Welfare in Sport - musings..

ycbm

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Hmm I remember it differently, there was a lot of outrage about his riding!

AFTER it was written about because of his bad mannered response, that wasn't why the thread was started.

I don't remember any "outrage". And his riding was very odd!

In a social media age you can't post pictures of yourself doing odd things to sell clothes and expect no comment.
 

SO1

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Are what are the responsibilities of vets in advising people who keep competition horses in this manner.

I don't actually think the average horse owner who does not have access to that sort of wealth or competition horse would actually be so influenced to follow that sort of routine. Most people don't have a groom who can hand graze a horse for 2 hours or have time to do it themselves alongside work and riding, yard jobs etc.

I would not have thought there would be many leisure horses that never get turnout and how standard it is for horses at pro yards to never get turnout even if the weather is optimal.
 

Mule

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Are what are the responsibilities of vets in advising people who keep competition horses in this manner.

I don't actually think the average horse owner who does not have access to that sort of wealth or competition horse would actually be so influenced to follow that sort of routine. Most people don't have a groom who can hand graze a horse for 2 hours or have time to do it themselves alongside work and riding, yard jobs etc.

I would not have thought there would be many leisure horses that never get turnout and how standard it is for horses at pro yards to never get turnout even if the weather is optimal.
I can't imagine making a habit of daily 2 hour hand grazing. I'd say anyone who can't afford someone to do it for them would throw the horse out in to a paddock, regardless of its value.
 

maisie06

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Do you mean that I shouldn’t feel concerned about horses being kept stabled 24/7 because farm animals are badly treated also?

And I think there are many many horse owners, professional and amateur, who believe themselves to be educated, who think it’s ok to keep their horses stabled for long periods of time. In my opinion this is not ok and it’s a massive welfare issue.

I 100% agree, Such a cruel practice to keep horses stabled 24/7
 

ycbm

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I've just posted this on another thread.


I'd rather horse were stood in a dry stable all day than stood in the wet round a ring feeder all day. And I know from close observation of horses at home in a big field and a big barn that most horses with a ready food supply move a hell of a lot less than most (not all) "got to be 24/7 turnout" advocates think.

And although I am not advocating it for any horse, I've probably personally seen upwards of 150 horses which were kept in for 6 months of the year with a minimum of an hour's ridden exercise a day who did not appear to be in any way unhappy with the situation.
.
 

Gallop_Away

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I only just noticed this thread but my reply on another thread is also relevant to this discussion so I've copied and pasted it below

How anyone can think it acceptable to keep an animal in a 12ft x 12ft box for 22hours a day is beyond me. I would sooner sell my horses if I couldn't provide adequate daily turnout.
Turnout is about so much more than physical exercise. It's about allowing a horse time to be a horse. Play, roll, and socialise with other horses. Exercising a horse can not replicate this. It's as much about a horse's mental well being as much as their physical.
I am aware that competition horses tend to be stabled but I think this is a very dated way of thinking and I have a huge amount of respect for people like Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardin who compete at some of the highest levels, yet their horses get turned out.
Racehorses are usually stabled and I think it's no coincidence that ulcers and stable vices are generally fairly common amongst them. Some of it is due to how they are fed but many vices can be attributed to boredom and stress.
People can attempt to justify it all they want but ultimately it is not natural for a social herd animal such as a horse, that is designed to be moving around grazing for anything up to 20 hours a day, to be confined to a stable for the majority of the time. I wouldn't lock my dog in a cage for up to 22hours a day so why on earth would I do it to my horses? It's cruel in my opinion.
And yes I'm fully aware there isn't anything natural about a human hopping on top of a horse and riding it, but ultimately we have chosen to domesticate these animals, and we owe it to them to do our utmost for their natural health and well-being.
Our winter paddock is trashed by the gateway by March, but the paddocks are rested throughout the summer to recover. Good land management and rotating paddocks means they recover well over the summer and are ready to go again by October.
I think it's sad that more and more yards seem to be restricting turnout during winter. I am so thankful to have a YO were turnout is readily available all year. I have happy healthy mud ponies coming in at night. The way it should be in my humble opinion.
 

Velcrobum

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It was about a guy who was using pictures of himself sat in a very peculiar hollow backed way on a grossly overbent dressage horse to sell his range of very tight fitting sports wear.

The "outrage" was not about his post but about his very rude reply to a forum member who dared to comment on his post that he was not giving a very good example of dressage training. She was so cross about being called names by him that she then posted on here. Fair game, I thought.

Gosh I missed that one anybody want to give me a clue where to find it please.
 

HashRouge

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I've just posted this on another thread.


I'd rather horse were stood in a dry stable all day than stood in the wet round a ring feeder all day. And I know from close observation of horses at home in a big field and a big barn that most horses with a ready food supply move a hell of a lot less than most (not all) "got to be 24/7 turnout" advocates think.

And although I am not advocating it for any horse, I've probably personally seen upwards of 150 horses which were kept in for 6 months of the year with a minimum of an hour's ridden exercise a day who did not appear to be in any way unhappy with the situation.
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I'm not a fan of horses stood in the wet around a ring feeder either. I've got less grass than usual this year (for a whole host of complicated reasons) and am just getting to the point where they probably need a bit more hay than I can manage to lug down to the field (it's about as far as it could be from the barn). I don't want a ring feeder out as, despite the amount of rain we've had recently, my field is not that wet and I'd like to keep it that way. And I certainly don't want my mud rash prone mare standing in a bog all day. So I think I'm going to start bringing in during the day so that they can have a massive haynet in their nice dry stables instead.
 
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ycbm

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Posted on both threads on this subject at the moment.

I would not keep a horse in a way which makes it unhappy. I've seen unhappy horses spending too much time in a box and unhappy horses which dislike the company of others, unhappy horses standing around in soggy ground and unhappy horses who will injure themselves to get out of a field and back into a stable.

There is no one size fits all for horses and it's perfectly possibly too keep the the right horse with the right management very happy and healthy with no turnout.
.
 

Goldenstar

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I’m wondering what people‘s thoughts are on police horses and the Queen’s troop, who as I understand it don’t get turnout either? Or do they?

It depends on the police force some do get turnout but it won’t be daily because police horses work quite long hours .
 

milliepops

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I think the company of other horses is the most important. Horses living in, where they can interact with other horses via sight and touch will be happier than a horse on it's own in a field.
was just thinking this. there are now 4 in 24/7 in Hospital Corner on my yard -
1 resting an injury
1 healing a wound
1 companion
1 with mud fever (not mine, phew!!)
the constant companionship and routine means they are completely settled, I am amazed at how well they are all coping but it just shows how they can adapt given the right circumstances.
 

Gallop_Away

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Posted on both threads on this subject at the moment.

I would not keep a horse in a way which makes it unhappy. I've seen unhappy horses spending too much time in a box and unhappy horses which dislike the company of others, unhappy horses standing around in soggy ground and unhappy horses who will injure themselves to get out of a field and back into a stable.

There is no one size fits all for horses and it's perfectly possibly too keep the the right horse with the right management very happy and healthy with no turnout.
.

I have responded to you on the other thread :)
 

Gallop_Away

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I'm not a fan of horses stood in the wet around a ring feeder either. I've got less grass than usual this year (for a whole host of complicated reasons) and am just getting to the point where they probably need a bit more hay than I can manage to lug down to the field (it's about as far as it could be from the barn). I don't want a ring feeder out as, despite the amount of rain we've had recently, my field is not that wet and I'd like to keep it that way. And I certainly don't want my mud rash prone mare standing in a bog all day. So I think I'm going to start bringing in during the day so that they can have a massive haynet in their nice dry stables instead.

I wouldn't want this for mine either to be fair. Mine are currently out from 8am until 6pm though less if I am riding them, but a minimum of 6hrs a day usually.
They are happy to go out in the morning and spend the day grazing around their paddock which thankfully as it is on a hill holds up well during the winter months. Then they usually make their way to the gate by 5pm wanting back in.
 

Lyle

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I do wonder if we are on the cusp of overhauling the 'idyllic'equestrian property set up- usually rows of small, flat-ish, unstimulating turnout fields. **Please note, I'm going to speak in general terms, not individual cases**
As mentioned above, these can cause issues with horses standing around in a bog eating in the one spot all day (We all know the host of vet issues this can cause) and it can be difficult to maintain the land. I think it's fine for hard working, pro horses who have their days filled with riding/walker/grooming and get the chance to interact with other horses. However, I don't think it's much better than stabling for the liesure rider's horse, who perhaps lives in this little square all week, no interaction with other horses over the fence, and gets ridden once/twice a week. We have to think about the quality of life when we are not with them, is our living arrangement for them meeting ALL their needs?
Proper Track systems eliminate much of this- especially if horses are capable of group turnout. One solid, hard standing loafing area can accomodate a large number of horses, the track can be made with varying terrain and surfaces, and if water is positioned at the other end, the horses will move. And the field in the centre stays nice until ready to be grazed (or even cut for hay). I know it can be an expensive feat, but then lovely horse fencing can be very expensive per metre, and by cutting down the individual fields, there is a possibilty to save there.
Whilst I don't have a track system, (we have plenty of land) we run mobs of horses in very large fields, all which lead back to the house/stable yard. The horses travel up/down hills, shelter in stands of pines, loaf on the flat near the house, and drink/swim in the dams. Even my ridden horses/stallion live like this, and the benefits have been enourmous, particularly for the youngsters. When we first started developing the property, we were running small pairs fields. A few things changed my mind, and it was a big deal to change the fencing and stick them all into small mobs, but I've never looked back.
 

AdorableAlice

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It depends on the police force some do get turnout but it won’t be daily because police horses work quite long hours .

I very nearly sold a big young horse to the City police earlier this year. Their horses actually work off grass through the summer and are not stabled if they are happy out. Several other police forces contacted me about the horse as well, all of them had turn out availability which surprised me.
 

Bellaboo18

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I think the company of other horses is the most important. Horses living in, where they can interact with other horses via sight and touch will be happier than a horse on it's own in a field.

100% agree.

I think we anthropomorphize too much. To me horses need other equine company, food, water, safety and movement but there's lots of ways this can be achieved. For me as I work, have other commitments and have leisure horses on DIY livery, I know I wouldn't be able to keep happy horses without access to good turnout.
 

Boulty

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I personally wouldn't want to keep a horse without a way of giving it SOME turnout time every day. Ideally with access to other horses. Whether this is achieved in a field, a surfaced pen, a hardstanding area or track system will depend on yard facilities & what the horse is happy with.

The Welsh D I used to have absolutely WOULD have rather been stood at a round bale in the mud than in a stable. He would rather this with company than be stood in a large barn with company. He would rather be in a muddy field than on a hardstanding area. (The way his brain worked hardstanding & barns didn't count as "turnout" simply a larger stable... Track systems were acceptable presumably because he could move around to different areas & charge around if he wanted) He would be happy enough to come in for some hay for part of the day, especially if grass was sparse but hated being in all night (& so he often had overnight turnout in winter to keep him mentally happy). Much trial & error was involved in discovering these things. Methods of communication included trying to open the gate to the field from the hardstanding, standing at it weaving & nudging it dramatically, in the stable he would weave or literally launch his headcollar at you or rattle it dramatically if he thought he'd been in for too long (even if he could touch & groom other horses, which was his preferred stable setup). He also used to throw similar tantrums when corralled when competing to demand to be taken for walks around the coralling field.

Current pony is the type who would probably be quite happy with a communal barn & hardstanding area to mooch in over winter so long as there was hay & friends as he's not the biggest fan of mud apart from to roll in. Him & the rest of the herd have to be hurried along & prodded to get them into the field (complete with hedges, trees, slopes & other interesting features) in the morning at the moment (& in fact when we had snow & vile weather last year they all stayed in til lunchtime & I had to more or less chase him out of the stable to mooch around the yard whilst I mucked out as he was quite happy being warm & dry in there)
 
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Winters100

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I think there’s a bit of responsibility there though, don’t you? Not to be perfect, but if you know kids are following your every word, and copying you, you wouldn’t ride without a hat, for example?

I don't really agree with this, because I see it as our responsibility as parents to influence our children, to control such things as safety equipment, and to discuss important issues. We are responsible for making them see that just because they admire someone for certain talents or achievements, for example an accomplished actor, it does not mean that this person is a role model in all areas. I would not expect every actor to refrain from drinking excessively or smoking, it is my job to influence and educate my children about such things, not theirs. I would find it irresponsible if top riders were to publicly venture opinions that safety equipment was not necessary, but they should not be forced to wear a hat just to be a good example. If my children want to ride then it is my job to ensure that they use whatever equipment I require.

In my opinion too many excuses are made in the area of raising children. If they are fat it is the school meals, if they smoke it is because some actor or singer smokes, and if they behave badly it is because they saw violence on television. It is simply not true, if I had any one of those issues with mine I would consider it 100% my fault, and my responsibility to rectify.
 

NR88

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I agree that parents/guardians are responsible for the children BUT when you look at some of the equestrian "insta famous influenzers" that are popular it's clear that isn't working!

No idea how you govern it but less time spent watching on Instagram and tiktok and more time doing and living would go a long way to helping in my humble opinion.
 
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