Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[catherine22]

Rog, the GVW of the car is 1015 so we would be over. Will save for my B+E test to be safe and legal

 

[ROG]

Rog, the GVW of the car is 1015 so we would be over. Will save for my B+E test to be safe and legal

GVW will be well over that ..... or is that a typo ?

 

[catherine22]

thanks rog, was relying on OH for that figure. I have the V5 and cant see GVW on there at all, is it called something else?

 

[rachk89]

Quick question (might have been covered not sure), but my mums friend asked us today if we insured our new truck for towing purposes. Now it is insured to drive, but she seemed to think we needed to pay extra to tow with it. She however does pay extra because they use their vehicles to tow as part of their business, whereas for us its private use. I am not aware of needing to pay extra to tow, am I completely wrong? It would be news to me if we do and feeling kind of stupid if we do actually need to do that.

 

[catherine22]

Rog, t'internt says
weight specifications

Unladen Weight
3924.2 lbs OR 1780 kg
Gross Weight Limit
5180.9 lbs OR 2350 kg

I have very little idea what that means apart from I'd be over

 

[ROG]

Rog, t'internt says
weight specifications

Unladen Weight
3924.2 lbs OR 1780 kg
Gross Weight Limit
5180.9 lbs OR 2350 kg

I have very little idea what that means apart from I'd be over

I looked on internet but could not find GVW for your model so well done you

2350 + 2584 = 4934 so well over the 3500 B limit

You could down plate the trailer to 1150 but as it weighs 1000 empty you could only load 150 kg into it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[catherine22]

Back to saving then! thanks rog

 

[KJJ]

Passed Nov 98
B/B1 license
BMW X5 55plate 3.0ltr diesel auto
What can I (if anything) Tow?
Horse approx 500/600kg

Thank you!

I don't have a trailer but possibly can borrow but be interested to know if worth trying

X

 

[ROG]

Passed Nov 98
B/B1 license
BMW X5 55plate 3.0ltr diesel auto
What can I (if anything) Tow?
Horse approx 500/600kg

Thank you!

I don't have a trailer but possibly can borrow but be interested to know if worth trying

X

If this is your car = http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/bmw-x5-e53-2003.html#aeng_bmw-x5-2003-30d - then the GVW is 2685kg which only leaves 815 kg for a trailer on a B licence which is no good for a horse trailer

You need a car with a GVW around say 2200kg max so you can get something like a Bateson Derby trailer down plated from 1700 to 1300 and as it weighs 675 empty it leaves a max trailer load of 625

The plated GVW(MAM) of the towing vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer cannot total more than 3500 on a B licence
GVW + MAM mean the same thing = the max weight something can be when fully loaded

Licences go on plated weights not actual weight

 

[KJJ]

If this is your car = http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/bmw-x5-e53-2003.html#aeng_bmw-x5-2003-30d - then the GVW is 2685kg which only leaves 815 kg for a trailer on a B licence which is no good for a horse trailer

You need a car with a GVW around say 2200kg max so you can get something like a Bateson Derby trailer down plated from 1700 to 1300 and as it weighs 675 empty it leaves a max trailer load of 625

The plated GVW(MAM) of the towing vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer cannot total more than 3500 on a B licence
GVW + MAM mean the same thing = the max weight something can be when fully loaded

Licences go on plated weights not actual weight

It is indeed my car. Thank you for info x

 

[ROG]

It is indeed my car. Thank you for info x

You can tow under B+E prov rules - see post number 2000 of this thread

 

[tractor]

1) 1870kg
2) 2850kg
3) 5540kg
4) 3500kg
5) 800kg

Not mine, but work trailers! Thank you Drivers all have B+E

 

[ROG]

1) 1870kg
2) 2850kg
3) 5540kg
4) 3500kg
5) 800kg

Not mine, but work trailers! Thank you Drivers all have B+E

5540 - 2850 = 2690 so 2690 will be the maximum for the trailer including its load UNLESS there is no towing capacity listed in which case the vehicle + its load added to the trailer + its load must not exceed 5540

 

[tractor]

Thank you - they are Ifor Williams Flatbeds, would you know if they can be downplated? We got pulled today, the police basically said if there was a 2500 trailer behind the same vehicle, we'd have been legal. It's all very confusing! If the current vehicles aren't suitable, would you know what would be.....Isuzu? Thank you, x

 

[ROG]

Thank you - they are Ifor Williams Flatbeds, would you know if they can be downplated? We got pulled today, the police basically said if there was a 2500 trailer behind the same vehicle, we'd have been legal. It's all very confusing! If the current vehicles aren't suitable, would you know what would be.....Isuzu? Thank you, x

BULLCRAP BY PLOD

I hope you have their contact details or police officer numbers so you can ask then what law has been broken and make sure they give you the exact law under the 1988 RTS ot the C&U regs .................... THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BECAUSE NO LAW WAS BROKEN

Down plating is only needed to conform to B licence towing or to keep under the 3500 MAM limit for tacho regs etc - certainly not to conform to any B+E licence requirements

ADD = please post what police force this was and the place date and time etc so I can call them !!

 

[KJJ]

You can tow under B+E prov rules - see post number 2000 of this thread

Totally confused now!! Brain not working but thank you x

 

[ROG]

Totally confused now!! Brain not working but thank you x

THIS means you can drive a B+E set up under Learner rules as you cannot drive your current set up on your own because the total plated weights add up to more than 3500 kgs

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving

 

[KJJ]

THIS means you can drive a B+E set up under Learner rules as you cannot drive your current set up on your own because the total plated weights add up to more than 3500 kgs

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving

Great that makes sense!! Thank you

 

[tractor]

BULLCRAP BY PLOD

I hope you have their contact details or police officer numbers so you can ask then what law has been broken and make sure they give you the exact law under the 1988 RTS ot the C&U regs .................... THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BECAUSE NO LAW WAS BROKEN

Down plating is only needed to conform to B licence towing or to keep under the 3500 MAM limit for tacho regs etc - certainly not to conform to any B+E licence requirements

ADD = please post what police force this was and the place date and time etc so I can call them !!

Ooh that's interesting - they said that we were illegal, that the trucks (single cab L200) could only tow 2500 (2690) in total, so our 3500 rated trailers loaded with hay/straw/bedding weren't legal. This was Essex Police, at Boreham Services on Tuesday at around 12noon. We've been stopped before by the Met, they weighed us and said that as long as we were under the total 5540......which we would always be as there's only so much you can stack on ;-) So confusing.

 

[ROG]

Ooh that's interesting - they said that we were illegal, that the trucks (single cab L200) could only tow 2500 (2690) in total, so our 3500 rated trailers loaded with hay/straw/bedding weren't legal. This was Essex Police, at Boreham Services on Tuesday at around 12noon. We've been stopped before by the Met, they weighed us and said that as long as we were under the total 5540......which we would always be as there's only so much you can stack on ;-) So confusing.

Essex plod at Boreham need to brush up on the law

This is 100% legal
Vehicle GVW 2200 with a 2000 towing capacity and GTW at 4200 towing a trailer plated at 3500 weighing 1000 empty loaded with 1000

If the vehicle was actually weighing 2200 and the trailer at 2000 then .....
GVW not over
Trailer MAM not over
GTW not over
Towing capacity not over

So what are plod going to charge a driver with ??????????????

 

[Mike007]

Whilst rog and I have our differences on other legal matters , I wish to say that he is totaly on the mark here!

 

[Jaybugg]

1 - B
2 - 1800
3 - 2.2
4 - 2.0
5 - 1t
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer Unknown :/ metal rice mare and foal pony box (hoping to get to weighbridge soon but as an estimate 650kg?)

 

[Jaybugg]

Done some research trailer is rice eventer (older style) unladen weight 610kg

 

[ROG]

1 - B
2 - 1800
3 - 2.2
4 - 2.0
5 - 1t
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer Unknown :/ metal rice mare and foal pony box (hoping to get to weighbridge soon but as an estimate 650kg?)
Done some research trailer is rice eventer (older style) unladen weight 610kg

If the GVW (3) is 2200 then the max plated weight for a trailer is 1300 so the question is ... do you have the plated weight on the trailer or if not then I need to know the total of all the tyre load ratings = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating

I also saw your other post

Hi I am another who has become a little bamboozled by the towing rules and jargon.
So I have a metal sided wood floor older style rice rear unload only trailer (mare and foal box) with a MAM 1tonne -unladen weight yet unknown -anyone with a similar trailer have any idea? Hoping to get to a weigh bridge soon.
Towing with a 2.2 diesel Honda CR-V. Mam 2.2t with unladen weight 1750kg
The pony I want to tow is 375kg

Am I legal??

Ps I have a b lisence. Passing test post 1997.

 

[Jaybugg]

Thanks for your time yeah it has a small plate on the inside of the box which states MAM 1t the wheels (provided I looked at the right bit?? Are 75/75/75/70

Hope that makes sense?

 

[ROG]

Thanks for your time yeah it has a small plate on the inside of the box which states MAM 1t the wheels (provided I looked at the right bit?? Are 75/75/75/70

Hope that makes sense?

MAM plate makes no sense

The tyre load ratings will now be the MAM so 387+387+387+335=1496

At 1496 (lets call it 1500) its illegal for your set up as 2200+1500=3700 so 200 over the 3500 limit for B towing
There is no way to get a new weight plate as Rice are not in business = NEW trailer needed where the manufacturer is still trading so it can be legally down plated

 

[Jaybugg]

Great thanks. Already booked in for b+e anyways at end of month so will just have to wait to get that by before heading on any adventures cheers

 

[ROG]

Great thanks. Already booked in for b+e anyways at end of month so will just have to wait to get that by before heading on any adventures cheers

Until then you just need someone sitting next to you ..............

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving

 

[Mrsjackson161]

After the recent poll by perfect11s:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=489592

Many agreed a sticky would be very useful, but the format needed to change to avoid the confusion/arguments.

At the end of the above thread, ROG kindly agreed to help run a Towing Clinic for those who find the laws & limitations as confusing as I did.


Here is an example of how it will work:-

"If a member on here was to provide me with the relevant info then I can say whether the set up is legal or not on either a B or BE licence and WHY

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

- ROG

"I'll start here first...

1. B+E Licence
2. 2410kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 3450kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4. 2500kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Thanks ROG. "

- tallyho!

"LEGAL

1 - max vehicle GVW of 3500 (you got 3450) and max trailer MAM of 3500 (you got 1905)
2 - correct - usually listed in handbook
3 - correct - number 2 (2410) with full load of 1040 (2410+1040=3450)
4 - max weight of empty trailer plus the load on it
5 minus 6 1905-905=1000 so 1000 is the max load that can be loaded onto the trailer

5 is much lower than 4 so a fully laden trailler weighing 1905 is well within the max towing capacity of 2500

Your max combination weight would be 5355 with that set up (3450+1905=5355) but you could go up to 5950 if you got a trailer with a MAM of at least 2500 (up to 3500)

ADD - the problem in getting a trailer with a greater MAM could be that it is heavier when empty so getting a 3500 MAM trailer which weighed 1500 empty still only allows you a max payload of 1000 because of the 2500 towing capacity limit for your vehicle

If you are happy with the trailer load capacity of 1000 then great! "

-ROG

Hope that makes sense and you find it useful. Any questions about using the clinic, please PM me so we can keep the clinic running as smoothly as possible.

Useful Links:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Nissan#tab1

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm

TYRE LOAD RATINGS calculate KGS by multiplying the number of tyres

ROG's thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968

Hi I am wondering if you could work one out for me

1. B test
2. 1555
3.2050
4. 2600
5.1905
6.920

thank you

 

[ROG]

Hi I am wondering if you could work one out for me

1. B test
2. 1555
3.2050
4. 2600
5.1905
6.920

thank you

Trailer needs down plating from 1905 to 1450 which then leaves a max trailer load of 530kg

HMMM.... you sure its plated at 1905 and not 2600 ???????????