you for the quick reply, very grateful

 

[ROG]

so basically whatever car I get (still a bit undecided) needs to have a towing weight of 2300kg minimum to be able to tow the max my trailer is capable of.

You got it

 

[coss]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox Guide low res.pdf << does page 18 put a different spin on things?
ie.. its not the potential max weight but the actual weight?

On another note - out of interest as i can't afford a horsebox right now anyway...
Are there any horseboxes that can be towed with a honda CR-V 2005 model.Have read in some places that the towing capacity is 1500lb (~680kg) and 1500kg (3300lb) elsewhere... i believe that is unbraked and braked trailers though. Would a single horsebox be able to be towed. And would it require the B+E category?

 

[ROG]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox Guide low res.pdf << does page 18 put a different spin on things?
ie.. its not the potential max weight but the actual weight?

On another note - out of interest as i can't afford a horsebox right now anyway...
Are there any horseboxes that can be towed with a honda CR-V 2005 model.Have read in some places that the towing capacity is 1500lb (~680kg) and 1500kg (3300lb) elsewhere... i believe that is unbraked and braked trailers though. Would a single horsebox be able to be towed. And would it require the B+E category?

That PDF link is a good find and says exactly what I did.

Honda CRV - http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/cr-v/fullspecification/
If that is the correct model then these are the specs -
KERB 1643 so unladen would be a little higher but not by much
GVW 2050
Towing capacity 1500

You can tow a trailer on a B licence providing the trailer is not plated at more than 1450 (1450+2050=3500)

The cheval xl trailer is plated at 1400 with an unladen weight of 655 so you can load 745 into it
OR
The IFOR HB401 trailer can be downplated from 1600 to 1450 and it has an unladen weight of 770 so 680 can be loaded into it

 

[coss]

thank you

 

[becca1305]

Any horse box law/road experts on here?

What exactly is the law regarding travelling passengers in the living area of a horse box? I found this :

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/travelling-in-horseboxes.pdf

but it claims to be an interpretation of the law. Are there any others?

Very confused, would just like to know if its legal or not! Thanks

 

[ROG]

Any horse box law/road experts on here?

What exactly is the law regarding travelling passengers in the living area of a horse box? I found this :

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/travelling-in-horseboxes.pdf

but it claims to be an interpretation of the law. Are there any others?

Very confused, would just like to know if its legal or not! Thanks

From that link -

Some larger coachbuilt horseboxes have a separate accommodation area. Although it is not specifically illegal to travel in this accommodation area, you should bear in mind that this area would not have been specifically designed for use when travelling and Regulation 100 of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986 No. 1078) may apply. In summary, this regulation requires that:
a motor vehicle, and all its parts and accessories;
the number of passengers carried, and the manner in which any passengers are carried in or on a vehicle; and
the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of a vehicle,
to be at all times such that no danger is caused, or is likely to be caused, to any person in or on a vehicle or on a road.

That means each case will be taken on its own merits

For a definitive on one then take it to the nearest VOSA station and let them decide and get their decision in writing

 

[ultimateimages]

something a little different - how do the event photographers (like me) stand when pulling their exhibition trailers ?

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Licence (pre 97) BE
2) unladen weight of vehicle - 2073
3) not sure
4) tow capacity - 2800kg
5) Plated weight 2700
6) ex works weight 1500

do i need to visit a weighbridge and keep that with me

 

[ROG]

something a little different - how do the event photographers (like me) stand when pulling their exhibition trailers ?

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Licence (pre 97) BE
2) unladen weight of vehicle - 2073
3) not sure
4) tow capacity - 2800kg
5) Plated weight 2700
6) ex works weight 1500

do i need to visit a weighbridge and keep that with me

The fact that is an exhibition trailer or not makes no difference to the plated MAM but may do to the unladen weight if constructed as non removable panels etc

As you have a B+E licence then we need not be concerned with the B towing rules

That means if the trailer when put on a weighbridge does not actually weigh more than 2700 then it will be legal but you must also make sure it and the towing vehicle do not weigh more than any GTW (gross train weight) if there is one listed for your vehicle

An actual weight of 2700 is well within the actual weight towing capacity for your vehicle of 2800 so thats ok

 

[ultimateimages]

The fact that is an exhibition trailer or not makes no difference to the plated MAM but may do to the unladen weight if constructed as non removable panels etc

As you have a B+E licence then we need not be concerned with the B towing rules

That means if the trailer when put on a weighbridge does not actually weigh more than 2700 then it will be legal but you must also make sure it and the towing vehicle do not weigh more than any GTW (gross train weight) if there is one listed for your vehicle

An actual weight of 2700 is well within the actual weight towing capacity for your vehicle of 2800 so thats ok

Many thanks, much appreciated confirmed what i thought, and before the season starts then a trip to the weighbridge is in order just to make sure.

I had heard rumours that the new eu directives would trip me up esp with regards tacho and O license, but couldnt find anything definitive. day job is sitting in the office processing pics, little or no driving done (with the exception of going to the yard)

 

[ROG]

I had heard rumours that the new eu directives would trip me up esp with regards tacho and O license, but couldnt find anything definitive.

Now we get onto a different aspect to which I only have partial knowledge of

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing ..... but I'll try to help

From what I can accertain, if you are using this trailer for business/commercial purposes and the total GVW/MAM add up to more than 3500, which in your case they do, then you come into tacho and O licence regs

So the question - is this a business/commercial venture?

 

[ultimateimages]

guess that comes down to the definition of commercial/business. the trailer itself doesn't carry any stock for sale, but without it i would struggle to sell the images.

the tow vehicle carries the stock / revenue generated

 

[ROG]

guess that comes down to the definition of commercial/business. the trailer itself doesn't carry any stock for sale, but without it i would struggle to sell the images.

the tow vehicle carries the stock / revenue generated

That would be a business commercial venture using that set up

The trailer is your advertising platform for the stock you sell for profit

I assume you go further than 50 km ??
EU REGS ARTICLE 13 exemptions from tacho regs
(d) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used:

— for carrying materials, equipment or machinery for
the driver's use in the course of his work.

These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 kilometre
radius from the base of the undertaking, and on
condition that driving the vehicles does not constitute
the driver's main activity;

I think you will need to have a tacho fitted, conform to the EU driver regs and need an O licence
If so, then if you do a mon to fri job you will only be able to use that set up one day every other weekend

As I previously stated - I am not the expert on this

 

[perfect11s]

guess that comes down to the definition of commercial/business. the trailer itself doesn't carry any stock for sale, but without it i would struggle to sell the images.

the tow vehicle carries the stock / revenue generated

I would think you dont need an o licence but may need a tachograph , best bet is a van under 3.5 gross instead of your trailer then non of this applies...

 

[ultimateimages]

Again many thanks for taking the time to dig into this

yep more than 50km - i think home to Dauntsey/hartpury/barbury is around 130miles.....

1 day every other weekend.....

well it typically travels on a friday, and then back on a sunday, most is 2 hrs each way.

But i am out EVERY weekend, in April i'm doing Goring 31st/1st April, Larkhill 7/8th, Ascot u wychwood 14/15th, Hambledon 19/20/21st, MK 24/25th.

think that works out to more than 1 every other weekend, but i would be well under on actual driving hours as i work from home during the week.

 

[ROG]

Again many thanks for taking the time to dig into this

yep more than 50km - i think home to Dauntsey/hartpury/barbury is around 130miles.....

1 day every other weekend.....

well it typically travels on a friday, and then back on a sunday, most is 2 hrs each way.

But i am out EVERY weekend, in April i'm doing Goring 31st/1st April, Larkhill 7/8th, Ascot u wychwood 14/15th, Hambledon 19/20/21st, MK 24/25th.

think that works out to more than 1 every other weekend, but i would be well under on actual driving hours as i work from home during the week.

If you can get in a full unbroken 45 hours without DRIVING OR WORKING then fine but from what you said you will be working/selling when set up on site !!

 

[ultimateimages]

If you can get in a full unbroken 45 hours without DRIVING OR WORKING then fine but from what you said you will be working/selling when set up on site !!

well that would put a spanner in the works then

with no easy solution

 

[ROG]

well that would put a spanner in the works then

with no easy solution

Do you go to these events on your own?

 

[ultimateimages]

essentially yes, the other staff (photographers and sales) turn up on the day, i go the day before and setup, test, check walk courses etc

 

[ROG]

essentially yes, the other staff (photographers and sales) turn up on the day, i go the day before and setup, test, check walk courses etc

I was hoping that someone would be in the vehicle when you were driving to and from the venue so an alternative could be found but it seems not

 

[imafluffybunny]

Can I confirm that it is ok to drive a 4x4 with horsebox on a B licence as long as you have someone with the B+E licence in the passenger seat? My insurance company are happy that I am covered providing that I am driving under the provisional licence legally.
Can I carry a horse under the provisional licence?
I did sit my B+E test a few years ago, got 2 minors and completely messed up the reverse as I panicked, been too scared to sit it again!!!!

 

[ultimateimages]

I was hoping that someone would be in the vehicle when you were driving to and from the venue so an alternative could be found but it seems not

i may have found a solution in te o license regs

in that an o license is not requited if towing with a "dual purpose" vehicle

and another one that states
vehicles constructed or adapted for carrying passenges and their effects (any trailer) and being used for that purpose.

this last one might not fit if i'm driving alone, but i'm happy that the first exemption fits the bill.

Interestingly i was at the Berkshire college of agriculture yesterday for the National Pony Society(NPS) equine careers day , giving a presentation on equine photography, and they had a MP there who was a former chairperson of the NPS, so i bent her ear about this and how darn difficult the eu regs are making all this, and why cant there be a simple exception for self employed or SME. She has promised to take this up the the transport minister and get back to me....i wont hold my breath

 

[ROG]

Can I confirm that it is ok to drive a 4x4 with horsebox on a B licence as long as you have someone with the B+E licence in the passenger seat? My insurance company are happy that I am covered providing that I am driving under the provisional licence legally.
Can I carry a horse under the provisional licence?
I did sit my B+E test a few years ago, got 2 minors and completely messed up the reverse as I panicked, been too scared to sit it again!!!!

Supervised = yes - must have held B+E for 3+ years and be over age 21 - pre 97 drivers are ok to do this

You can tow loaded when under supervision