what colour is this ?

[Cortez]

I thoroughly agree with everyone proselytising the buckskin-not-dun orthodoxy, but please remember that the term "buckskin" is an Americanism and as such would not have been in common usage when breed standards and colours were being formalised in the early 20th century when breed societies such as the Connemara and Irish Draught were set up. Perhaps we need a better term for the "notta-dun, hasn't gotta dorsal stripe and/or leg barring". The Spanish have some lovely names for their strange and varied dilutes; the term for buckskin is, I believe "bayo" - just for extra confusion.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I thoroughly agree with everyone proselytising the buckskin-not-dun orthodoxy, but please remember that the term "buckskin" is an Americanism and as such would not have been in common usage when breed standards and colours were being formalised in the early 20th century when breed societies such as the Connemara and Irish Draught were set up. Perhaps we need a better term for the "notta-dun, hasn't gotta dorsal stripe and/or leg barring". The Spanish have some lovely names for their strange and varied dilutes; the term for buckskin is, I believe "bayo" - just for extra confusion.

Totally agree

Neither were the terms sabino, tobiano etc - all came from across the pond These & other terms were unheard of even 15/20 yrs ago (or less) by the main horse-owning British public. Hence head scratching from older persons, or those who dont frequent internet etc...

Here we had/have:
Roans (various from strawberry to chestnut to blue & various in between & after)
Black, browns, bays, chestnuts (various shades of), greys (various themes of) piebald (black & white) skewbald (brown or any other colour & white), palomino, dun (various themes of), and variations on spots too

Ref the 'dun' - please also tell other British native pony societies, not just the Connemara Stud book

 

[Enfys]

Yes and people used to believe that the Sun orbited the Earth.

How can it orbit when the earth is flat?

I think the problem with dun and buckskin (amongst the myriad of others) is merely education, or caring enough, to be educated about the progress in colour genetics.

I grew up with the Manual of Horsemanship in one hand, and the Observers book of horses in the other, skewbald, piebald, grey (of whatever shade) blah, blah, blah and dun. Buckskin was some cowboy term used in America for dun. Until it all came up on the internet forums I didn't know any better. Ha. Sorry Cortez, you already said all that.



ps Faracat, you forgot Dunalino

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I grew up with the Manual of Horsemanship in one hand, and the Observers book of horses in the other, skewbald, piebald, grey (of whatever shade) blah, blah, blah and dun. Buckskin was some cowboy term used in America for dun. Until it all came up on the internet forums I didn't know any better.

Ditto - you still got your books? :biggrin3:

 

[Enfys]

Ditto - you still got your books? :biggrin3:

Yep

 

[dafthoss]

YP is a buckskin passported and refered to as dun as he is full connie. Doesn't bother me as such but I did find the other colour thread really interesting as I found out why he doesn't have the typical black up to his knees.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Shetlands and Highlands do have Dun.

Someone posted on here saying that one Welsh has tested positive for Dun, but I've not seen any proof. It's certain that Welshies do carry the Cream gene though and it's pretty common in the breed.

I do understand that Buckskin used to be thought of as the American term for Dun, but once they were found to be different, one was assigned to be 'Bay + cream' and the other was used for the Dun gene as a whole. So in a way the traditional British name has a bigger role. The gene could have been called Grulla (the Spanish name for the gene on a black base, so Black + Dun) rather than Dun and the argument to do so would be just as logical as using an old British term for Bay + Dun.

 

[TheTrotter.]

Shetlands and Highlands do have Dun.

Someone posted on here saying that one Welsh has tested positive for Dun, but I've not seen any proof. It's certain that Welshies do carry the Cream gene though and it's pretty common in the breed.

I do understand that Buckskin used to be thought of as the American term for Dun, but once they were found to be different, one was assigned to be 'Bay + cream' and the other was used for the Dun gene as a whole. So in a way the traditional British name has a bigger role. The gene could have been called Grulla (the Spanish name for the gene on a black base, so Black + Dun) rather than Dun and the argument to do so would be just as logical as using an old British term for Bay + Dun.[/QUO


Clanmill majourette (spelling..) is the section A who is positive for dun

 

[Meowy Catkin]

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/clanmill+majorette

The bottom half of her bloodlines are missing on here - is there a fully recorded version?

 

[Gloi]

I was looking for a picture of the welsh pony, I didn't find one but I did find this where it says she is chestnut roan.
Clanmill Majorette: Chestnut roan 2yo filly by Ringstead Major out of Pwllgwyn (R) Nia x Sunwillow Zurs. A very pretty pony who will make a lovely future child’s pony/brood mare, in hand show pony. NOW SOLD

edit. found a pic on facebook - not dun.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...68640555.80658.158263934248487&type=3&theater

 

[oldie48]

Hi Faracat, not sure how to add pictures but hopefully these will come through. First is Connie, you can see black legs but not the dorsal line, which was very obvious. 2nd is Exmoor x again black legs and dorsal line. Excuse 6year old daughter doing 1st hunter trial on the exmoor, at leat you can see at nine she learned something!

 

[DabDab]

I was looking for a picture of the welsh pony, I didn't find one but I did find this where it says she is chestnut roan.
Clanmill Majorette: Chestnut roan 2yo filly by Ringstead Major out of Pwllgwyn (R) Nia x Sunwillow Zurs. A very pretty pony who will make a lovely future child’s pony/brood mare, in hand show pony. NOW SOLD

edit. found a pic on facebook - not dun.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...68640555.80658.158263934248487&type=3&theater

If you look through their facebook page (open access) they describe a lot of their's as duns. I couldn't find a reference to a DNA test, but only really had a cursory glance.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Trying to ignore all the sabino/rabicano white flecks it does look like her head and non white leg are more chestnutty than her body in a Red/Chestnut Dun way. I just wonder how pure her blood is. It is possible to introduce a gene and then breed back to purebreds and end up with a 99% or more of pureblood but still with the introduced gene. Think of Pintabians and Tobiano.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/401662_295318937209652_2114884611_n.jpg

It's been said that there are Dun Welshies in the US - but again I'd like to see proof that they are pure. I got a huge shock when I opened an American thread on another forum about Shetland ponies. They were not the Shetlands that I know and love.

I just want a bit more proof.

ETA- As DabDab said, proven DNA test results (irrefutably from that pony) would be great.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Hi Faracat, not sure how to add pictures but hopefully these will come through. First is Connie, you can see black legs but not the dorsal line, which was very obvious. 2nd is Exmoor x again black legs and dorsal line. Excuse 6year old daughter doing 1st hunter trial on the exmoor, at leat you can see at nine she learned something!

Lovely ponies!

Both were/are Sooty Buckskin. The Exmoor x has the mealy Exmoor muzzle too, so has Pangare also. It's the sooty (which adds black pigment) that has given the dorsal stripe.

The arab with sooty shading causing a false dorsal stripe and leg bars is on whitehorseproductions.
Here's the photos - remember this horse doesn't have dun.

 

[oldie48]

So are any connies or exmoors dun? If not, what breeds do have true duns? Sorry , I'm a bit slow!

 

[Amaranta]

Hi sorry to contradict you but this is dun and actually it's a very common colour in connemaras. We used to have a reg Con mare by the famous con stallion, Templebready Fear Bui and she was this colour. In Ireland they would definitely call their connies dun rather than buckskin or whatever!

I have to correct you, they may be REGISTERED as dun's but the dun gene does not exist in the Connemara, the cream gene does, there is no such thing as a dun Connemara, they are ALL buckskin.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Exmoors have Pangare (like Haflingers, which are not palomino but Chestnut Pangares) which gives the mealy muzzle, pale around the eyes and undercarriage. They don't have Dun or Cream (they aren't Dun or Buckskin, but Bay Pangares).

The Cream in Oldie's pony must have come from the other side of it's pedigree.

Connemaras have the cream gene.

Many breeds do have Dun (some have cream and Dun). Highlands, Shetlands, Quarter horses, Fjords, Mustangs, PRE's, Icelandics, Przewalskis etc...

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

So are any connies or exmoors dun? If not, what breeds do have true duns? Sorry , I'm a bit slow!

Have had 4 registered Exmoors whose papers said Dun, including 1 that I bred.
Had 2 dun foresters (both from Gosden lines) and also 1 dun Connemara.
All bar one of the above were what I call dun, 1 was a golden dun.
That is the officially recognised colour by their breed societies and thus put onto their papers

 

[Wheels]

So are any connies or exmoors dun? If not, what breeds do have true duns? Sorry , I'm a bit slow!

Highlands, Shetlands, PRE, Norwegian fjords, morgans, quarter horses (probs quite a few american breeds) some of the heavy breeds I think, probably more but thats as many as I can think of at the minute

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

.

The colour above, is what is termed by the EPS as 'bay'

 

[oldie48]

I have to correct you, they may be REGISTERED as dun's but the dun gene does not exist in the Connemara, the cream gene does, there is no such thing as a dun Connemara, they are ALL buckskin.

Thanks for your comment, I think I now know this unlike most Irish and English connemara breeders and owners. i am tempted to say "a rose by any other name etc etc" but am happy to accept that for some people accuracy is very important. as a keen gardener I am very used to plants having new names as a result of genetic advances, so I suppose I will have to accept that my lovely yellow dun was actually buckskin,doesn't change anything important, so happy to go with that.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Oldie - do you have an unclipped photo of your Exmoor cross?

ETA - No it doesn't change anything important.

I hadn't thought that Bay Pangare would also be confused for Dun, but then so many Haffys are called palomino, so I should have guessed. That one irks me when a premium is put on the price because the pony is a palomino, when it isn't. Again education will stop this.

 

[oldie48]

No sorry, we had Joey (exmoor x) on loan as daughter's first pony and have few pictures but very happy memories of him. He was the perfect pony for a keen and brave child, long gone now, pony not child, and we were so lucky to have had him. We'd have loved him if he'd been green! this colour business is quite complicated isn't it? my current dressage horse is Brown in his passport but Bay in most people's eyes, except mine of course, where he is currently "golden".

 

[* TEAM SAM *]

Thanks she has been passported as sooty buckskin vet agreed with what I suggested x

 

[Meowy Catkin]

my current dressage horse is Brown in his passport but Bay in most people's eyes, except mine of course, where he is currently "golden".

He could be Seal brown - a lot of people mix that up with dark bay.

Like this -

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanks she has been passported as sooty buckskin vet agreed with what I suggested x

We really need to see a photo of her now after all this!

 

[Echo Bravo]

And this is where the American naming comes out and confuses us, what ever happened to Skewbald, piebald and several shades of Dun and Roans

 

[Echo Bravo]

Faracat how did you your smilies????

 

[Capriole]

Looking at my pony's passport, vet's also agreed she was a hand bigger than she is and that my friends Haflinger is Palomino, though

Can't wait till you can post pics OP, she sounds nice

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Faracat how did you your smilies????

: + ) =

: + D =

; + ) =

: + p =

If you 'go advanced' there are lots more, plus you can then press 'more' and get the old ones plus things like this :angel: