What are peoples views on this

Spring Feather said:
I meant to reply to this part of your post too in my previous reply but I didn't. Anyhow, what of the people watching? Are you implying that they don't know what they are doing? I've been one of those watchers. I've also backed a huge amount of youngsters over a 40 year period. They've all turned out very well. I think I'm fairly sure I know what I'm doing and no the slowly, slowly approach is not the only way to back a horse. I think there are a few on this thread who haven't back many horses tbh because anyone who backs a lot of horses for a living is always interested in other techniques whether or not they choose to use them :)

And thanks for that QB, I'll not be rushing out there to buy a dually halter :D
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Who needs a dually when you can just stick barbed wire in its mouth:eek::p:p


Duallys are for pussys!:eek:
 
Aarrghimpossiblepony said:
The video wasn't that bad but

What if it all went wrong?
Where do you go from there?
More force, more pressure?

Don't understand the people saying "well he wasn't using a bit". Well he was using something to hang onto the horse that evened up the difference between the strength of the horse wanting to run and a man.

If you don't believe in magic (which I'm pretty sure most people don't) the horse was compelled by force to do something it didn't want to do, not because the horse was bad but because it didn't know what the hell was going on.

Once you start on that road, how do you stop?
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I did not see a lot of force the handler was super calm amd emotionally level ( as far as you can see from a video). They just kept going where they where goiNg..
As for the Bitting I think the hackamore type thing ( I don't know what it's called )did make this a much better experiance for the horse reducing the potential for fright caused by unexpected contact .
There was minimal pressure on the front end throughout .
I think the skill of the rider made that a experiance that the horse will have learned positively from and that horse will go from it just fine.
But in the hands of the less balanced and talented and less calm it would be a very different story, as might it be with a trickier sharper horse.
As I said earlier its not now I did it when I was young enough to be doing it but I think I would rather buy that horse started that way by those people than a indulged homebred that people has taken three months to teach that everything was way scary and had been tip toed through starting.
The best horse starters do have a sort of relentless matter of factness about
them.
Like I said in my earlier post I have conflicting views on it.
 
I expected torture when I read the first comments!
I found the guy to be a rather good rider and he got the job done. If he was an unbalanced rider who fell off I'd be thinking 'well done, you've taught the horse to buck the rider off', but he didn't, he taught the horse that bucking doesn't achieve anything.
I'd much rather back a horse through slower and quieter methods, but hey, anything goes!
 
martlin said:
It teaches 2 very basic and important lessons from the word go:
1. you do not unseat rider
2. FORWARDS
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The problems with it as a method are:

1. I have had quite a few through who WOULD have unseated even that very sticky rider - and once they unseat a rider, some remember it and keep doing it! And how many riders CAN 'stick' if a horse means business??

2. His memories of being mounted aren't good - and that's bad!

Even horses with much more naturally placid temperaments than that chap can have a severe reaction to the 'predator on their back' - even when backed more slowly and sympathetically - and without an audience!

I have one at present - my own breeding - and 3 full siblings were easy! This chap managed to dump the rider very early on - and liked it! Weeks of careful work on and he will STILL try to dump the rider IF he is mounted in the manege (as he knows he can do it there.) We can get on him in the yard and hack out - no problems! He has no memories of dumping the rider out in the open away from the manege!

If there's anyone out there looking for a job who can guarantee to stay on a horse under similar circumstances, I'll give them a job!:D
 
Seen an awful lot worse, and seen an awful lot better.

The guy is not reading the horse at all. It's all being done too the horse not for him.

The preparation is awful, I could go on and on and on, but this guy is not for me.:)
 
Whether it was the "demonstration" atmosphere or what, but that horse wasn't ready/prepared enough to have a saddle on.

When he reacted so badly to the saddle being done up, I would have immediately stopped as soon as he had calmed down, and gone back a couple of steps, and NOT pressed on to get on there and then.

While this may be the way it is done (here), there is nothing to say I have to like it, and I know that I'll be doing a lot more work with my youngster before I eventually get on (in another couple of years ro so lol).
 
JanetGeorge said:
The problems with it as a method are:

1. I have had quite a few through who WOULD have unseated even that very sticky rider - and once they unseat a rider, some remember it and keep doing it! And how many riders CAN 'stick' if a horse means business??

2. His memories of being mounted aren't good - and that's bad!

Even horses with much more naturally placid temperaments than that chap can have a severe reaction to the 'predator on their back' - even when backed more slowly and sympathetically - and without an audience!

I have one at present - my own breeding - and 3 full siblings were easy! This chap managed to dump the rider very early on - and liked it! Weeks of careful work on and he will STILL try to dump the rider IF he is mounted in the manege (as he knows he can do it there.) We can get on him in the yard and hack out - no problems! He has no memories of dumping the rider out in the open away from the manege!

If there's anyone out there looking for a job who can guarantee to stay on a horse under similar circumstances, I'll give them a job!:D
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JG I am so glad you have said this as I was starting to think I was being unreasonable from reading other responses!

Unfortunately, at the moment I am dealing with a horse who suffered through an escalation of these type of methods and who now has an ingrained fear of any kind of pressure. Interestingly, I did the personality test for him that is linked through another thread and he comes up as a Steady Eddie! I suspect all he ever wanted was for someone to explain things in a way and at a pace he could understand...

I just wanted to say really that just because people have seen worse and accept it as a method than can work well on many horses with skilled practitioners, it doesn't make it right or good.
 
Queenbee said:
". As a result every horse in this world that takes anything on its back, is compelled to by some form of force, you may not feel comfortable with that idea, but its a fact, if you don't want to accept the idea, I understand that but the bottom line, no matter whichever way we cut it is that the horse does our bidding, it does what we want it to do, not what it wants to do..If it had its way, No saddle would touch its back and would spend its life eating grass with no Ill effects :rolleyes:
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Absolute rot, sorry. All but one of the horses which I have backed stood unrestrained with loose reins while I swung my leg over and sat on them. And most of those were backed on the same day they were first saddled.

I would not have even tried to do it that way with that horse, who was clearly not a stoic individual, and did not need to be made the platform for some macho man to show off to a crowd how well he can sit.

It's difficult enough for a baby to balance with a rider's weight on, what possible necessity was there to mount from the floor? That alone will make many babies buck in fear.

I'm not saying the horse has been damaged or held back by this start in any way. Just that it was so unnecessary.
 
Oh, and by the way, if you have really never met a horse who lives for his work and will leave his field when he hears the lorry start, then I feel sorry for you that it leaves you with the impression that no horse would willingly carry a saddle.

I haven't tied up a horse at home to tack it up in 30 years. They don't even walk away.
 
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I was expecting far worse from reading the comments.

Not the way I would have done it, or wanted a Horse of mine backed. But having said that, the rider was balanced, he let the Horse get on with it, there was no pressure on the head whats so ever, he got praised. It wasn't that bad, but too rushed for MY liking, doesn't mean this guy is wrong though. Very good seat too :eek:
 
It seemed to be more about displaying the riders talents than how to back the horse. Frustrated rodeo rider maybe :rolleyes: sorry I didn't like it but I know sod all about backing a horse. I do however come from the angle of respect for the nature of the horse and not adding any more stress than is absolutely necessary whatever you are teaching them to do. I felt very sorry for this horse. Maybe he won't have suffered any lasting harm but there is a better way of doing things and getting them used to being saddled and ridden need not be like this.
 
ShadowFlame said:
Looks like traditional, old-school breaking to me.

Doesn't make for a happy picture, though.
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It's certainly not the traditional old school British style backing that I leant forty years ago it is a galaxy away from that.
I am jealous of the riders athlectism though I would give a lot for my body to be able to that again .
I suspect it is the reality of how many are started off and probally not done as well as that.
 
Basically, when the horse showed it was unhappy to accept the saddle, the session went down hill from there. They should never have moved on without sorting this first step out. Very poor horsemanship, very poor all round.
 
It's funny you know. Done on the Continent in English Tack on expensive warmbloods and we ohh and ahh. Stick a western saddle on it out in the ranges of the west and it's old school cruelty by those idiot Americans.

And CP is right. I don't hold my horses for tacking up either. Out in the aisle on their own while I do my bits and walk around getting stuff. I also have almost always sat on my homebreds before official work takes place. It's a non event. I prefer the learning and enjoyment process for the horse and also building muscle to carry me so we do all that boring groundwork too. To each his own but somewhat hypocritical views when we talk about "The Continent". Land of do no wrong and expensive regal warmbloods.

Terri
 
I know someone in the uk that breaks horses like this in a round pen but just the same get on and stay there, I like this method and would do all mine like it and have done in the past! a lot of horses tend to go ok this is what I do and actually look to enjoy the change from round pen to the school to riding on the grass, their mouths are not ruined from long lining, lunging. their mouths develop whilst being ridden by subtle aids. We use the egde of the school/round pen to steer them with light aids, the most important part of this is that the horse goes forwards where and at what speed doesn't matter but they must go forward, hey presto horse is happy not bord senseless from weeks of ground work and go home with light mouths steering and brakes for their owners to school on, the ones we find more difficult are the ones people have messed about with and tried to do themselves. every horse that has been done this is racing or doing well eventing the owners are very happy and no one gets hurt!
People have different views and at the end of the day its what works for you and your horse, we have had some horses that buck lots and some that don't ever buck at all and I would have thought its exactly the same for different methods it all depends on the horse.
The horse in this video and what we do and are not beaten, hurt if they really didn't like it I think they could quite easily get the rider off so he must be quite happy to trot round at the end happily. he has not pulled on his mouth or anything like this. I cant see the problem how do we know from now on the training is taken slow. and now schooled properly with a correct mouth in the first place.
 
Goldenstar said:
It's certainly not the traditional old school British style backing that I leant forty years ago it is a galaxy away from that.
I am jealous of the riders athlectism though I would give a lot for my body to be able to that again .
I suspect it is the reality of how many are started off and probally not done as well as that.
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I mean traditional in the sense of breaking meaning breaking a horse's spirit. Horse isn't happy with saddle, so what, get on and keep going until it gives up.

Personal opinion is that if enough groundwork and desensitisation work is done, there's no reason for an explosion like that.
 
I wonder if a horse who has been given the time to feel comfortable and understand,in a,process without stress will be a much better horse a few years down the line.
I want a horse who can be trusted to think for himself and look after his rider, not one who has learned that resistance is useless and be merely compliant at all times. I want to know when my horse isn't comfortable - and I want him to be able to let me know, not in a "big deal" way, just feel confident to express himself.A horse needs 'as much time as he needs' to learn.
To me, that is horsemanship - not a show of ability to an audience.
Definitely not the worst I've seen, but with a different animal there could have easily been an unhappy end result.
I have no idea why any hackamore device is seen to be kinder than a bit - they both are designed to put pressure on a sensitive area. A baby who has been properly mouthed is a lovely thing.
 
This makes me feel a whole lot better about doing my horses myself, and not 'sending them away to a professional'.

My methods are far from standard, but I know which the horse would prefer!
 
Spring Feather said:
I meant to reply to this part of your post too in my previous reply but I didn't. Anyhow, what of the people watching? Are you implying that they don't know what they are doing? I've been one of those watchers. I've also backed a huge amount of youngsters over a 40 year period. They've all turned out very well. I think I'm fairly sure I know what I'm doing by now and no the slowly, slowly approach is not the only way to back a horse. I think there are a few on this thread who haven't backed many horses tbh because anyone who backs a lot of horses for a living is always interested in other techniques whether or not they choose to use them :)

And thanks for that QB, I'll not be rushing out there to buy a dually halter :D
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I'm not implying anything of the sort, but do you know everybody who watches these demos or videos of these demos?

There seems to be a lot of "instant solution" type of experts around these days. They make it look so easy to some extent.

I'm just not a fan of them being lauded. And I'm especially not a fan of them making money out of the gullible who are being told "follow this method and it will work".

Because the money making aspect doesn't allow them to say "one in a thousand can do this, for the average horse owner forget it, you don't have the facilities, the back up, the patience, the experience, the time, ect. and you are going to get in a terrible mess having a go at these short cuts".

But who's going to buy the books/equipment/videos with that level of honesty?

There should be a disclaimer "don't try this at home" like on the telly.:D Unless, of course, you are really experienced and professional as well.
And how many horse owners have people come across who never want to admit they are out of their depth?
 
Hmm. I don't see a whole lot wrong with that to be honest. The guy on the ground was a little whip happy, but the way the gorse was broncing wasn't in hugely violent way (not that I'd have sat on!) I think a lot worse goes on, and I guess on the continent they need to get on and get going in order to run the business.

I really didn't feel it was too awful, but having said that its not something I'd try any time soon. Perhaps not understanding what is being said doesn't help either. Seems like a nice horse. I guess it could even have been reacting more than it would have done with however the guy does it at home due to the crowds.
 
cattysmith said:
Hmm. I don't see a whole lot wrong with that to be honest. The guy on the ground was a little whip happy, but the way the gorse was broncing wasn't in hugely violent way (not that I'd have sat on!) I think a lot worse goes on, and I guess on the continent they need to get on and get going in order to run the business.

I really didn't feel it was too awful, but having said that its not something I'd try any time soon. Perhaps not understanding what is being said doesn't help either. Seems like a nice horse. I guess it could even have been reacting more than it would have done with however the guy does it at home due to the crowds.
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I agree with the above . I saw nothing terribly wrong and the horse had his ears pricked most of the time so would hardly say he was terrified. Too much pussyfooting around goes on these days resulting in the problems we read about on here...my horse wont go forward/leave the yard/hack out alone etc etc. Nothing like getting on with the job in hand. Now, where did I leave my seat saver and carrot stick............... ;)
 
The horses ears were a clear indication that things were far from right with this, clear misinterpretation if anyone thinks that's ok.
Of course, I don't think that backing a horse properly is 'pussyfooting'. In fact bulldozing through the horses feelings and fears is more likely to produce a horse with problems.
This horse hasn't been back correctly and this style of doing things is poor in the extreme.
 
I'm really suprised by the lack of KS and ulcer diagnosis. After all there's always a reason for this behavoir. Oh wait.........

As for the comment about how this way doesn't ruin mouths, really? That implies a sympathetic approach does and it doesn't if you know what you're doing.

Terri
 
Pale Rider said:
If they have to do this to run the business, they're in the wrong one.

Anyone who buys this sort of backing is asking for trouble.
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I think that it would be madness for just anyone to have a go like that, I agree. But I can't understand what is being said so I don't know if he's telling them "yes this is how you should all be doing it at home" or perhaps he's only demonstrating the way HE does it?

I've seen far more pained expression on horses in every day livery/riding school/showjumping etc situations than that particular horse. That horse isn't being abused or mistreated but it is there (I assume!) to make money and its not just a pet. There's no time for bonding to go on there, but to get it backed and working. I guess the guy should capable of having the horses at a decent stage in their schooling before he sells them on or gives them back to their owners.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
I'm really suprised by the lack of KS and ulcer diagnosis. After all there's always a reason for this behavoir. Oh wait.........

As for the comment about how this way doesn't ruin mouths, really? That implies a sympathetic approach does and it doesn't if you know what you're doing.

Terri
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I made a comment about the lack of a bit but I did not say this approach is better than the traditional slow starting I was taught.
But looking at this method as an outsider I think the lack of conventional Bitting would help a horse being started in this way.
Of course I don't know what esle had been done with this horse before and I don't know what they do after.
Personally I hate seeing backing as a performance with an audience it should be considered and horse focused , not a spectical for the amusement of others.
I organised a thing once ( subject was not my choice ) where one these NH type people started horses in a round pen I felt bad about it after.
 
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