Welfare issues with polo?

Mariposa said:
Wow - so you are saying that all of us polo player rip our ponies mouths to shreds?

This is one of our ponies at 19 yrs old, he actually retired last autumn as we were concerned about his arthritis - but here he is in a gag and running reins, there is no contact on the lower rein as he pulls forward, he is going sweetly. So does it look like I'm hauling him around? Does he look neglected? A welfare case?

Enough with the sweeping generalisations!

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No, but the chubster behind you on the grey could lose a few pounds to make life a little bit easier for his horse.
 
blazingsaddles said:
No, but the chubster behind you on the grey could lose a few pounds to make life a little bit easier for his horse.
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Ah that's cool, name calling! The guy riding behind me is an argentine polo groom, standing in for his patron - and rides beautifully. If we want to get into a discussion about overweight riders no discipline escapes that one ( well maybe racing..!)
 
Mariposa said:
Ah that's cool, name calling! The guy riding behind me is an argentine polo groom, standing in for his patron - and rides beautifully. If we want to get into a discussion about overweight riders no discipline escapes that one ( well maybe racing..!)
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Apologies - that was out of order. He may well 'ride beautifully' in your eyes but the horses physiology may beg to differ (eventually).
 
blazingsaddles said:
Apologies - that was out of order. He may well 'ride beautifully' in your eyes but the horses physiology may beg to differ (eventually).
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Slightly larger polo player playing for a max of 7 mins at a time, versus an slightly larger total beginner riding for an hour at a riding school. Which does more damage in the long run?
 
Some of the business types I saw on the play polo days and low goal matches were quite stocky and easily 15 or 16 stone. Local riding schools round here who in reality have bigger horses with more bone have a limit of 13 stone.

Let me put in another way. If I posted and said I am a 15 stone man learning to ride, would a 15 2 tb be suitable? What do you think the general response on the forum would be?
 
criso said:
Some of the business types I saw on the play polo days and low goal matches were quite stocky and easily 15 or 16 stone. Local riding schools round here who in reality have bigger horses with more bone have a limit of 13 stone.

Let me put in another way. If I posted and said I am a 15 stone man learning to ride, would a 15 2 tb be suitable? What do you think the general response on the forum would be?
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Mm and I suppose it could also be argued that it is under close supervision at a riding school also. Any hauling on mouths and leaning on mouths with 15 stone of weight is going to be closely monitored (hopefully). That's not the case on the field during polo.
 
PollyP99 said:
The fatist card now, we really are dragging this one out...
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I didn't say fat, I said stocky. A man of 6' or taller who is well built, say a fit rugby playing type, could easily weigh 16 stone.

As an owner of tbs I do think people underestimate their weight carrying capabilities and get annoyed when people on here talk about 9 stone as a limit but even I would say that 16 stone on a small lightly built one is pushing it.
 
teapot said:
Slightly larger polo player playing for a max of 7 mins at a time, versus an slightly larger total beginner riding for an hour at a riding school. Which does more damage in the long run?
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In a riding school you'll (hopefully) be taught how to ride effectively. In polo you're taught to use the horse as a platform for the sport with the sport as the focus not the riding. You have to be really very heavy or very unlucky on a horse to do it damage in an hours session at a slow (controlled) pace. I don't know many RSs with weight limits that would allow the average polo player on any size TB! Many even have a blanket 14 stone limit for even the cobs and hunters these days.
 
There's a difference between poor riding being spotted and steps taken to correct it - as you'd expect/hope in a decent riding school - and poor riding being accepted as par for the course. Now, I don't know for sure whether poor riding in polo (which would include hauling on mouths) is noticed and corrected as a rule. Is it? The impression I am getting is that it isn't.

ETA: Good riding is not exactly the same as effective riding, of course. In polo, effective presumably means goals whether or not the horse is ridden sympathetically or not.
 
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I'm quite intrigued by people making definitive judgements based on photographs. There's a picture of me on my 15hh Connie where for some reason (angle of the picture?) I look massive - at the time I was about nine and a half stone but I look enormous.
If someone had taken a head shot photo of my pony and my OH's cob last week it would have shown two horses with ears flat back, heads thrown up, mouths open, looking very uncomfortable. Come to think of it, the whole picture could have been interpreted as me pulling my pony with the left rein, not sitting particularly well...the story behind it was simply that OH's cob took serious exception to being overtaken on the lane by my pony.
OK, we were not engaging in any sort of potentially dangerous competitive sport but I hope that some of you can see what I'm saying here. There are times when the camera doesn't lie and lots of times when it is very economical with the truth.

If heavy people and poor riding are at the root of the problem with polo, then surely reducing the tack wouldn't solve it?
 
Nancykitt said:
I'm quite intrigued by people making definitive judgements based on photographs. There's a picture of me on my 15hh Connie where for some reason (angle of the picture?) I look massive - at the time I was about nine and a half stone but I look enormous.
If someone had taken a head shot photo of my pony and my OH's cob last week it would have shown two horses with ears flat back, heads thrown up, mouths open, looking very uncomfortable. Come to think of it, the whole picture could have been interpreted as me pulling my pony with the left rein, not sitting particularly well...the story behind it was simply that OH's cob took serious exception to being overtaken on the lane by my pony.
OK, we were not engaging in any sort of potentially dangerous competitive sport but I hope that some of you can see what I'm saying here. There are times when the camera doesn't lie and lots of times when it is very economical with the truth.

If heavy people and poor riding are at the root of the problem with polo, then surely reducing the tack wouldn't solve it?
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It's not just based on photos. It's plain to see in videos and when you watch live.
 
Nancykitt said:
If someone had taken a head shot photo of my pony and my OH's cob last week it would have shown two horses with ears flat back, heads thrown up, mouths open, looking very uncomfortable. Come to think of it, the whole picture could have been interpreted as me pulling my pony with the left rein, not sitting particularly well...the story behind it was simply that OH's cob took serious exception to being overtaken on the lane by my pony.
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I agree about riders weight but I take it you you and your OH were on loose reins and hadn't taken a hold to control the disgruntled horses? It's just that when my horses throw their heads up at each other (loose) they don't open their mouths.
 
Moomin1 said:
It's not just based on photos. It's plain to see in videos and when you watch live.
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Where do you watch polo? Perhaps we could get one of the players you've seen to comment on this thread.

It seems to me that whilst the polo supporters on here are very much open about the fact that not every player is the most exquisite of rider, much like in all disciplines, you seem to be of the opinion that all polo players haul their ponies around, can't ride well and all ponies are welfare cases. I'd be intrigued to hear which players have given you rather warped opinion.
 
Mariposa said:
Where do you watch polo? Perhaps we could get one of the players you've seen to comment on this thread.

It seems to me that whilst the polo supporters on here are very much open about the fact that not every player is the most exquisite of rider, much like in all disciplines, you seem to be of the opinion that all polo players haul their ponies around, can't ride well and all ponies are welfare cases. I'd be intrigued to hear which players have given you rather warped opinion.
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Yet again, more rubbish spouted. WHERE do I say ALL polo players? Nowhere. I said it's common to see. I also didn't mention anything about them being welfare cases.

I don't watch polo - I don't like it. But I have seen it being played somewhere locally to me on a number of occasions. In any case, it's irrelevant - all you need to do is click on Youtube to see that it's a common sight.

I wouldn't have to go and physically watch grand prix dressage regularly to be entitled to form an opinion on rollkur.
 
amandap said:
I agree about riders weight but I take it you you and your OH were on loose reins and hadn't taken a hold to control the disgruntled horses? It's just that when my horses throw their heads up at each other (loose) they don't open their mouths.
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We were on the buckle end of the rein strolling home after a very relaxing hack. My pony is a baby and Cob is very much the alpha. Cob was not happy about being overtaken and actually went to bite pony. It probably didn't last more than a second and then all was nice and friendly again. It made me jump just a little so I grabbed the reins but didn't actually have any contact with the mouth. The 'ears back' angry look was all down to the horses.

I'm aware that there are videos of stuff around that provide more secure evidence, I was simply trying to make the point that people making judgements based solely on photographs can have its problems.


As far as the wider argument is concerned, it now seems to have come down to the fact that some think there are more welfare issues with polo because there is (apparently) a lot of evidence out there re. horses wrapped up in miles of tack, putting their ears back, looking unhappy, etc. No-one is denying that there is very poor practice in all equestrian sports.
So are we saying that there is more poor practice in polo than dressage, show jumping, eventing, Western competitions, showing, etc etc?
I think it's actually a very hard thing to quantify, especially as in the past I have been assured by people that there's much undesirable stuff, linked to these sports, going on behind closed doors. Just a thought.
 
fburton said:
There's a difference between poor riding being spotted and steps taken to correct it - as you'd expect/hope in a decent riding school - and poor riding being accepted as par for the course. Now, I don't know for sure whether poor riding in polo (which would include hauling on mouths) is noticed and corrected as a rule. Is it? The impression I am getting is that it isn't.

ETA: Good riding is not exactly the same as effective riding, of course. In polo, effective presumably means goals whether or not the horse is ridden sympathetically or not.
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Not just goals but placement of ponies, being one step ahead of the ball, getting the horse on the right side of the ball in terms of lines etc. Though I'd agree that's more game playing than riding per se. Pointless looking like you're doing an elementary BD if you're left 3 minutes behind the flow of the game...

I vividly remember in my lessons (being one of the two girls who had ridden before, the two guys had never ridden) being told to stop kissing the saddle with my backside and ride like I wanted to play polo, not a dressage test.

Out of interest, do those of you opposing polo think the same of photos of the King's Troop on their musical drive? That's not overly pleasing to watch at times either!
 
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teapot said:
Out of interest, do those of you opposing polo think the same of photos of the King's Troop on their musical drive? That's not overly pleasing to watch at times either!
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I am not opposed to Polo just worry about the horses and their mouths mainly. Obviously there is good, not so good and b**y awful riding. I find the King's Troop and other similar events uncomfortable at times as well!
Like all horsemanship there is good, bad very bad and fab in riding and care of the horses I am sure. The reliance on power/force to stop horses is at an extreme in Polo though possibly?
 
I too worked as a polo groom.
The majority of the horses lived out year round, they all had well fitting tack and the best quality boots you could buy.
They were seen by vets when needed, saddle fitters, "back" people, dentists.
They had a extensive fitness programme pre season and were correctly cooled off after each match.
Absolutely each and every one of them loved playing, if they didn't then they were rehomed to hacking and PC homes.
Many of them were failed race horses, without a doubt polo gave them a better future than many failed racehorses get.
Yes, they weren't smothered in kisses or bling or stuffed with treats til they were fit to burst but they were happier, much healthier and lived a more natural life than the majority of other horses in this country.
Unless you've worked in this industry then you have absolutely no right to comment on this thread!
 
tabithakat64 said:
I too worked as a polo groom.
The majority of the horses lived out year round, they all had well fitting tack and the best quality boots you could buy.
They were seen by vets when needed, saddle fitters, "back" people, dentists.
They had a extensive fitness programme pre season and were correctly cooled off after each match.
Absolutely each and every one of them loved playing, if they didn't then they were rehomed to hacking and PC homes.
Many of them were failed race horses, without a doubt polo gave them a better future than many failed racehorses get.
Yes, they weren't smothered in kisses or bling or stuffed with treats til they were fit to burst but they were happier, much healthier and lived a more natural life than the majority of other horses in this country.
Unless you've worked in this industry then you have absolutely no right to comment on this thread!
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Urgh...yet more 'unless you have worked in the industry you have no right to comment' rubbish. So, I refer to my previous point...does someone have to have competed at grand prix dressage to comment about rollkur? Does someone have to have neglected a horse to comment about starvation? Or allowed their horse to graze on ragwort to comment about the dangers?
 
Just to add I think rollkur is a dreadful practice but don't think polo is in the same league at all.
From what I've read on this thread (and no I haven't worked in the equine industry at all) it seems polo ponies have a nicer life than some other equine competitors - eg,dressage horses in 24/7 except when being ridden, mouths strapped down, tongues turning blue - not saying all are kept like this but these have been examples. I think Carl Hester is wonderful,as he advocates turnout - in a recent article he stated he was aware this is unusual and was a reason behind his decision not to sell a top horse abroad as he didn't think it would cope with being stabled all the time, when his are turned out). From what I have seen at polo the horses do seem to enjoy playing. During my lesson my horse was super and basically seemed to set me up for a shot - I swear it almost groaned when I missed (and no, not because I was smacking it in the chops!).
I love eventing, polo and horse racing and show jumping and not that keen on dressage. I do think standards should improve all round in horse sport - but we need to recognise there are good and bad in all disciplines. As horsey people we should support each other :)
Also Mariposa I want to say your horse looks fab, looks fit, happy and enjoying his job! I'm rather jealous as horse and rider look to be having great fun, made me think about booking another polo lesson!
 
I played very low level polo when at uni - our team was quite good, so the grassroots training was available fairly cheaply, so we had to try!!

There was one mare whom I actually schooled and exercised outside of polo - she competed to medium level dressage as well as uni level polo, and she was used for BUCS pentathlon jumping too. She KNEW which tack she had on, and therefore which sport she was doing - put a snaffle on, and she schooled beautifully, put her gag and martingale on and she was a handful as she knew she was playing! She was one of those crackers who would follow the ball with no intervention from me, and would ride off against another mare off her own back.

A lot of the high head carriage etc in polo is for similar reasons to seeing it in racing - the musculature is totally different, with the underside of the neck more muscled than the top line due to aiding in balance at speed and lengthening of the neck to open the trachea as widely as possible while galloping for maximum breathing volume.

The bitting I always compare to Western riding - western riders use big curb bits because they neck rein and expect the lightest pressure to mean something. They don't direct rein on those bits! Same for polo.

Regarding 'bondage', you see plenty of eventers in grackles with a gag/pelham/waterford/elevator and running martingales purely for going cross country - should we make XC safer and slower and restrict tack to snaffles a la dressage?

I watched my uni team play on several occasions, as well as watching international polo at the O2 and at Guards amongst others, and there was very little 'ugly' riding when I watched - I've seen far worse at riding club dressage. It's just a different kind of riding.
 
khalswitz said:
I watched my uni team play on several occasions, as well as watching international polo at the O2 and at Guards amongst others, and there was very little 'ugly' riding when I watched.
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Good, I'm very glad to hear that. I just wonder if that's the case why there is so much of it on every YouTube video of any decent length, much of it off the ball where it would not be noticed by live spectators following the flow of play.
 
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