Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[Gryfiss]

awsome thanks for your help xxx

 

[frezek1]

Hi ROG, I have some doubts re: “heavy towing” and I hope you would be able to clarify them. Scenario: VW Touareg II – 2179kg kerbweight, GVW 2860, towing capacity 3500kg. Now, towing a trailer (e.g. horse box / car transporter) with MAM 3500kg (unladen 1000kg) Let's adopt that towing VW's real weight is 2400kg and trailer has a load of 2100kg on it which makes a total 3100kg actual trailer weight. As a result however complete legal (driver has got a B+E license, no GWV/MAM is exceeded, listed GTW is not exceeded) the trailer is physically much heavier (700kg) than the towing vehicle. Is is really safe to tow under these circumstances? Is it advisable to load some extra stuff (e.g. sand bags) to the towing vehicle to make it just heavier in above scenario? Thank you.

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG, I have some doubts re: “heavy towing” and I hope you would be able to clarify them. Scenario: VW Touareg II – 2179kg kerbweight, GVW 2860, towing capacity 3500kg. Now, towing a trailer (e.g. horse box / car transporter) with MAM 3500kg (unladen 1000kg) Let's adopt that towing VW's real weight is 2400kg and trailer has a load of 2100kg on it which makes a total 3100kg actual trailer weight. As a result however complete legal (driver has got a B+E license, no GWV/MAM is exceeded, listed GTW is not exceeded) the trailer is physically much heavier (700kg) than the towing vehicle. Is is really safe to tow under these circumstances? Is it advisable to load some extra stuff (e.g. sand bags) to the towing vehicle to make it just heavier in above scenario? Thank you.

The 3500 towing capacity is designed to be used with an empty vehicle but it is always SAFER to have the towing vehicle as heavy as possible with the trailer as light as possible - physics dictate that

 

[frezek1]

....extra load onto towing car (e.g. sand bags) are welcome then ;-) My point was than modern cars are lighter and lighter nowadays due to fuel efficiency. New Range Rover for instance (as well as new RR Sport) is around 400kgs lighter then the car of former generation but trailers we use to tow are still weight the same. It might be then a surprise to some new e.g. Range Rover owners that the trailer they easily tow with their previous Range can be “more nervous” on the road then it used to be... we all need to be very careful in this subject I think.

 

[ROG]

....extra load onto towing car (e.g. sand bags) are welcome then ;-) My point was than modern cars are lighter and lighter nowadays due to fuel efficiency. New Range Rover for instance (as well as new RR Sport) is around 400kgs lighter then the car of former generation but trailers we use to tow are still weight the same. It might be then a surprise to some new e.g. Range Rover owners that the trailer they easily tow with their previous Range can be “more nervous” on the road then it used to be... we all need to be very careful in this subject I think.

Component and vehicle designs now are better than before in general so therefore safer

 

[mamaleopard1214]

1. B
2. 1562kg
3. 1990kg
4. 1800kg
5. 2000kg
6. 720kg

Note: I do not currently have a trailer. But would like to know what I can tow. I want to take my shetland who weighs 235kg.

Thanks
Emma x

 

[ROG]

1. B
2. 1562kg
3. 1990kg
4. 1800kg
5. 2000kg
6. 720kg

Note: I do not currently have a trailer. But would like to know what I can tow. I want to take my shetland who weighs 235kg.

Thanks
Emma x

Gonna take number 3 as a round 2000 to make it easy

Vehicle GVW 2000 with trailer MAM 2000 = 4000 so 500 over B licence towing limit

SOLUTION - contact trailer manufacturer to down plate trailer to 1500 .... 2000+1500=3500=ok
That will leave 680 kgs payload for the trailer ... 1500-720=680

 

[Tayto]

Hello,

Is there a law that states your car must make a noise to confirm that your indicators are working correctly? I have heard mixed things i.e. they should only make a warning sound if they don't work.

Can you confirm?

 

[ROG]

Hello,

Is there a law that states your car must make a noise to confirm that your indicators are working correctly? I have heard mixed things i.e. they should only make a warning sound if they don't work.

Can you confirm?

You need someone who can search law - the RTA - and I am not too good at that

 

[Ginge Crosby]

Hi ROG
I'm having a headache trying to work out whether i'm legal towing my outfit on a B licence. You've given me some pointers a while ago but things have changed!
Vehicle is Honda CRV petrol, with curb weight of 1500kg. Max towing weight 1500kg, both according to manual, curb weight checked today on weighbridge.
Trailer is an older rice Europa. Now, this is where things get a little odd (in my mind anyway!) trailer has a sticker on it saying UW 747kg. Weight plate says 'capacity max from 1400kg to 2700kg'. We took the outfit to local weighbridge, weighed car separately, then weighed car + trailer + horse + normal kit i'd take to a show. Total comes in at just under 3000kg. So using a bit of maths, trailer + horse is 1400kg. Horse, on weightape, is 503kg (not accurate I know but can't be toooo far out). So unladen weight can't be 747kg, more likely 900ish kg? Only way to tell would be to weigh it on its own I suppose. But I have a feeling the UW sticker has been added at some point to make inexperienced trailer-buyers like myself believe the trailer is lighter than it is. (This whole episode has been an experience in how NOT to buy a trailer - long story).

Trying to find any official info on the Gov.uk website is proving confusing, as some pages mention one thing, other pages mention others, and all seem to be 'up to date' as they have 'last updated' dates of within the last 2 months.
I was using this webpage:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules/y/car-or-light-vehicle/no/licence-issued-before-19-Jan-2013 With this page I'm confused as to the point 'you can also tow larger trailers if - the fully loaded trailer weight isn't more than the unladen vehicle weight'. Does this mean the trailer MAM? Or am I being a little too hopeful interpreting it as what my 'fully loaded' trailer is - one 500kg horse

I've also just found this page:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car According to which, i'd be fine towing my outfit as it weighs in at less than 3500kg.

I will only ever be towing the above horse, and no more kit than I took with me today. Even if I was, I've got 500kg of leeway, yes?

So I suppose, my rather long winded questions are:
1) Am I towing legally on a B licence
2) What is the MAM of my trailer (as I can't work it out )
3) If I'm not legal and I do take my trailer test, would I need to upgrade car/trailer or is my combination do-able legally and within the car/trailer capabilities?
4) Where can I find the official legislation? (So I can print off a copy to keep in the car to remind myself!)

Apologies for the long and rambly post, and any help will be much gratefully received!!

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG
I'm having a headache trying to work out whether i'm legal towing my outfit on a B licence.

You need the GVW of your Honda which is the top of the four weights on the plate hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame

Your rice trailer is probably 2700 MAM and cannot be down plated because the manufacturer is no longer in business

Licences work on plated weights and NOT actual weights

Add honda GVW to trailer MAM and if it totals more than 3500 then it comes under B+E licence rules


Get rid of that trailer and get something like a HB401/403 where you can get it down plated to fit in with the B licence rule

That will mean you can then tow with one horse of up to about 650 kgs

 

[Ginge Crosby]

Looks like GWV of the Honda is 1930kg, so over the 3500kg. Looks like i'll forget about trying to tow on B licence. So does taking the trailer test mean I can tow my trailer with this car? I'm now concerned about the trailer MAM being more than the unladen weight of the tow vehicle, if that's relevant.

 

[ROG]

Looks like GWV of the Honda is 1930kg, so over the 3500kg. Looks like i'll forget about trying to tow on B licence. So does taking the trailer test mean I can tow my trailer with this car? I'm now concerned about the trailer MAM being more than the unladen weight of the tow vehicle, if that's relevant.

Not relevant - there is no law or rule which states the MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the vehicle towing capacity

If you have a towing capacity of 1500 and a trailer with a MAM of 3000 which weighs 750 empty then it can be loaded with 750

This may help in the meantime......

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

 

[KarlyHT]

Hi ROG, am currently looking at new cars and have a few options to consider. One of them is this one:

1. B licence
2. Unladen 1541
3. Gvw 2080
4. Braked towing 2000
5. MAM 1600kg
6. Unladen trailer 770kg
7. Horse weighs 540kg

The car is heavier than my current one so I fear may take me over the limits.

Thanks in advance!

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG, am currently looking at new cars and have a few options to consider. One of them is this one:

1. B licence
2. Unladen 1541
3. Gvw 2080
4. Braked towing 2000
5. MAM 1600kg
6. Unladen trailer 770kg
7. Horse weighs 540kg

The car is heavier than my current one so I fear may take me over the limits.

Thanks in advance!

2080+1600=3680 which is 180 over the 3500 limit

Easy solution as I think its an IFOR trailer .... contact IW and get them to reduce the MAM from 1600 to 1400 ... that will still give you a trailer payload of 630 (horse only 540)

 

[KarlyHT]

Thanks so much!! That's brilliant.

 

[mischamoo]

ROG - is there any restriction to what "trailer" you use for taking the B+E test? Most companies use the small closed box body trailers, however are you allowed to use a normal 2 horse trailer filled with the required weight?

 

[ROG]

ROG - is there any restriction to what "trailer" you use for taking the B+E test? Most companies use the small closed box body trailers, however are you allowed to use a normal 2 horse trailer filled with the required weight?

It must be a box type trailer that is virtually as high and as wide as the towing vehicle

It must be loaded with 600 kgs of weight listed sand bags or a full 1000 litre water IBC

It must be at least 1 tonne plated MAM but with the new loaded rules its unlikely to be less than that

 

[ArcticFox]

Hi Rog


Quick question.


I have a 7.5t horsebox, I'm thinking about putting a towbar on it to pull a trailer behind.

what weight could I tow behind the lorry? does it make a difference if the lorry isn't full?

also - not sure if you know, but any idea on the cost of a tow bar fitting? I was thinking the other day that a problem lots of lorries (including mine) have is that if you were parked into a fence line at an event then got stuck, there is no way of towing the lorry backwards as the skirting on the back would be damaged? I was thinking perhaps a towbar might help in that situation too?

 

[ArcticFox]

I should add that I passed my driving test pre 1997, however I do hold my HGV (rigid) which I passed a few years ago. I don't think that will make any difference to what I tow behind the 7.5 tonne, however just thought I'd add.


oh, and I'm non commercial, does that make any difference?

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog


Quick question.


I have a 7.5t horsebox, I'm thinking about putting a towbar on it to pull a trailer behind.

what weight could I tow behind the lorry? does it make a difference if the lorry isn't full?

also - not sure if you know, but any idea on the cost of a tow bar fitting? I was thinking the other day that a problem lots of lorries (including mine) have is that if you were parked into a fence line at an event then got stuck, there is no way of towing the lorry backwards as the skirting on the back would be damaged? I was thinking perhaps a towbar might help in that situation too?

I should add that I passed my driving test pre 1997, however I do hold my HGV (rigid) which I passed a few years ago. I don't think that will make any difference to what I tow behind the 7.5 tonne, however just thought I'd add.


oh, and I'm non commercial, does that make any difference?

Commercial or private makes no difference to the licencing laws

Pre 97 licence means you have a LGV C1+E with a 107 code

That 107 code limits a C1 vehicle towing a trailer to a maximum total plated MAM/GVW of 8250 kgs
That can be a 7500 GVW with a 750 kgs MAM trailer
OR - example
a 6500 GVW lorry/van with a 1750 kgs plated MAM trailer
OR - example
a 6000 GVW lorry/van with a 2250 kgs plated MAM trailer
Each of those totals a max of 8250 MAM

If you have a 7500 gvw lorry and only need it to be say 6500 then get it down plated via VOSA and DVLA then you can tow a larger MAM trailer

You need a LGV+E by passing a DSA test to increase your towing options and as you have a full C and C1 you could go for the DSA C1+E or C+E test


A towbar can often be used to tow the lorry out - seen that a few times !

 

[ArcticFox]

brill thanks

apart from reversing issues, does it matter what size trailer as long as its underweight? just thinking about towing a small caravan but I wouldn't be able to see it (although I have a reversing camera that I can check it with!)

 

[ROG]

brill thanks

apart from reversing issues, does it matter what size trailer as long as its underweight? just thinking about towing a small caravan but I wouldn't be able to see it (although I have a reversing camera that I can check it with!)

Physical size does not matter - its the plated weight that does

Towing a caravan with a MTPLM of 750 kgs behind a lorry with a GVW of 7.5 tonnes is legal on a C1 or a C1+E with 107 code

 

[KarlyHT]

Hi ROG, not sure if you are aware but ifor Williams now charge £40 plus VAT to down plate a trailer!

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG, not sure if you are aware but ifor Williams now charge £40 plus VAT to down plate a trailer!

was not aware but am now thanks

Just under £50 not bad though

 

[Goldenstar]

ROG help !
What does VCA approved mean .
And can I ( pre 1997 ) tow up to three tons behind a 4.5 ton little lorry .

 

[ROG]

ROG help !
What does VCA approved mean .
And can I ( pre 1997 ) tow up to three tons behind a 4.5 ton little lorry .

VCA = http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/other/civil-traffic-enforcement.asp

If you have a pre 1997 C1+E 107 code on licence then you can use a 4.5 tonne GVW vehicle towing a 3.0 tonnes plated MAM trailer providing the GTW allows for this

 

[Goldenstar]

VCA = http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/other/civil-traffic-enforcement.asp

If you have a pre 1997 C1+E 107 code on licence then you can use a 4.5 tonne GVW vehicle towing a 3.0 tonnes plated MAM trailer providing the GTW allows for this

Thanks for your ROG ,
So basically VCA means the company have had some of their vehicles subjected to safety testing by a third party .
I am selling my 7.5 toner and replacing with something else .
We are swinging from an 11 ton new build lehel at one extreme to a 4.5 ton and a caravan or perhaps a new IW eventa at the other my head is swimming .
I am thinking about a new build 7 ton iveco which give a great payload any thoughts on those ?

 

[liamC]

1 - BE
2 - 1500
3 - 2100
4 - 3700
5 - 2700
6 - 500

I am using a VW passat estate, I know that if I load my trailer to the max it will be exceed my car's towing capacity but my question is, if I keep the ACTUAL weight within the car's towing capacity is that legal even though the plated weight would take me over the towing capacity. I know I could downrate the trailer by changing the plate but I want to avoid this if possible.

 

[ROG]

1 - BE
2 - 1500
3 - 2100
4 - 3700
5 - 2700
6 - 500

I am using a VW passat estate, I know that if I load my trailer to the max it will be exceed my car's towing capacity but my question is, if I keep the ACTUAL weight within the car's towing capacity is that legal even though the plated weight would take me over the towing capacity. I know I could downrate the trailer by changing the plate but I want to avoid this if possible.

Sorry a bit late to reply but had to install google chrome to reply

Load trailer to car actual towing capacity and you are legal - the fact that the trailer MAM is higher makes no difference