Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[cheekywelshie]

Hi Rog
In sure you've explained it on here somewhere but can you explain kerbweight?? The dusters kerbweight is really low about 1230 ish so how does that affect things? I can't find one experience of anyone who tows a horse using this car so not looking good

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog
In sure you've explained it on here somewhere but can you explain kerbweight?? The dusters kerbweight is really low about 1230 ish so how does that affect things? I can't find one experience of anyone who tows a horse using this car so not looking good

Kerb/empty weight of vehicle makes no difference to anything

What can matter is the actual weight of the vehicle and trailer when towing because it is recommended that the vehicle weigh more than the trailer in most cases but there are vehicles designed to tow more than their weight safely

Manufacturers work out what is safe to tow for their vehicles

 

[Rufus100]

Hi ROG, thanks in advance!

1. B (have lessons and test booked... good to know if test needed but plan lessons anyway!)
2. 1653kg
3.
4. 2000kg
5. 2300kg
6. 860kg

Bateson Deauville and Honda Crv 2.2 diesel.
Horse is 630kg.

Thanks

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG, thanks in advance!

1. B (have lessons and test booked... good to know if test needed but plan lessons anyway!)
2. 1653kg
3.
4. 2000kg
5. 2300kg
6. 860kg

Bateson Deauville and Honda Crv 2.2 diesel.
Horse is 630kg.

Thanks

Number 3 should be around 2200 GVW so the total MAM about 4500 which is well over the B tow limit of 3500

Under B+E rules it is ok with a max trailer load of 1140

 

[fiestiemaestie]

Hi

B+E license.

2004 Audi A4 quattro 2.5

For Williams 506 trailer

500kg Tb

 

[ROG]

Hi

B+E license.

2004 Audi A4 quattro 2.5

For Williams 506 trailer

500kg Tb

What is the towing capacity of your Audi ? - see max towing weight on the V5 doc

 

[fiestiemaestie]

It says 1800kg

 

[ROG]

1800kg towing capacity
B+E licence
2004 Audi A4 quattro 2.5
506 trailer = 920 empty
500kg horse

920 + 500 = 1420 so well within the 1800 towing limit

 

[Rufus100]

Thank you for your help ROG, greatly appreciated

 

[SuperCat007]

Hello, thinking of buying a towing vehicle and trailer. The ones I like the look of are: Passat estate and Bateson Deauville
1. B
2. ~1430 kg
3. 2060 kg (ish, this is for the brand new ones which are bigger than the older style I was looking at)
4. 2000 kg
5. (I think) 1440
6. 860 kg

 

[ROG]

Hello, I'm looking to buy a towing vehicle. I'm driving on a B licence and may well do the B+E/C test in due course, but not for now. So the car needs to be lightish so estate/SUV and so does the trailer. I have 1 450ish kg 15 hh pony to tow and he's the only person I'd ever take.

Budget for the trailer AND car would be ~£10,000; I'm thinking around £6,000-8,000 for the car and the rest for the trailer.

The best option I've come across so far is the Passat estate 2.0L TDI (GVW 2060, max towing capacity 2000, . The car will also be my everyday car so needs to be fairly economical and nice to drive day to day.

The trailer I like to look of at the moment is the Bateson Deauville: Gross weight 2300, unladen 860, capacity 1440.

Any advice or opinions on cars and/or trailers would be greatly appreciated.

With a GVW of 2060 the max plated MAM the trailer can be is 1440 so 2300 is way too high

SOLUTION - contact Bateson and get the 2300 down plated to 1400 which will then leave 540 for the horse/trailer load so plenty for the 450 pony

 

[SuperCat007]

With a GVW of 2060 the max plated MAM the trailer can be is 1440 so 2300 is way too high

SOLUTION - contact Bateson and get the 2300 down plated to 1400 which will then leave 540 for the horse/trailer load so plenty for the 450 pony

Thanks, that's really helpful. So I need to find a lighter car ideally as well as a lighter trailer.

What are the consequences of down-plating a trailer? Does it just affect the amount of weight you can put on it? Or does it have larger, legal consequences if you're pulled over and weighed etc?

 

[ROG]

Thanks, that's really helpful. So I need to find a lighter car ideally as well as a lighter trailer.

What are the consequences of down-plating a trailer? Does it just affect the amount of weight you can put on it? Or does it have larger, legal consequences if you're pulled over and weighed etc?

You do not need a lighter car

Down plating simply reduces its legal max top weight so reducing the max amount it can legally carry but the empty weight remains constant

Trailer remains empty at 800
Trailer plated at 2000 can carry 1200 (2000-800=1200)
Trailer down plated from 2000 to 1400 can carry 600 (1400-800=600)

Down plating can only be done by trailer manufacturer

Bateson charge about a tenner - you call then then remove and send current plate with fee - they send and you fit new plate

 

[SuperCat007]

You do not need a lighter car

Down plating simply reduces its legal max top weight so reducing the max amount it can legally carry but the empty weight remains constant

Trailer remains empty at 800
Trailer plated at 2000 can carry 1200 (2000-800=1200)
Trailer down plated from 2000 to 1400 can carry 600 (1400-800=600)

Down plating can only be done by trailer manufacturer

Bateson charge about a tenner - you call then then remove and send current plate with fee - they send and you fit new plate

Thank you. It's a bit of a minefield for a complete novice! That's hugely helpful. I'd probably buy direct from them and they mention doing it before you buy the trailer. Ideally if I can find a lighter car that'd help though, but it'd be nice to have the additional towing capacity. I don't want my first towing experience to be in a car which can only just tow the weight.

 

[ellis9905]

Hi - I have a question as I'm not sure I have my head round this right!
I am ok towing as I have b+e however my husband only has b on his license ... The majority of the time it's me who towed but just occasionally it would be helpful if he could take daughter and pony out.

So I was thinking about getting my trailer down plated...

We tow with a 54plate Kia sorrento and tow a Bateson deauville trailer..

So is this right-
Car gvw 2056+ down plated trailer 1400kg= 3456kg therefore making it ok to tow on a b licence??

My other questions are- is 1400kg the weight that Bateson will downplate it too??
Once downplated is it possible to reverse it back and 'up' plate it back to the origional mam?

Many thanks for any advice !!

 

[ROG]

Hi - I have a question as I'm not sure I have my head round this right!
I am ok towing as I have b+e however my husband only has b on his license ... The majority of the time it's me who towed but just occasionally it would be helpful if he could take daughter and pony out.

So I was thinking about getting my trailer down plated...

We tow with a 54plate Kia sorrento and tow a Bateson deauville trailer..

So is this right-
Car gvw 2056+ down plated trailer 1400kg= 3456kg therefore making it ok to tow on a b licence??

My other questions are- is 1400kg the weight that Bateson will downplate it too??
Once downplated is it possible to reverse it back and 'up' plate it back to the origional mam?

Many thanks for any advice !!

A trailer can be up-plated after it has been down-plated

That trailer down plated to 1400 will leave 540 for the max load into the trailer (1400-860=540)

Hubby can drive a B+E set up under L plate rules

 

[ellis9905]

Can I just double check so I'm crystal clear can hubby drive that set up on a b licence? ( as he would be towing when I'm unable to sit with him on L plates)

Car 2056 + downplated trailer 1400kg

Many thanks

 

[ROG]

Can I just double check so I'm crystal clear can hubby drive that set up on a b licence? ( as he would be towing when I'm unable to sit with him on L plates)

Car 2056 + downplated trailer 1400kg

Many thanks

You or another B+E licence holder would need to be next to him with B+E set up such as the one you have now but when down plated to 1400 he can be on hos own

 

[ellis9905]

Thanks rog... I'm off to call Bateson as that would take a little pressure of me to have a back up driver

 

[ROG]

So I think I have got my head around my towing options but just want to check and make sure

My car:
2011 Kia Sportage AWD Diesel 2L,
GVW is 2250kg (taken from Kia website, I would need to check my car is the same as the current specifications first)
max trailer load braked is 2200kg.
Has a detachable tow bar.

I currently have a B licence and my sister has B+E as passed her test pre 1997.
Horse we want to tow is a 15hh Irish cob approx 400-500kg (am assuming 500kg as worst case until we get a more accurate idea).

I believe I could tow on my current licence a small trailer such as a Bateson derby. Trailer load would not be able to exceed 1250kg (3500kg less GVW 2250kg). If horse weighs 500kg this leaves 750kg for trailer unladen (Bateson Derby 675kg unladen). I would need to have the trailer down plated for this.
Or
I could tow as a B+E learner with my sister supervising and would be able to tow a trailer up to a maximum weight of 2200kg per my car spec.
An HB403 single horse trailer (767kg unladen) or an HB506 (920kg unladen). This would mean a trailer weight of either 1267kg for the HB403 or 1420kg for the HB506. Both of these options put me over the 3500kg limit hence the need for L plates but also within the max trailer load for my car.
We would only ever be transporting this one horse.

My questions:
Is my understanding above correct?
Can my sister supervise me even though she hasn’t passed a test but has held her licence for many years and has towed herself?
If towing as a B+E learner does the trailer have to be downplated? I am presuming not. We would need to hire a trailer rather than buy one at the moment so want to be sure.
Does anyone else tow with a detachable tow bar, are they safe for horse trailers? I expect they should be otherwise wouldn’t be for sale on the market.

Almost got it correct - on a B licence the trailer cannot be plated at more than 1250 if the vehicle has a GVW of 2250
Bateson Derby weighing 675 empty and down plated from 1700 to 1250 would leave a max trailer load of 575
IW HB401/3 weighing 780 empty and down plated from 1600 to 1250 would leave a max trailer load of 470

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving

 

[mrsbt]

Thanks so much

 

[SuperCat007]

Hi ROG, I'm confused again...!

I have two potential set ups and one further question at the end...

VW Passat at about 2000 GVW with max braked capacity 2000 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905)
Am I right in saying that to tow a 450-500 kg horse on a B licence the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 1400 to give me about 495 kg of horse space and a maximum load of 3400? Thus being under the 3500 kg limit?

Second set up: Ford Kuga at about 2200 GVW and max braked 2100 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905)
Similar calculation, but the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 12/1300 to make it work?

Further question: if I were towing with the intention of taking my B+E test i.e. as a B+E learner with supervision from someone who passed pre-1997 the only thing I would need to worry about is down-plating the trailer in both instances so that it conforms with the max towing capacity of each car? But then I don't have to worry about the whole lot being under 3500 kg because I'm a B+E learner who can tow >3500 kg anyway? IS that right??

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG, I'm confused again...!

I have two potential set ups and one further question at the end...

VW Passat at about 2000 GVW with max braked capacity 2000 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905)
Am I right in saying that to tow a 450-500 kg horse on a B licence the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 1400 to give me about 495 kg of horse space and a maximum load of 3400? Thus being under the 3500 kg limit?

Second set up: Ford Kuga at about 2200 GVW and max braked 2100 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905)
Similar calculation, but the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 12/1300 to make it work?

Further question: if I were towing with the intention of taking my B+E test i.e. as a B+E learner with supervision from someone who passed pre-1997 the only thing I would need to worry about is down-plating the trailer in both instances so that it conforms with the max towing capacity of each car? But then I don't have to worry about the whole lot being under 3500 kg because I'm a B+E learner who can tow >3500 kg anyway? IS that right??

PASSAT = correct

KUGA = correct but at 1300 it only leaves 395 for the trailer load so not an option for a 400+ horse

The plated MAM of the trailer NEVER has to conform to the vehicle towing capacity - you simply use the lower of the two figures when towing as the max actual weight = plenty of internet myths on that !

You can tow any B+E set up under B+E L plate rules + pre 1997 B+E holder is legal to supervise and does not need to be insured unless they are actually driving it

 

[SuperCat007]

Thanks so much for your swift reply again.

I see, but if I were filling the trailer up, I would have to make sure the max weight of the trailer and the weight of 2 horses (for example) didn't exceed the max towing capacity of the car? So I could tow any trailer if I had my B+E licence and not worry about down-plating, but just ensure that the trailer and it's load never exceeded the amount the car is able to tow safely?

 

[ROG]

Thanks so much for your swift reply again.

I see, but if I were filling the trailer up, I would have to make sure the max weight of the trailer and the weight of 2 horses (for example) didn't exceed the max towing capacity of the car? So I could tow any trailer if I had my B+E licence and not worry about down-plating, but just ensure that the trailer and it's load never exceeded the amount the car is able to tow safely?

2 EXAMPLES using a vehicle with a towing capacity of 2000kg

1 - trailer MAM 2500 and 1000 empty = max trailer load of 1000 (towing capacity of 2000 is lower than trailer MAM 2500)
2 - trailer MAM 1500 and 1000 empty = max trailer load of 500 (trailer MAM 1500 is lower than towing capacity 2000)

 

[SuperCat007]

Thanks, so I do only need to worry about not towing over the max capacity of the car and/or trailer if I were B+E. It'll delay my transport plans a little, but I think it'll make life a lot easier and a lot less complicated just in case we ever did get stopped for a weight check etc.

 

[ROG]

Thanks, so I do only need to worry about not towing over the max capacity of the car and/or trailer if I were B+E.

YUP - its simple with B+E - do not go over the towing capacity or the trailer plated MAM

You could always down plate a trailer for B towing then up plate it again when B+E gained but with the passat and the 505 that might sail close to the wind weight wise with a horse about 500

 

[Tosca123]

Hi, can i have some advise please. Im debating whether to keep my wagon or change my car and buy a trailer. My wagon needs a little spending on it (don't they always) and I'm not sure i really want to! But i want to be as safe as i can be towing. A 4x4 is out of the question as the car needs to be my everyday car too and i do a fair amount of miles each year.
Im looking at either the larger Ifor or bateson. The bateson is lighter but i need to research this before i buy.
When towing with an estate car what is more important, engine torque and 4 wheel drive or MKW?
The Audi A6 Allroad is 4 wheel drive GVW 2510, MKW 1880, BHP 240, Torque 500, MTW 2100. The BMW 5 series GT has very good reviews with caravans, rear wheel drive, the GVW 2545, MKW 1915, BHP 184, Torque 380nm, MTW 2100. Merc Eclass 3.0 GVW 2520, MKW 1945, BHP 265, torque 620, MTW 2100.
Im not sure of my horses exact weight but he is 17h and i reckon he must be 700kg ( will double check this) so with the ifor i will be towing 1700kg with the bateson i would be towing 1600kg. I will only be towing one horse. With the merc towing the bateson I'm just over the 85% towing rule but over with the ifor and the BMW 5 series GT i will be over the 85% rule with the ifor by nearly 100kg. I will never be towing on grass, mainly motorways. Any advise greatly received to whether i should just scrap the idea and spend the money on my wagon or think about changing my car. Thanks.

 

[ROG]

Hi, can i have some advise please. Im debating whether to keep my wagon or change my car and buy a trailer. My wagon needs a little spending on it (don't they always) and I'm not sure i really want to! But i want to be as safe as i can be towing. A 4x4 is out of the question as the car needs to be my everyday car too and i do a fair amount of miles each year.
Im looking at either the larger Ifor or bateson. The bateson is lighter but i need to research this before i buy.
When towing with an estate car what is more important, engine torque and 4 wheel drive or MKW?
The Audi A6 Allroad is 4 wheel drive GVW 2510, MKW 1880, BHP 240, Torque 500, MTW 2100. The BMW 5 series GT has very good reviews with caravans, rear wheel drive, the GVW 2545, MKW 1915, BHP 184, Torque 380nm, MTW 2100. Merc Eclass 3.0 GVW 2520, MKW 1945, BHP 265, torque 620, MTW 2100.
Im not sure of my horses exact weight but he is 17h and i reckon he must be 700kg ( will double check this) so with the ifor i will be towing 1700kg with the bateson i would be towing 1600kg. I will only be towing one horse. With the merc towing the bateson I'm just over the 85% towing rule but over with the ifor and the BMW 5 series GT i will be over the 85% rule with the ifor by nearly 100kg. I will never be towing on grass, mainly motorways. Any advise greatly received to whether i should just scrap the idea and spend the money on my wagon or think about changing my car. Thanks.

The 85% towing advice is for caravans only

I cannot help on the rest - my knowledge is limited to giving advice on the laws and rules on towing such as towing on a B licence etc

 

[Tosca123]

Thank you for the quick reply, so as long as I'm within a safe MTW i should be ok towing with the above vehicles? Im legally allowed to tow as i got my licences pre 1997.