Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

[CharlotteRS]

Great, thanks for this. I shall endeavour to educate my instructor when I see him next! Can I ask where you get your info from?
Also, do you have an opinion on towing with a non 4x4 car? my husband is concerned ours isn't up to the job, even thought the stats addd all up...

 

[ROG]

Great, thanks for this. I shall endeavour to educate my instructor when I see him next! Can I ask where you get your info from?
Also, do you have an opinion on towing with a non 4x4 car? my husband is concerned ours isn't up to the job, even thought the stats addd all up...

Vehicles are designed to tow up to a certain weight limit - manufacturers would be sued a lot if they got that wrong !
What will make a difference is the type of surface being towed on - would not recommend a non 4x4 on any sort of surface where grip is not good

My info comes from consultations with DVSA, DVLA, Traffic Police and the DfT via my MP.

If someone says something is a law or rule then ask them to prove it by showing you that in writing/text otherwise it does not exist

I cannot prove a non law

 

[ROG]

Regarding the so call law/rule where the MAM of the trailer cannot be more than the towing capacity of a vehicle it is often said that the POTENTIAL is there to exceed the towing capacity by going up to the MAM of the trailer ..... but there is no law on POTENTIAL

If there was such POTENTIAL laws then .......
Driver - why have you stopped me when I was doing 30 in this 30 limit ?
Cop - can you car do 70 ?
Driver - yes
Cop - then I arrest you for have the POTENTIAL to do 70 in this 30 limit
Cop - lets look in your boot - oh dear you have a secured rifle in here
Driver - I have just come from the gun club up the road and I have a licence for the rifle
Cop - I arrest you for the POTENTIAL to commit murder with a firearm

..... hmmmmm

 

[JuniperZ]

I'm so happy to find this thread! I've heard so many people say that you can't legally tow a trailer if it's MAM is over the car's towing limit - regardless of what weight you have in the trailer. I couldn't find anything to back this up on the gov.uk website so was thoroughly confused!

Could I do a check with two different trailers please? Looking at buying a Transporter van and want to check what we might be able to tow with it. Baring in mind pony is titchy and only weighs 350kg.

1 - What licence they hold - I would take my B + E test as guessing wouldn't be legal with just B
2 - 1610kg
3 - 2800kg
4 - GTW = 4500KG max trailer weight = 2000kg
5 - Either Bateson derby lightweight (max gross weight 1700kg) or Ifor 506 (max gross weight 2600kg)
6 - 675kg or 920Kg

Thank you so much!

Jess

 

[ROG]

I'm so happy to find this thread! I've heard so many people say that you can't legally tow a trailer if it's MAM is over the car's towing limit - regardless of what weight you have in the trailer. I couldn't find anything to back this up on the gov.uk website so was thoroughly confused!

Could I do a check with two different trailers please? Looking at buying a Transporter van and want to check what we might be able to tow with it. Baring in mind pony is titchy and only weighs 350kg.

1 - What licence they hold - I would take my B + E test as guessing wouldn't be legal with just B
2 - 1610kg
3 - 2800kg
4 - GTW = 4500KG max trailer weight = 2000kg
5 - Either Bateson derby lightweight (max gross weight 1700kg) or Ifor 506 (max gross weight 2600kg)
6 - 675kg or 920Kg

Thank you so much!

Jess

With a 2800 GVW that leaves only 750kg max plated MAM for a trailer on a B licence so B+E rules for towing any horse trailer.

 

[JuniperZ]

With a 2800 GVW that leaves only 750kg max plated MAM for a trailer on a B licence so B+E rules for towing any horse trailer.

Yep thought that would be the case. would both those trailers be ok though with that vehicle and a B+E license?

 

[ROG]

Yep thought that would be the case. would both those trailers be ok though with that vehicle and a B+E license?

yes

 

[{97702}]

Hi Rog, I will freely admit that I am getting myself confused (or being lazy??!!).... I've got a full B&E licence (I'm old, passed my test in 1988!!!) - can I tow a single horse weighing approx 550kg with a VW Passat Estate? Kerbweight 1422kg towing capacity 1500kg?

I don't have a trailer yet - I don't like single horse trailers as I know they have a reputation for being unstable - so I strongly suspect the answer is no with any double trailer...

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog, I will freely admit that I am getting myself confused (or being lazy??!!).... I've got a full B&E licence (I'm old, passed my test in 1988!!!) - can I tow a single horse weighing approx 550kg with a VW Passat Estate? Kerbweight 1422kg towing capacity 1500kg?

I don't have a trailer yet - I don't like single horse trailers as I know they have a reputation for being unstable - so I strongly suspect the answer is no with any trailer...

Just make sure the weight of the empty trailer and whatever you load inside it do not exceed 1500 (or the plated weight of the trailer = likely to be higher than 1500) and you are good to go

 

[{97702}]

Just make sure the weight of the empty trailer and whatever you load inside it do not exceed 1500 (or the plated weight of the trailer = likely to be higher than 1500) and you are good to go

Is that gross weight or unladen weight? What are your thoughts on single horse trailers and stability please?

 

[ROG]

Is that gross weight or unladen weight? What are your thoughts on single horse trailers and stability please?

actual weight of trailer + load in trailer must not exceed 1500

Single trailers are very stable

 

[{97702}]

Thank you

 

[cavalier123]

Hi Rog, I wonder if you would mind confirming if this setup would work please:

Car is Ford Mondeo 2.0L Estate and Horsebox would be Bateson Derby. I think I have most, but not all of the figures.

1. B+E Licence
2. This is the one weight I can't find - neither in handbook or on vehicle....
3. GVW 2290
4. Gross Train Weight 4090
5. 1700 Gross weight
6. 675 Unladen weight

I will mostly be travelling one pony at approx 500Kg, but occasionally will want to take the two and combined they weigh probably 1000, so would be very close to what I think is the maximum towing capacity of vehicle at 1,800 Kg? Is this really risky to be so close to the max? I could get a different car maybe? Only I need one that is very economical as will be only vehicle and I think the Mondeo seems to fit that requirement more so than others...

Thanks for your help Any thoughts on more appropriate vehicle would be welcome too

Thank you

 

[ROG]

Hi Rog, I wonder if you would mind confirming if this setup would work please:

Car is Ford Mondeo 2.0L Estate and Horsebox would be Bateson Derby. I think I have most, but not all of the figures.

1. B+E Licence
2. This is the one weight I can't find - neither in handbook or on vehicle....
3. GVW 2290
4. Gross Train Weight 4090
5. 1700 Gross weight
6. 675 Unladen weight

I will mostly be travelling one pony at approx 500Kg, but occasionally will want to take the two and combined they weigh probably 1000, so would be very close to what I think is the maximum towing capacity of vehicle at 1,800 Kg? Is this really risky to be so close to the max? I could get a different car maybe? Only I need one that is very economical as will be only vehicle and I think the Mondeo seems to fit that requirement more so than others...

Thanks for your help Any thoughts on more appropriate vehicle would be welcome too

Thank you

Legal set up confirmed

1000 + 675 = 1675 so just inside max trailer MAM of 1700 - but very close to the max

The max actual limit here is 1700 not 1800 because the trailer plate of 1700 is less than the towing capacity of 1800

You can get trailers with a higher MAM than 1700 but they usually have a higher empty weight so you gain nothing
Example would be a trailer plated at 2400 with an empty weight of 900 leaving a max trailer load of 900 with a 1800 tow limit

 

[cavalier123]

Legal set up confirmed

1000 + 675 = 1675 so just inside max trailer MAM of 1700 - but very close to the max

The max actual limit here is 1700 not 1800 because the trailer plate of 1700 is less than the towing capacity of 1800

You can get trailers with a higher MAM than 1700 but they usually have a higher empty weight so you gain nothing
Example would be a trailer plated at 2400 with an empty weight of 900 leaving a max trailer load of 900 with a 1800 tow limit

Thanks Rog!

Is it risky to load trailer to the max of it's MAM like that? I wouldn't put anything else in it, apart from maybe 2kg haynets each, everything else could go in the car. Maybe I need to look for a car that will tow more for the odd occasion I want to take the two ponies...

 

[ROG]

Thanks Rog!

Is it risky to load trailer to the max of it's MAM like that? I wouldn't put anything else in it, apart from maybe 2kg haynets each, everything else could go in the car. Maybe I need to look for a car that will tow more for the odd occasion I want to take the two ponies...

Not risky at all - the weights listed are designed to be safe at their max

 

[cavalier123]

Not risky at all - the weights listed are designed to be safe at their max

Thanks Rog! So having checked weights, I've carried on reading about towing with a Mondeo Estate and finding posts saying not safe regardless of weights due to the vehicle being so long the distribution of the weight makes it not safe :-( Is this true or myth, can anyone shed any light on this. The Mondeo is an estate 2011 and I was planning on buying it tomorrow, now I'm not sure if I should.... Any opinions appreciated greatly!

 

[ROG]

Thanks Rog! So having checked weights, I've carried on reading about towing with a Mondeo Estate and finding posts saying not safe regardless of weights due to the vehicle being so long the distribution of the weight makes it not safe :-( Is this true or myth, can anyone shed any light on this. The Mondeo is an estate 2011 and I was planning on buying it tomorrow, now I'm not sure if I should.... Any opinions appreciated greatly!

First I have heard of this being an unsafe towing vehicle !

 

[Tabbers]

Hi all. I have had numerous sleepless nights trying to work out the towing relations and have read advice with great interest. I am a b licence holder and have just bought a new cheval liberte gold 1 single trailer after selling my lovely but old and expensive lorry. I am terrified of taking a test so hope I can tow without it after some lessons. I've received this advice from the National Towing and Trailer assoc (ntta) : You have raised a very valid point from your findings on the GOV site - it does indeed seem to go against what we are advising.

Please see the email below that we received from VOSA’s National Enforcement & Compliance Team: -

“Hi
In response to your email I would like to confirm that when a vehicle is towing a trailer, it is the actual weight of the vehicle, trailer and load which is important in determining a vehicle’s compliance with legal weight thresholds, not the potential carrying capacity. Therefore, it would be irrelevant whether the maximum permitted weight of the trailer was above that which the car can tow, it is only the 'in use' weight which can be considered.
Obviously this seeks to clarify weight thresholds only as other considerations may preclude for example category of driving licence held.
I hope this answers your query. If not please get back to me with further information.
Regards
Caroline
National Enforcement & Compliance Team
Operations Directorate”

So your trailer (unladen) weighs 720kg and horse say, 650kg, giving us a total 1370kg. You could technically then have a tow vehicle with a MAM of 2129kg to keep you under the 3500kg that your B licence allows.

Seems to go against the gov and other sites recommendations. What are your thoughts?

Thank you!

 

[ROG]

Hi all. I have had numerous sleepless nights trying to work out the towing relations and have read advice with great interest. I am a b licence holder and have just bought a new cheval liberte gold 1 single trailer after selling my lovely but old and expensive lorry. I am terrified of taking a test so hope I can tow without it after some lessons. I've received this advice from the National Towing and Trailer assoc (ntta) : You have raised a very valid point from your findings on the GOV site - it does indeed seem to go against what we are advising.

Please see the email below that we received from VOSA’s National Enforcement & Compliance Team: -

“Hi
In response to your email I would like to confirm that when a vehicle is towing a trailer, it is the actual weight of the vehicle, trailer and load which is important in determining a vehicle’s compliance with legal weight thresholds, not the potential carrying capacity. Therefore, it would be irrelevant whether the maximum permitted weight of the trailer was above that which the car can tow, it is only the 'in use' weight which can be considered.
Obviously this seeks to clarify weight thresholds only as other considerations may preclude for example category of driving licence held.
I hope this answers your query. If not please get back to me with further information.
Regards
Caroline
National Enforcement & Compliance Team
Operations Directorate”

So your trailer (unladen) weighs 720kg and horse say, 650kg, giving us a total 1370kg. You could technically then have a tow vehicle with a MAM of 2129kg to keep you under the 3500kg that your B licence allows.

Seems to go against the gov and other sites recommendations. What are your thoughts?

Thank you!

They are referring to weight laws not licence laws so they are correct in respect of that

They do rightly mention the consideration for the licences

When the DVSA (old VOSA) do a roadside check they can only prosecute for weight violations and the police if in attendance can prosecute for driving licence violations

 

[ROG]

Hi all. I have had numerous sleepless nights trying to work out the towing relations and have read advice with great interest. I am a b licence holder and have just bought a new cheval liberte gold 1 single trailer after selling my lovely but old and expensive lorry. I am terrified of taking a test so hope I can tow without it after some lessons.

http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/single-mare-foal.html = is that your trailer ?

What is the weight of what you need to load into the trailer ?

What is the GVW and towing capacity of your current car/vehicle ?

 

[Tabbers]

Hi ROG. Yes, that is the trailer. It weights 720kg and my horse weights 650. Mam of trailer is 1600kg. Car is a Freelander TD4 van 2002 model. It's kerb weight is 1620, gross weight 2020kg and towing capacity is 1800kg as far as I can work out.

 

[ROG]

Hi ROG. Yes, that is the trailer. It weights 720kg and my horse weights 650. Mam of trailer is 1600kg. Car is a Freelander TD4 van 2002 model. It's kerb weight is 1620, gross weight 2020kg and towing capacity is 1800kg as far as I can work out.

Thanks for all the relevant figures

GVW of 2020 leaves 1480 for the trailer MAM
Down plating trailer from 1600 to 1480 with an empty weight of 720 leaves 760 for the trailer load

Why did you not get it down plated at point of sale if it was new from a dealer ?

 

[Tabbers]

I asked for it to be down plated but the dealer said it didn't need to be and directed me to the NTTA who gave me the same advice. I then purchased the trailer based on this advice. I have since found your clinic and details on Gov site and went back to NTTA to clarify (original post detail). It seems I'm a victim of poor advice. Can I still down plate? Thanks again.

 

[ROG]

Can I still down plate? Thanks again.

YES - contact manufacturer or dealer where you bought it - preferably the dealer so you can point then to this thread !

 

[Tabbers]

I really appreciate your advice. Helps me to understand why I was getting such conflicting information!

 

[Tabbers]

YES - contact manufacturer or dealer where you bought it - preferably the dealer so you can point then to this thread !

ROG - I have been pointed to this quote on the Gov website (https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules): A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.
No mention of MAM! If you then follow the checker tools it talks about the MAM. Very confusing!

 

[ROG]

ROG - I have been pointed to this quote on the Gov website (https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules): A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.
No mention of MAM! If you then follow the checker tools it talks about the MAM. Very confusing!

Some parts of the Gov sites either missed out the word MAM of the caveat stating that all weights are MAM ones - I have pointed this out to them many times and ...... they changed nothing !!

Is it any wonder that this thread is now approaching 3000 posts

 

[Tabbers]

Absolutely! I also wonder how many poor people are out there driving and thinking they are legal when actually they are falling foul of the law. I am a person who researches everything and Im glad that I did in this case. You would have thought that the information given by the dealer and the National Towing association is right... Ho hum!!

 

[Michen]

ROG

Any ideas. If I were to buy a 3.5 lorry which had no MOT, how could I get it to a garage (assuming I can't get insurance for it with no MOT). Can garages pick them up on trade plates with no mot or tax?