Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[ROG]

so I can have horses weighing a combined total of 1500kg. And then this combination is ok? (sorry if I am being thick!)

Perfectly legal to put a total weight of 1500 into the trailer

 

[Liane]

Thank you

 

[Cragrat]

Sorry if this has been answered, couldn't find the right question to search.

If we get a Hilux with a towing capacity of 2256, and hitch to a 510 with 2 horses - combined total 2100kg, I think that's ok? (Old fogey BE licence).

But can I then load water, tack, people etc into the hilux? I am sure that could come to more than 156kg, but then I won't be towing them- they would act as balast against the trailer?

Thank you

 

[ROG]

Sorry if this has been answered, couldn't find the right question to search.

If we get a Hilux with a towing capacity of 2256, and hitch to a 510 with 2 horses - combined total 2100kg, I think that's ok? (Old fogey BE licence).

But can I then load water, tack, people etc into the hilux? I am sure that could come to more than 156kg, but then I won't be towing them- they would act as balast against the trailer?

Thank you

Anything that goes in the vehicle comes under the vehicle GVW
Anything that goes in the trailer comes under the trailer MAM and/or vehicle towing capacity

You are ok with that combo on your B+E licence

http://vanleasingmadesimple.com/van-leasing/toyota/hilux/max-towing-weight-braked/
I think you will find that 2800 is the max towing capacity for the hilux but the 510 MAM is going to be less than that so the max actual weight for trailer including its load is going to be the MAM of the 510

 

[Cragrat]

Thank you

http://vanleasingmadesimple.com/van-leasing/toyota/hilux/max-towing-weight-braked/
I think you will find that 2800 is the max towing capacity for the hilux but the 510 MAM is going to be less than that so the max actual weight for trailer including its load is going to be the MAM of the 510

But this has confused me. I used this site
http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Toyota&model1=Hilux 3.0 D-4D Double Cab

and it says 2256kg. Is it because we are unfortunately looking at an older model? It's is the 3 litre 4 door invincible, but an 08 year model.

Either way, I think I should be ok, but obviously nicer/ safer to have a bit more spare capacity- will have to not let the horses put on weight

Thank you

 

[ROG]

Thank you



But this has confused me. I used this site
http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Toyota&model1=Hilux 3.0 D-4D Double Cab

and it says 2256kg. Is it because we are unfortunately looking at an older model? It's is the 3 litre 4 door invincible, but an 08 year model.

Either way, I think I should be ok, but obviously nicer/ safer to have a bit more spare capacity- will have to not let the horses put on weight

Thank you

To be certain look at the weight plate which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame
Deduct the top figure from the second figure and that is usually the towing capacity

Ignore bottom 2 of the 4 figures as they are the axle weights

 

[Cragrat]

Will make sure I check when we go to test drive one- thank you again.

 

[ROG]

Will make sure I check when we go to test drive one- thank you again.

Did you test drive and find the weights yet?

 

[sidesaddlegirl]

Hi Rog,

We bought a new 2.0 litre diesel estate (well new to us), it comes on Wednesday and passed my driving test after 10 years of lessons in October, so now I have a B license. I want to get out towing this year or next to local shows so am looking for a single trailer, either the Ifor 401 or the Cheval Liberte GT1. My horse is a 15.2hh lightweight TB who was weighed by the Allen & Page lady on their portable scales at 455kg at spring weight, at full summer fatness, she is about 460- 470kg.

Here are the specs:
1 - What licence they hold : I have a B license, my OH has a pre-1997 license.
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1527 kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 1990kg is on the VIN plate.
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 1500kg.
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres: Ifor 401 1600kg or Cheval Liberte 1400kg.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: Ifor 401 770kg or Cheval Liberte 720kg.

I'm thinking I would be legal with the Cheval Liberte as is on my B license but would need to downplate the Ifor 401 to 1500kg to be legal or take my towing test?

I also discovered that Bateson do a double lightweight trailer that has a gross weight of 1700kg and an unladen weight of 675kg and that they would downplate for a single horse so I guess if I downplated that to 1500kg, that their double with just my TB in there would be ok too?

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog,

We bought a new 2.0 litre diesel estate (well new to us), it comes on Wednesday and passed my driving test after 10 years of lessons in October, so now I have a B license. I want to get out towing this year or next to local shows so am looking for a single trailer, either the Ifor 401 or the Cheval Liberte GT1. My horse is a 15.2hh lightweight TB who was weighed by the Allen & Page lady on their portable scales at 455kg at spring weight, at full summer fatness, she is about 460- 470kg.

Here are the specs:
1 - What licence they hold : I have a B license, my OH has a pre-1997 license.
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1527 kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 1990kg is on the VIN plate.
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 1500kg.
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres: Ifor 401 1600kg or Cheval Liberte 1400kg.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: Ifor 401 770kg or Cheval Liberte 720kg.

I'm thinking I would be legal with the Cheval Liberte as is on my B license but would need to downplate the Ifor 401 to 1500kg to be legal or take my towing test?

I also discovered that Bateson do a double lightweight trailer that has a gross weight of 1700kg and an unladen weight of 675kg and that they would downplate for a single horse so I guess if I downplated that to 1500kg, that their double with just my TB in there would be ok too?

Your figures and working outs are spot on

You are spot on with the Bateson Derby trailer - only costs a tenner to down plate with them but you remove plate - send it to them with tenner - they send you new plate - you fit it

IW cost is £50 to down plate

 

[sidesaddlegirl]

Thanks Rog!!! Now just need to get a trailer

 

[littlen]

Sorry to post to this thread again everyone.

I am really conflicted as to what to do re a trailer or Horsebox. Financially the trailer makes sense however I am sick of negative comments from people saying it would be either illegal or risky for me to tow without doing the test. I have never towed before and I would say I am an average driver. I could practice with the trailer but would be on my own most of the time hitching etc.

What is everyone's views on towing on a B without any lessons. Is this too risky?
Horse can be an idiot with stamping in the trailer.

How likley am I to need to be weighed by the police etc? How often are people pulled over the checked as this scares me!

Car weighs 2250kg. Trailer would be a bateson Derby, single horse weighing 500kg. Car can tow somewhere in the region of 2000kg and is 4x4. Like I said i have never towed before ever. Would this weight be too close to the mark to be safe?

Thoughts ROG?

 

[catroo]

Sorry to post to this thread again everyone.

I am really conflicted as to what to do re a trailer or Horsebox. Financially the trailer makes sense however I am sick of negative comments from people saying it would be either illegal or risky for me to tow without doing the test. I have never towed before and I would say I am an average driver. I could practice with the trailer but would be on my own most of the time hitching etc.

What is everyone's views on towing on a B without any lessons. Is this too risky?
Horse can be an idiot with stamping in the trailer.

How likley am I to need to be weighed by the police etc? How often are people pulled over the checked as this scares me!

Car weighs 2250kg. Trailer would be a bateson Derby, single horse weighing 500kg. Car can tow somewhere in the region of 2000kg and is 4x4. Like I said i have never towed before ever. Would this weight be too close to the mark to be safe?

Thoughts ROG?

I'll leave ROG to confirm weights but being within legal weight is important, it's not down to the likelihood of getting caught! If your car/trailer/horse combination is overweight then it will invalidate your insurance, while you may be careful accidents do happen and that could turn out very expensive if your insurance company denies any claim.

If you are legal then it's down to your ability, some people are natural and a handful couldn't get the hang of it in a month of Sundays. Best thing is plenty of practice with an empty box before you try with a horse, if you've never towed anything before I personally would recommend a lesson or at least a session with someone who is experienced even if they aren't an official trainer.

 

[ROG]

Sorry to post to this thread again everyone.

I am really conflicted as to what to do re a trailer or Horsebox. Financially the trailer makes sense however I am sick of negative comments from people saying it would be either illegal or risky for me to tow without doing the test. I have never towed before and I would say I am an average driver. I could practice with the trailer but would be on my own most of the time hitching etc.

What is everyone's views on towing on a B without any lessons. Is this too risky?
Horse can be an idiot with stamping in the trailer.

How likley am I to need to be weighed by the police etc? How often are people pulled over the checked as this scares me!

Car weighs 2250kg. Trailer would be a bateson Derby, single horse weighing 500kg. Car can tow somewhere in the region of 2000kg and is 4x4. Like I said i have never towed before ever. Would this weight be too close to the mark to be safe?

Thoughts ROG?

Many tow without having any lessons - many of those have the free pre 1997 B+E so there can be no difference in a B or B+E towing novice


If your vehicle has a plated GVW or max permissable max weight of 2250 then the max plated weight (MAM) for a trailer on a B licence is 1250

The Bateson Derby empty is 675 so having it down plated via contact with Bateson from 1700 to 1250 leaves 575 for the trailer load - your horse is 75 under that max so ok

Without doing it legally correctly you are invalidating any insurance and leave your self open to points and a very large fine - its not worth chancing it especially when it can legally be done easily

 

[littlen]

Thanks ROG. The car can tow 2200kg braked according to the handbook so I think that should be plenty for my pony- not sure what I am worried about but every single person I've told seems horrified that I am towing with a)a small 4x4 and b) without the test even though it would be legal?
My friend tows a massive Ifor williams two horse with the same vehicle and it pulls just fine and she's never had trouble but she has the earlier lisence.

That 75kg spare wouldn't include the items in the car would it? Can I load the car with as much weight as I want legally?

I am sure it would be legally correct with the above weights but I just want to be 1000% sure before I commit to a new car and also a £4000 trailer. You have already checked the weights for me previously I believe and I'm sure the car is 2250kg and has full 4x4 spec, the model I am looking at has hill descent assist etc.

Thanks again both of you much appreciated.

 

[ROG]

Thanks ROG. The car can tow 2200kg braked according to the handbook so I think that should be plenty for my pony- not sure what I am worried about but every single person I've told seems horrified that I am towing with a)a small 4x4 and b) without the test even though it would be legal?
My friend tows a massive Ifor williams two horse with the same vehicle and it pulls just fine and she's never had trouble but she has the earlier lisence.

That 75kg spare wouldn't include the items in the car would it? Can I load the car with as much weight as I want legally?

I am sure it would be legally correct with the above weights but I just want to be 1000% sure before I commit to a new car and also a £4000 trailer. You have already checked the weights for me previously I believe and I'm sure the car is 2250kg and has full 4x4 spec, the model I am looking at has hill descent assist etc.

Thanks again both of you much appreciated.

75 spare for the trailer

The car has its own weight load amount which is the GVW minus the kerb/empty/mass in service weight

 

[littlen]

A quick Google tells me that the derby weighs 600 without the partition which would give a bit more wiggle room- I would have to contact bateson to confirm this though but if that's true it makes me feel a bit happier about having a tiny bit of room to play with!

 

[ROG]

A quick Google tells me that the derby weighs 600 without the partition which would give a bit more wiggle room- I would have to contact bateson to confirm this though but if that's true it makes me feel a bit happier about having a tiny bit of room to play with!

Would allow for a little more to go in the trailer but its not that big a deal because its still well within the plated trailer weight and the vehicle towing capacity

 

[ROG]

Some useful driving licence info

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf
see pages 7 to 10

 

[ROG]

As this is post number 2000 which makes it easy to relate back to

These simple rules apply to all B and B+E category drivers no matter when the test was passed

B category
Vehicle not more than 3500 kg plated GVW

B category towing
A trailer of 750 kg max plated MAM may be towed by a B category vehicle making a possible total plated MAM of 4250 kg
If a trailer over 750 kg plated MAM is towed by a B category vehicle then the plated GVW of the vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer (MTPLM of a caravan) must not total more than 3500 kg

B+E category
Towing a trailer with a B category vehicle where the trailer is not over 3500 kg plated MAM

To tow a trailer over 3500 kg plated MAM the category needed is C1+E

Below goes deeper into the rules......

Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained

Licensing laws are based on plated weights not actual weights.

GVW, MAM or MTPLM means maximum permissible legal weight something can weigh when fully loaded.

The towing vehicle GVW can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form listed as maximum permissible mass, the handbook, or a plate somewhere on the vehicle – usually under bonnet or hidden in a door frame – the top figure is always the GVW.

Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit) – not legally enforceable in the RTA but based on safety and engine power under certain conditions and can be prosecuted for excess under C&U reg 100

GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.

The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM to a maximum of 3500 even if the total is more than that.

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.

The only legally recognised way to down plate a trailer of 3500 kgs MAM or less is to contact the trailer manufacturer usually at very little cost.

The laws/rules are these for both B+E & B licence towing.
The GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The GTW must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded (RTA law).
The towing capacity should not be exceeded (can be prosecutable under C&U regulation 100).
The lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity must/should be used as the maximum actual weight when loaded.

For B licence towing with a trailer over 750 kgs MAM.
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not exceed 3500 kg (RTA law)

EXAMPLE
Vehicle
GVW 2050 kg
Towing capacity 1700 kg
GTW 3750 kg

Trailer
Un-laden/empty 700 kg
MAM 2000 kg

For B+E licence towing the trailer can be loaded with 1000 kgs because 1000+700=1700 kg which is the towing capacity.

For B licence towing the trailer would need down plating from 2000 kgs to a maximum of 1450 kg.
The reason is that 1450+2050=3500 which is the maximum allowed for B licence towing.
The trailer can be loaded with 750 kg because 750+700=1450 kg which is the trailer MAM.

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice.

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving
The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles

Well explained here = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED – a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself.
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS = http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.

Please post with as much of this info as you can if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kg please

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
GVW =
Towing capacity =

TRAILER
Un-laden/empty =
MAM =

 

[km-j]

Good afternoon,
Would you mind checking my details please to see if my setup is legal:

1 - BE
2 - 1391kg
3 - 1950kg
4 - 1500kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg

Thanks muchly 😄

 

[ROG]

Good afternoon,
Would you mind checking my details please to see if my setup is legal:

1 - BE
2 - 1391kg
3 - 1950kg
4 - 1500kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg

Thanks muchly ��

LEGAL as long as you put no more than 733kg into the trailer (1500-767=733)

If the trailer was down plated from 1600 to 1550 then it would also be legal for a B licence to tow

 

[ThoroughbredStar]

Hi ROG

Here are my details:


1 - B
2 - 1605kg - unladen weight of vehicle
3 - 2075kg - GVW
4 - 1700kg - Towing capacity (breaked)
5 - 2000kg - Trailer MAM
6 - 700kg - unladen trailer weight

I am of the understanding I need to down plate my trailer to 1600kg to make it legal.

My horse weighs approx 518kg (currently) which would then in total make my combination weight well within the 3.5t, 2823kg.



Many thanks
TS

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG

Here are my details:


1 - B
2 - 1605kg - unladen weight of vehicle
3 - 2075kg - GVW
4 - 1700kg - Towing capacity (breaked)
5 - 2000kg - Trailer MAM
6 - 700kg - unladen trailer weight

I am of the understanding I need to down plate my trailer to 1600kg to make it legal.

My horse weighs approx 518kg (currently) which would then in total make my combination weight well within the 3.5t, 2823kg.



Many thanks
TS

You need to down plate the trailer to a max of 1425 to make it legal (2075+1425=3500) as 3500 is the max for B towing

Down plating it to 1400 will still leave 700 for the trailer load so plenty enough for a horse between 500 and 600

Your 2823 weight is the actual weight without anything or anybody in the car - licencing laws always go on plated weights

 

[Trailer Training]

The information ROG is giving is dependant on when you passed your car driving test as the towing law changed again in January 2013

 

[ThoroughbredStar]

You need to down plate the trailer to a max of 1425 to make it legal (2075+1425=3500) as 3500 is the max for B towing

Down plating it to 1400 will still leave 700 for the trailer load so plenty enough for a horse between 500 and 600

Your 2823 weight is the actual weight without anything or anybody in the car - licencing laws always go on plated weights

Great, thank you for that.

I did not realise the law was based on the Plated weights and not the actual weights, which does seem a little crazy.

I was also of the understanding as per a "horsey towing website" that the trailer MAM was not to exceed the unladen weight of a vehicle, not the GVW. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[ThoroughbredStar]

The information ROG is giving is dependant on when you passed your car driving test as the towing law changed again in January 2013

Post "97 Pre "13

 

[ROG]

The information ROG is giving is dependant on when you passed your car driving test as the towing law changed again in January 2013

No it did not - the rules for ALL B and B+E drivers are exactly the same no matter when they passed the test

PLEASE DO NOT GIVE OUT INCORRECT INFO AS LAW based on what you surmised from the internet where the DVLA has left up the old rules which got revoked on 19/01/2013

Here are the currrent laws on pages 7 t0 10 = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf

If you want to discuss verbally then please initially contact me at r0g@live.co.uk which is my spare email address - I will then email you my phone number

 

[ROG]

Great, thank you for that.

I did not realise the law was based on the Plated weights and not the actual weights, which does seem a little crazy.

I was also of the understanding as per a "horsey towing website" that the trailer MAM was not to exceed the unladen weight of a vehicle, not the GVW. Thank you for clearing that up.

That last rule was revoked in full on 19/01/2013 but the plated weight rule is and always has been there

 

[ThoroughbredStar]

That last rule was revoked in full on 19/01/2013 but the plated weight rule is and always has been there

Thank you.

I am also presuming that I still have to also comply with the following weight guidelines:
Trailer laden/unladen weight not to exceed towing capacity of vehicle.
Combination of trailer, vehicle and contents being within 3.5t.
Not to load the trailer and exceed its plated MAM.

Many thanks