Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[justjaz]

Gotta be honest here - these are issue I have very little knowledge of BUT ...

If the manufacturer has stated a max for them then it is likely that any driver not conforming could be prosecuted under vehicle safety legislation in the same way as exceeding the towing capacity

I thought as much....just noseweight's aren't much talked about in horsey circles (I have caravanning in-laws though!).

Thanks for your help. Will add another column to my car selection spreasheet then!

 

[ROG]

I thought as much....just noseweight's aren't much talked about in horsey circles (I have caravanning in-laws though!).

Thanks for your help. Will add another column to my car selection spreasheet then!

Trailer noseweights are just as important no matter what the trailer is but it seems that the balance is generally better with non caravans perhaps because people tend not to spread the load as well in them

 

[ROG]

so my daughter now wants to get out and about with her pony and start showing, so now i need to do the maths and see how best to present this to hubby!!

i passed my drivers test in 97 but after the change in licence entitlement.

so am i right in thinkingi can still tow provided the combind weight is less than 3500kg??

i have been looking on internet for some trailers- unfortunatly were looking at cheap for now, very few ads state the weight of the trailer- can someone give me an idication of weight for a 2 horse trailer- older style of rice trailer


so if we have a freelander that weighs 2000kg and a pony that weighs 400kg, then if the trailer is less than 1100kg would i be ok to tow without the seperate test??


if anyone with older cheaper trailers would be willing to post the trailer type and weight then i'd really appreciate it, so when im browsing the ads i'd have an idea as to what to look for.

thanks for any advice

Please post the GVW of the freelander and the plated MAM of the trailer as those are the two which must be added to gether and be under a total of 3500

 

[ROG]

Re B licence towing with a freelander

Just looked at the GVW of freelanders and it seems most are 2505 kgs

That being the case then the maximum trailer MAM (the most it can weigh when fully loaded) is only 995 kgs

As the lightest single horse trailer is 655 kgs unladen/empty then that only leaves 340 kgs for a horse!!

 

[Absolute_Shambles]

Hi Rog,

I've read your thread, and your ever-so helpful advice but I wonder if you can set me straight.

I know I will need to get a B+E license and that is fine, but my question is about the vehicle really.

I have just bought a 2007 VW passat estate 2.0 TDI 140ps. It can tow 1,800kg.

1. Am I right in saying that kerb weights are only a guide?
2. Am I right in saying that I do not need to worry that my vehicle might be illegal in any way due to Nose weights? Only if it is balanced incorrectly?
3. Am I OK to tow one 450kg horse on an average 950kg trailer if I get it downplated to 1,800kg by the manufacturer?

And have I missed anything at all with regards to weights or the suitability of the vehicle to tow occasionally?

I've been going round and round working this out and my brain can no longer handle it!

 

[Absolute_Shambles]

LICENCE
B+E
IS THIS YOUR FREELANDER ? - if yes....
Kerb 1785
GVW 2505
Towing max 2000 (actual weight)
YOUR TRAILER
Unladen 1100
MAM 3200
HORSE/WEIGHT 600 in case of extra apples

Load horse in trailer and it actually weighs 1700 (1100+600=1700) which still leaves another 300 that you can load into the trailer due to the towing limit of 2000

So yes, on a B+E licence that is legal

For others wondering - no good for B licence towing as the high GVW of 2505 only leaves a max trailer MAM of 995 kgs

Rog,
I was told that the trailer weight capacity cannot exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle? And that was in all cases? Thats why I am asking about downplating as my passat can only two 1800kg, but the smaller lighter trailers have a weight capacity of 2,000kg.

Help! So confused!

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog,

I've read your thread, and your ever-so helpful advice but I wonder if you can set me straight.

I know I will need to get a B+E license and that is fine, but my question is about the vehicle really.

I have just bought a 2007 VW passat estate 2.0 TDI 140ps. It can tow 1,800kg.

1. Am I right in saying that kerb weights are only a guide?
2. Am I right in saying that I do not need to worry that my vehicle might be illegal in any way due to Nose weights? Only if it is balanced incorrectly?
3. Am I OK to tow one 450kg horse on an average 950kg trailer if I get it downplated to 1,800kg by the manufacturer?

And have I missed anything at all with regards to weights or the suitability of the vehicle to tow occasionally?

I've been going round and round working this out and my brain can no longer handle it!

1 - yes, nothing in law on them - but they are slightly more than unladen weights which do have legal status

2 - nose weights are a safety issue and are covered in law under C&U regs

3 - this will be a longer answer...
Firstly, on a B+E licence there is no need to downplate anything

Now lets see if this would be OK for a B licence ....
IS THIS YOUR CAR?
If it is then clicking the dimensions tab gives....
Kerb 1715
GVW 2140
towing 1800

Your trailer - what is it?
I can say this ..... For a 500 kg load/horse...
You would need a trailer plated at 1360 kgs maximum (1360+2140=3500) with a maximum unladen/empty weight of 860 kgs (860+500=1360)

So if that is your car and you can get a trailer with those weights which may mean downplating by the manufacturer (providing there are still in business) then that would be legal for B licence towing

 

[ROG]

Rog,
I was told that the trailer weight capacity cannot exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle? And that was in all cases? Thats why I am asking about downplating as my passat can only two 1800kg, but the smaller lighter trailers have a weight capacity of 2,000kg.

Help! So confused!

OH NO!!! - the MYTH has resurfaced again

Seriously, this is an internet myth which many are now starting to believe

There is nothing in law or any other official rules that states the trailer MAM cannot be more than the towing capacity of the vehicle
The towing capacity is set by the manufacturer for the power to actual weight being towed so that the vehicle can safely cope with it
Towing capacity itself has no legal bearing but if exceeded can be used to prosecute under vehicle safety laws
Towing capacity refers to the ACTUAL weight of the trailer and its load, not what the 'potential' of the trailer being fully loaded could be

I hope that has solved the confusion and please ask anyone else who says it to you to provide the law which says so

 

[ROG]

OOPS - apologies - how rude of me

Absolute_Shambles
Foal
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2

WELCOME

 

[Absolute_Shambles]

1 - yes, nothing in law on them - but they are slightly more than unladen weights which do have legal status

2 - nose weights are a safety issue and are covered in law under C&U regs

3 - this will be a longer answer...
Firstly, on a B+E licence there is no need to downplate anything

Now lets see if this would be OK for a B licence ....
IS THIS YOUR CAR?
If it is then clicking the dimensions tab gives....
Kerb 1715
GVW 2140
towing 1800

Your trailer - what is it?
I can say this ..... For a 500 kg load/horse...
You would need a trailer plated at 1360 kgs maximum (1360+2140=3500) with a maximum unladen/empty weight of 860 kgs (860+500=1360)

So if that is your car and you can get a trailer with those weights which may mean downplating by the manufacturer (providing there are still in business) then that would be legal for B licence towing

Every forum needs a Rog! Thank you so so much. Yes that is the spec of the vehicle, I do not have a trailer yet so I have the flexibility it seems. Sorry point 1 was supposed to read "Does the 85% guide not matter as much for horse trailers as it does for caravans due to the difference in weight between a horse and a caravan?"

I thought it was a strange that having done all my research I had never come across this rule on any government website, but there are still loads of sites that say things like this;

Check that the Trailer Gross Weight does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle.
And this is from the National Trailer Towing Association's website
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/preparing/preparing.aspx

If I went for my B+E I'm not going to be turned away for having a trailer which exceeds the MAM of the car? But if I stayed on the B license I would need to downplate the trailer to be legal? Or am I getting gross weight with MAM confused?

Thank you for the warm welcome and well done on a great thread once again.

 

[ROG]

Every forum needs a Rog! Thank you so so much. Yes that is the spec of the vehicle, I do not have a trailer yet so I have the flexibility it seems. Sorry point 1 was supposed to read "Does the 85% guide not matter as much for horse trailers as it does for caravans due to the difference in weight between a horse and a caravan?"

I thought it was a strange that having done all my research I had never come across this rule on any government website, but there are still loads of sites that say things like this;

Check that the Trailer Gross Weight does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle.
And this is from the National Trailer Towing Association's website
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/preparing/preparing.aspx

If I went for my B+E I'm not going to be turned away for having a trailer which exceeds the MAM of the car? But if I stayed on the B license I would need to downplate the trailer to be legal? Or am I getting gross weight with MAM confused?

Thank you for the warm welcome and well done on a great thread once again.

Check that the Trailer Gross Weight does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle.
That is correct - in this case gross weight means actual weight and not gross vehicle weight (GVW) or Maximum authorised mass (MAM)
It is the use of the words gross weight which confuses
The NTTA would have been better saying - Check that the empty Trailer Weight plus the Load does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle.

85% for new caravanners is recommended as caravans are huge empty containers of air which can get blown all over the place if not properly controlled

If I went for my B+E I'm not going to be turned away for having a trailer which exceeds the MAM of the car?
You will not get turned away because that is legal

But if I stayed on the B license I would need to downplate the trailer to be legal?
In most. not all, cases - yes - depends what vehicle and trailer you have but in your case with a car GVW of 2140 then they will need downplating because the lowest I know of is 1400 and you need 1360 or less for the trailer MAM

Or am I getting gross weight with MAM confused?
Those words gross weight on their own can be confusing
GVW or Gross Vehicle Weight is not the same as gross weight
Gross Weight on its own means the total or actual weight that it is at the time
NETT/actual weight of the trailer and the NETT/actual weight of the load add up to the GROSS/actual weight
GVW and MAM are the same thing

 

[Absolute_Shambles]

Thank you Rog. Very helpful, and I hope it helps other people in a similar predicament.

In conclusion:

To stay on a B license I need to downplate a trailer to 1360MAM to be within the 3500kg rule.

When I have a B+E license the trailer does not need to be downplated for MAM but the weight of the trailer cannot exceed the towing limit of the car, in my case 1800kg and I need to keep within the towing limit of the car for my load. So i could have 2 small ponies (350kg) in one trailer when I pass the B+E certificate.

 

[ROG]

Thank you Rog. Very helpful, and I hope it helps other people in a similar predicament.

In conclusion:

To stay on a B license I need to downplate a trailer to 1360MAM to be within the 3500kg rule.

When I have a B+E license the trailer does not need to be downplated for MAM but the ACTUAL weight of the trailer AND THE LOAD cannot exceed the towing limit of the car, in my case 1800kg and I need to keep within the towing limit of the car for my load. So i could have 2 small ponies (350kg) in one trailer when I pass the B+E certificate.

ADDED BITS IN YOUR QUOTE
350x2=700 plus empty weight of trailer must not be more than 1800 and the trailer MAM needs to be at least 700+empty trailer weight

 

[tallyho!]

Hi ROG!

Thinking about towing with my A4 avant with a max towing weight (braked) of 1900kgs. My trailer MAM is 1905kgs. I'm 5kgs out, and I know you said there is no law against it... but still dont want to get into trouble. How does one go about downplating trailers?

(Long story, the patrol is needed elsewhere!)

t!

 

[ROG]

Thinking about towing with my A4 avant with a max towing weight (braked) of 1900kgs. My trailer MAM is 1905kgs. I'm 5kgs out, guess I still need to downplate... how does one go about downplating trailers?

IS THIS YOUR CAR? - if it is....
Kerb 1645
GVW 2120
towing 1900

B licence towing = max trailer plated MAM of 1380 kgs (1380+2120=3500)

B+E licence towing = max trailer plated MAM 3500 but max actual weight of trailer when loaded is 1900 (towing capacity)

If I got wrong specs/dimensions for your car then please give correct info

Downplating is easy but only if the trailer manufacturer is still in business
Just call them to arrange for it to be done
It is usually FREE or for a tiny admin cost

 

[tallyho!]

Yes thats pretty much it on the specs. Thanks ROG!

 

[ROG]

Yes thats pretty much it on the specs. Thanks ROG!

Good guess on my part

max towing weight (braked) of 1900kgs. My trailer MAM is 1905kgs. I'm 5kgs out, guess I still need to downplate

Just noticed what you said here....

A trailer does not need to be downplated to match a lower towing capacity

Trailers only need downplating to meet the requirements for B licence towing

Lets assume that the towing capacity for your Audi was 1300 and not 1900.
You can still have a plated trailer of 1380 MAM but the actual weight when loaded cannot be more than 1300

 

[ROG]

I know some who asked questions on this thread were after a second hand IFOR HB401 single horse trailer for B licence towing so ....

 

[tallyho!]

Good guess on my part



Just noticed what you said here....

A trailer does not need to be downplated to match a lower towing capacity

Trailers only need downplating to meet the requirements for B licence towing

Lets assume that the towing capacity for your Audi was 1300 and not 1900.
You can still have a plated trailer of 1380 MAM but the actual weight when loaded cannot be more than 1300

*bulb lights up in head*

I see, so I don't have to mess about then since I have my BE. I am so relieved about that as I was having a serious argument with my poor father about who needed the 4 x 4 the most.

Doh! For me and, thank you so much for the explanation ROG.

 

[MrsMozart]

Hello

I've read a lot of the thread - would have read all of it, but the numbers were sending my head fuzzy!

We have a 2001 Disco 2 TD5.

We have a large, very old, very refurbished trailer - no plates on it anywhere.

We (D and I) passed our car tests back when Adam was a lad.

Neither of us have taken any other tests.

D1 is learning to drive. When she has passed her car driving test, and gained experience, she would like to start towing.

Can she then use my Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer guven that it's a heavy rig? Obviously will need to take the test, but can she practice with either the D or me with her?

We're also looking at lorries. I wanted a 7.5t, but I know there are rules around age/tests/3.5t/7.5t, but don't know what they are! Please shed light on my confused and rapidly becoming addled brain

P.S. I was considering her making use of the Disco and Hugh, and me using the lorry

 

[ROG]

Hello

I've read a lot of the thread - would have read all of it, but the numbers were sending my head fuzzy!

We have a 2001 Disco 2 TD5.

We have a large, very old, very refurbished trailer - no plates on it anywhere.

We (D and I) passed our car tests back when Adam was a lad.

Neither of us have taken any other tests.

D1 is learning to drive. When she has passed her car driving test, and gained experience, she would like to start towing.

Can she then use my Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer guven that it's a heavy rig? Obviously will need to take the test, but can she practice with either the D or me with her?

We're also looking at lorries. I wanted a 7.5t, but I know there are rules around age/tests/3.5t/7.5t, but don't know what they are! Please shed light on my confused and rapidly becoming addled brain

P.S. I was considering her making use of the Disco and Hugh, and me using the lorry

You or D can supervise D1 if you passed your car tests before 1997
All B licence holders have a B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence

That means they can tow a B+E combination either loaded or empty and on a motorway providing they adhere to these rules:-
Supervising driver must be age 21+ and held B+E for 3+ years
L plates on front of vehicle and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for B+E learner - check with current insurer

If the trailer is not plated and there is no way to find out from its manufacturer then the MAM will be what all the tyre load ratings on the tyres add up to
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Age 18 for ANY LGV including C1 (3.5 to 7.5 tonnes) but that can be obtained by getting LGV C as C1 is as subcategory of C - so the 18 year old can go direct from B to C
If all the driver wants is C1 and the trainer does it with a large 5 tonne van then go for that but if they are using a 7.5 tonne lorry then go for C as there is virtually no difference
Passing the LGV rigid test C1 or C will not give B+E
To get a +E then a +E test must be passed
Passing a +E test higher than B+E will automatically give B+E so passing a +E test in any C category will give B+E

If anything I've said is still not clear then please say so because its not your fault but mine as I need to find a way to put it to you in a way that makes it clear for you

 

[velvet2011]

Hi ROG, fairly positive my set up isn't legal but just checking out my options - of which sitting my B+E test is probably top. I assume the set up is fine when (if) I pass.
Many Thanks

1/ B (I think, passed in 1999)
2/ Kerbweight: 2185kg (Disco 2001)
3/ max towing weight: 3500kg
4/ towing capacity: 3500kg
5/ max gross weight: 2584kg (Ifor 510)
6/ Unladen weight: 1000kg

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG, fairly positive my set up isn't legal but just checking out my options - of which sitting my B+E test is probably top. I assume the set up is fine when (if) I pass.
Many Thanks

1/ B (I think, passed in 1999)
2/ Kerbweight: 2185kg (Disco 2001)
3/ max towing weight: 3500kg
4/ towing capacity: 3500kg
5/ max gross weight: 2584kg (Ifor 510)
6/ Unladen weight: 1000kg

IS THIS YOUR DISCO?
Kerb 2185
GVW 2880
Towing 3500

IFOR HB510 TRAILER
Unladen 1000
MAM 2584

B licence = maximum trailer plated MAM of 750kgs

B+E licence = maximum trailer plated MAM of 3500 kgs and can be fully loaded to 3500 because both the MAM and towing capacity are 3500

 

[velvet2011]

Thanks ROG. Yes its my disco. So combination will be fine with my B+E licence, thanks. And totally not legal even empty

 

[lexibell]

ROG

Apoligies if this question has been asked, I think someone must have possed the question but I dont have time on my break from work to read all of your replies - I hope you dont mind me asking.

I have towed previously and felt confident doing so, however my reversing left a little (lot!) to be desired!!! I have since discovered that as I passed after 97 I was infact towing illegally!! obviously I havent towed since.


anyway, my question is this. I only have one 14.2 dales to transport. He weights 500kg. I hold a B licence only. If I was to look at a single horse trailer, are there any vehicle/trailer combinations that would mean I could legally and safely tow him without taking my B+E test?

Thanks

 

[ROG]

Thanks ROG. Yes its my disco. So combination will be fine with my B+E licence, thanks. And totally not legal even empty

Not even empty for B licence towing because the GVW of the Disco and the MAM of the trailer will not change loaded or empty and it is those two weights added together which must not be over 3500 kgs
Also the trailer MAM must not be more than the unladen/kerb weight of the Disco

 

[ROG]

ROG

Apoligies if this question has been asked, I think someone must have possed the question but I dont have time on my break from work to read all of your replies - I hope you dont mind me asking.

I have towed previously and felt confident doing so, however my reversing left a little (lot!) to be desired!!! I have since discovered that as I passed after 97 I was infact towing illegally!! obviously I havent towed since.


anyway, my question is this. I only have one 14.2 dales to transport. He weights 500kg. I hold a B licence only. If I was to look at a single horse trailer, are there any vehicle/trailer combinations that would mean I could legally and safely tow him without taking my B+E test?

Thanks

YES there are such trailers and here are 3 of them - there may be more ...
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
Those can be downplated by contacting their respective manufacturers who are still trading - cost = nowt or very little to do that

What also matters is the vehicle you are going to tow with so please post what that will be so I can work things out for you
If you have the unladen/kerb, GVW and towing capacity weights in kgs then that will help a lot

 

[lexibell]

Thanks for that reply - I am actually looking at buying a new car in the next couple of months as my current old banger is on its way out!! hence my thinking that I could tow rather than trying to save for a 3.5 transit.

Perhaps you wouldnt mind recommending what types I should be looking at?

I doubt my budget for this vehicle will be huge TBH, so I will prob be looking at a used car rather than buying new

any ideas appreciated

Thanks again

 

[ROG]

Thanks for that reply - I am actually looking at buying a new car in the next couple of months as my current old banger is on its way out!! hence my thinking that I could tow rather than trying to save for a 3.5 transit.

Perhaps you wouldnt mind recommending what types I should be looking at?

I doubt my budget for this vehicle will be huge TBH, so I will prob be looking at a used car rather than buying new

any ideas appreciated

Thanks again

The Nissan X trail 4x4 is perhaps one option as others have mentioned it

With a 500 kgs horse and any one of those trailers I listed plated at say 1400 MAM (2 of them would need downplating to that) then you would need a vehicle with a Maximum GVW of 2100, a Minimum kerb/unladen weight of 1400 and a towing capacity of at least 1350

 

[lexibell]

Thanks for the advice ROG, I am on autotrader already car shopping