What do you think about Parelli?

[Shilasdair]

Hi SV
Nothing wrong with electric tape - I like to electrify mine though, preferably to a mains pylon to keep my daemon 2 yr old in!
It is hard to break though...probably because of the metal fibres running through it.
You misunderstood my post - I just meant that I thought that the horse wasn't at liberty but the video quality was quite poor so wasn't sure if it was tape or lungeline or whatever.
S

 

[sqippa]

Thank you!

Sqip

 

[sqippa]

Not strictly speaking correct.
Yes the friendly game is used to desensitise horses from things that would otherwise scare them...bags, umbrellas...going near their private parts

!! But also the system instucts you to remove pressure the second a horse responds in the way you have requested and at an early stage this can be as little as seeing a shift in weight in the right direction. This removal of pressure must then be backed up with a friendly game session scratching thir favourite bit or where you have been applying pressure. It also repeatedly reminds you that failure to remove pressure quickly enough will not get the required result and failure to reward quickly enough will not get the reward. My boy loves it when he has done right and often puts his fav part...ie his rather vast behind...infront of me in anticipation of his reward.

I am not Parelli mad but have used it and enjoyed it. If its not your piece of cake then leave it but allow others to continue to enjoy it if they wish.

Squip

 

[henryhorn]

HDT I have no problem with them making money whatsoever, I wouldn't offer my services free either.
I do have a problem over the whole idea of "If you follow the parelli method all your problems will be solved"
I can see the method has been carefully formulated, and is of course mostly plain old fashioned "horse sense", but the idea that you can just send for a book/video and equipment and be let loose on your horse really bothers me.
I've had DIY liveries for over thirty years now, and have seen them do the most incredibly stupid things. I would agree with the saying "There are no bad horses just bad owners" but them following parelli won't necessarily make them good owners.
If they followed it step by step whilst being supervised that's a different matter.
We have all seen what happens, they buy the system, start off really well, then end up doing half the stuff half heartedly and making a pig's ear of the horse altogether.
My biggest gripe however is the sheer arrogance and attitude most parelli people seem to have. it's almost evangelical and I firmly believe too much so because it turns so many people away from what the original aims were trying to achieve.
The other thing is the assumption that all of us should be doing it and would benefit from parelli..
Rubbish, an awful lot of us have learned over many years by experience and can do all the parelli "tricks " if asked, and we don't need carrot sticks to do it either.
Who on earth do you people think you are? The over riding attitude of "Our way is THE only way" is so narrow minded it beggars belief...
No, until it's "followers" start showing a little less arrogance and a little more acceptance that there are other ways of training your horse you will never convince many people, me included..
Read your last words on your post.. you accuse people of being so angry they can't see clearly. Well I'm not angry and see very clearly believe me, and
I think without supervision it's flawed..lots to merit it if it was, but not just sold to horseowners to get it wrong at their horse's expense.

 

[Talan]

I always get frustrated in discussions like this (normally about Parelli) when some people use them as an excuse to boast about how good they themselves are with horses. Well bully for them, and obviously they have been lucky enough to have good teachers at some point (assuming they didn't spring from the womb with some mystical inbuilt horse sense!).
It's not really the point though is it? Everyone needs some help with horses, even if only at the start, and not everyone finds a good local teacher to help them. So I think we should all applaud everyone, Parelli, BHS or whatever sort of student, who gets out there to try to learn to do the best for their horses.
However, I think that those same students should be open to discussion of the good and bad about what they are being taught, and not get personal or insulting about it. I have to say, Parelli students in particular seem to get a bit dogmatic, and spout long Parelli-isms as defence. Maybe that shows how effective the teaching is though...
It's been said before, everyone has an anecdote about ineffective Parelli students, and horses stuffed up by "Parelli" - which of course isn't the case, it's the people that stuff them up, when they don't correctly apply the training approach. You can't blame the training if people aren't clever enough to apply it. I'd just say to everyone, walk through your average livery yard and look at the happy hackers, aspiring competitors etc there. Can you truly say that it's only Parelli students stuffing horses up?

 

[Shilasdair]

Well said Henryhorn!
There's a lot to be said for a wider understanding of horses, whether it's BHS, Foundation Degree, Honours Degree, Natural Horsemanship, what the old horsemen said (there are still a few of them around).
There are two interesting things about Parelli, firstly, how evangelical complete novicey horse-owners are...and how they equate themselves to experts very quickly (scarey!).
Secondly, how quickly the first 'wave' of Parelli fans seem to have changed from deifying to demonising the approach within a few years....
I don't envy you running a livery yard....trying to keep all the horses/riders safe!
S

 

[the watcher]

I think that evangelism you see with Parelli students is similar to the 'barefoot' brigade who also seem to be passionate converts; add into the mix the belief that what they are doing is 'natural' and it is a dangerous combination.

As many other have said, there is more than one way to train a horse and many different training routes to take. We should try to stay open minded and take the best of each that we feel we can use. I am happy to use NH principles in many ways, as well as the more conventional training methods..but show me a carrot stick, or a wand, or a clicker and I am liable to start foaming at the mouth.....

 

[Shilasdair]

Foaming?
Wow I'd like to see that!
I agree that the more we know the better we'll look after the horses...and more fun we'll have too.
It's sad to see the BHS (I know it's not perfect) being criticised by people who have failed Stage 1 or 2....and want the standard lowered to them rather than that they should raise their own game.
I've failed a few myself...and I've learnt to tell myself when I need to do better!
S

 

[phaseone]

Well said Talan

 

[aimeerose]

[ QUOTE ]

I can now ask for wonderful 'on the bit' dressage moves in a rope hackamore with my horse wanting to do this rather than me pulling her neck in to get a position. My horse is giving rather than being told. Cool!

Shelley

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW

, my last mare has never done NH/parelli etc in her life, not EVER, yet she worked very nicely in nothing but a headcoller (tooth op meant no bit for few weeks)
amazingly good riding acheived that!

i do think NH and parelli have a place, but sometimes i think they are a little over rated!

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
A business makes profits for its owners/shareholders. The BHS is a charity...the money it makes is returned to do further work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your repsonse Shilasdair. I'm not wanting to take a pop at the BHS, just make a point, as I think you understand. Parelli also ploughs a small (maybe even large) fortune back into developing better materials, instructors, conferences around the globe and so on. This evening I read the BHS president's invitation for ambassadors to come forward and help recruit new members. Hmmmm. I do wonder what the reaction would be if Parelli tried the same approach. The BHS does some simple maths around this membership campaign and to me it just adds up to a lot of money. Charities can be profit making can't they?

 

[gemmah]

Pricey at £70? I pay upto £40 per day for BHS instructors conventions/ training days and when getting my qualifications, travelled about 300miles and paid nearly £500pw plus accomodation to make sure I trained wth some of the best in the country. I sure don't mind paying £35 per day!!LOL

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the debate, you should try hard to make your own mind up, using evidence that you have seen, and your own expertise/experience.......

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree Shilasdair and I am glad I bothered to join this debate. It has been very useful to get to know the views of people from across the equestrian spectrum.

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen quite a bit of the horse industry (I'm old!) and have seen enough of NH and BHS to come to my personal (and always open to change) opinions.
S

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps it is because of your years

and your experience that you are better placed to make up your own mind, and also to change your opinions. I risk alienating scores of people here, but my teenage daughter for one, has a hard time seeing anyone else's point of view and rarely changes her mind

As a result of this thread I think I will try to be more conscious of what I say and how I say it when it comes to Parelli. Even though students may become passionate at times, it can be offputting and overwhelming to others.

 

[Talan]

I wonder who here can truly do all the Parelli "tricks". I certainly can't. And I wonder what tricks they might be. Yes, I'm sure a lot of people can complete the level 1 tricks, and also a lot of the level 2... but level 3? I'm trying to remember what was in that one last time I saw it. Was it canter flying lead changes on 45 ft line? Flying lead changes at liberty? It also includes backing up the horse at liberty doesn't it - without touching the horse at all. I saw a level 3 video from a Parelli instructor once (ie he'd got that horse to level 3). He was running with the horse as they cantered, and cueing lead changes with small movements of his body.
I doubt that some of the people who think they can do all the Parelli tasks can do that, and if they can I'd love to see a video. When Parelli training goes "well" then people really do some things less ordinary.
Can you do the level 4 liberty work? At liberty (no corral) - show spins, send your horse backwards in a straight line for 25ft, have your horse run back to you, 20 m circles with change of direction, have your horse canter slide stop and backup... have two horses work in a circle around you. Pointless? Maybe to you, but to others it's just as relevant as showjumping or Trec.
What I'm saying is there is no use coming on and criticising Parelli students for having attitude by having it back, by belittling the very real skills that can be developed. These are skills that are out of the norm, although not many people stick it long enough to get there. Often the retort to this is what is the point of all of this rubbish anyway and who would want to do it? Well, I don't want to compete cross country, but I don't belittle the skills needed to do it.
Some people are being so damning, and not acknowledging that there is good and bad in everything. How about the point that there are many, many incompetent horse owners out there ruining their horses, it's just that the Parelli ones stick out more? I visit a large livery yard regularly (best not say which!) and it's got a good share of people scared to ride, whose horses are walking all over them, who have ruined good horses by their own incompetence. I don't think any of them are Parelli students.
I'll put my hand up to being ex-Parelli and having moved on - having completed most of level 3 before I did it. I feel experienced enough to comment on the bad in Parelli, but I also feel it can do a lot of good. That's speaking from inside knowledge and I would say from an understanding how the programme works.

 

[Skhosu]

'either jump out of them or push through the tape which breaks, we then know we've asked for too much and we learn to be lighter and more polite. '

So you teach your horses to jump over tape, have you ever seen a horse get caught up in electric tape??

Barefoot....it is also more natural for the strong to survive, the weak die. No medical treatments. No stables. Predators etc. Maybe we should encourage all this too?

 

[annr]

Hi Ive just spent the last hour reading though this debate and would like to add my comments.

In 2000 my daughter and I saw a Parelli demo and quite frankly it blew my mind away what they were doing with thier horses. As a 50 something my riding days go back 40 years and I have seen many changes. As we were thinking of buying a horse we found a holiday where the horses were a trained the Parelli way, we had a wonderful time with them for the week, we learnt at first hand not from a book and we came away with a very sound piece of advice - keep doing it naturally you will be shunned, ridiculed and thought of as very very strange but your horse will thank you. Well we bought a horse an unstarted 3 year old, we got alot of advice from the establishment and we read, and attended demos and training days but we kept to our dream and yes all of the above did and does happen to us. Our mare is a combination of traditional and 'natural' she rides english and western and enjoys Parelli. A very traditional trainer who is teaching her to jump is in awe of her when my daughter turns up for her lessons and warms her up in her horsemans halter. We are thought of as very odd by traditionalists, but a local BHS riding school has asked if my daughter can attend a pony camp she runs and talk to the youngsters about natural horsemanship. Lets just see Natural horsemanship be it Parelli, Monty, Mark or anyone else work alongside the traditional way, lets see equestrianism move into the 21 century and embrace different ideas for the good of the horse and lets talk less about money and rights or wrongs, everyone has and is entitled to their opinion, lets see those of us who choose to ride in a 'bit of string' we allowed to compete alongside our traditionally turned out colleages and not though of as freaks. Perhaps if people stopped and asked why we do it and we stopped getting on our hobby horse things could move forwards. If it is correct that Parelli is coming to Stoneleigh and I believe this has not yet been confirmed by Parelli it simply brings all aspects of horsemanship to one central area in the country surely this must be a good thing remember the journey to unity will begin with one small footstep and perhaps its not that far from one office building to another for a dialogue to begin.

 

[sophielove]

Horse & Hound are not known for their bad reporting. In fact, they are widely esteemed as the most accurate of information points for everything equine. If their information is incorrect, it must have been presented in an untidy, unclear or incorrect manner by the person or persons who contacted H&H with the 'news'.

This is simply another example of the way in which the Parelli ORGANISATION communicates. So often they claim to be 'misunderstood' and yet they do not communicate clearly, accurately, intelligibly, which is why they create so much antithesis to a training method which has real value.

For many people who have not grown up around horses, have fear issues, or have never been trained in any one discipline, the Parelli home study programme gives them a valuable set of tools in order to increase their safety, understanding and relationship with horses. It's such a shame that the Parelli 'faithful' do so much to alienate equestrians with their attitude. Someone else said 'like Jehovah's Witnesses' - LMFAO - so true!

 

[sophielove]

HDT, the angriest voice here, for a long time, is YOURS! And as a 'Parelli Co-ordinator' that is scary for the programme. I thought you were supposed to learn to control your emotions, in Parelli - or is that only with horses?

Honestly, I think this forum has become very well-rounded, a true discussion and sharing of minds, ideas, philosophies and thoughts and then you weigh in all riled up and defensive and do no end of damage to all the other level-headed Parelli people out there trying to INTEGRATE with other horsepeople, rather than ALIENATE them.

Grow up!

 

[SavvyHorse]

TriplesandH: we also teach them to resist pulling if caught on rope/tape etc and therefore stand and wait to be released from pressure. My panicky horse now, when she's got a rope caught around her leg, waits patiently for me to remove it or thinks through the process herself rather than panics. I have also helped a friend with her panicky TB at the age of 15 who was never taught this and almost killed her human when panicked by a rope around her leg!

Thin electric tape DOES Break!!!

We don't teach horses to jump tape but they know inside that they can do it if they really wanted to get away.

 

[Tinypony]

Savvyhorse, electric tape does break, eventually, but my mare has permenant scars across her chest from going through electric tape in the field. A friend's horse nearly punctured a lung when she went through electric fencing - on the stake at the end of a post.
Having said that, I do sometimes chuck up an electric tape pen to work my horses, although it is in a slightly different way to Parelli. I wouldn't continue the session if the horse showed signs of wanting to leave, that would indicate to me that the horse wasn't ready for liberty work.
Apy2 - you talk about your daughter riding in her "horseman's halter" - (that's a rope hackamore to non-Parelli people). Do you plan to progress this horse to being ridden bitted? I'm sure you realise that a lot of people find the idea of riding in a rope halter or hackamore scarey, do you realise it also puts some people off getting involved or going to clinics? That is one reason why I prefer the natural" horsemen who have a flexible approach, and will have people ride in what they feel comfortable with. Possibly trying bitless as they feel more relaxed and safe. The more flexible and tolerant approach wins more people over I find.
It is also true that Pat Parelli himself expects all his own horses to be ridden bitted, indeed he progresses most to curb bits for refinement and uses spurs. What I am saying is, in ridden terms, is your daughter sticking around the end of Level 2, or is she going to progress through the programme as the originator intended?

 

[Tinypony]

Ah - there's a couple of other things. If you are going to visit to talk and maybe demo Parelli make sure you get their permission first. They can be very nasty about the use of the Parelli name by anyone who is not an instructor.
Also, some of my friends who ride in the rope halter have had the experience of kids copying them, without the preparation. Imagine kids at a local livery yard suddenly deciding to hack out in headcollars to prove that what the rope halter brigade do is not that special. That may be worth bearing in mind in a pony club visit.
Last - insurance - some companies won't insure you to ride bitless, in case of an accident the fact that your horse isn't wearing a bitted bridle could be argued to be negligent and your insurance company wouldn't defend you. It might be worth checking this, I'm insured with NFU and have a special note on file to cover me.

 

[SavvyHorse]

Tinypony: sorry to hear your horse got injured and I totally agree with you about stopping a session if a horse showed signs of wanting to leave, it does indicate that liberty isn't ready yet.

 

[Christmas_Kate]

Quick reply:

I've seen a little Parelli work. I've also seen some completetly barking Parelli people. People who feel it's fine to ride out on the road bareback and in just a haltar, with a foal running loose next to them

.
Of course, as is everything in life, that doesnt mean ALL parelli people are as crazy and irrisponsible. BUT i feel that this method teaches inexperienced owners that they can somehow work 'magic' and take a fast track. Maybe in someone with years of experience, who's been there and done that, who has done the 'conventional' route.... they're qualified to make their own choices. but nothing, no amount of money, training whatever, qualifies you to know a horse better thn someone who has plain common sense and years and years of dedication and experience.

As for the carrot stick.... I think I might nick OH's garden sticks and sell them on

. I'll use the profit for some good TRADITIONAL training.....

.

 

[Tinypony]

"but nothing, no amount of money, training whatever, qualifies you to know a horse better thn someone who has plain common sense and years and years of dedication and experience."
That's right, and applies to all training.
Any idiot riding out as you describe xxkatyxx is not a Parelli idiot - they are just an idiot - and would be an idiot whatever label they chose to wear.
Thanks SavvyHorse, I must make it clear I wasn't doing liberty when my mar ran through the tape - I was trying to restrict her because of an injury!

 

[joeathh]

I would never use eletric tape without a charge on it. There was a post on another forum where a youngster got caught up in the tape and took her flesh off down to the bone. Now likely 6 months box rest. I can't see how anyone would suggest such an unsafe practise - you might as well have no barrier. I use jump poles lay on top of barrels to create a smaller lunge pen in my school. If the horse does go at it, the pole rolls to the floor - the worst that could happen is he trips on the pole but this has to be much safer than electric tape!

 

[HDT]

One thing I do agree with is that some people start PNH and suddenky think they are experts, however this also applies to people who ride dressage, show jump and event.. If you look at the bigger picture they do all come under the same scrutinary.

I myself do not see PNH as the only way to go, how could I when I ride dressage and compete in Driving Trials.

What I think is wrong is how just becasue someone enjoys PNH with their horse they are attacked. And yes a few posts on here have been from people mouthing off and attacking with angry words when they know nothing of what they are talking about.

Posts like yours Henry Horn that state an opinion with a level head are openly accepted. Posts from people who rant and garble are ignored.

 

[Shilasdair]

Hi again PP
Thanks for your post....I guess these young whippersnappers will always see things in black and white...I am sure they'll mellow with age (or the repeated concussion from owning horses!)
S

 

[Shilasdair]

HDT
We are all entitled to our views, even if they don't agree with yours. Perhaps, just perhaps, Parelli doesn't have all the answers?
I have to say that I do find your posts a little....strong....you are very quick to judge others....with phrases like 'they know nothing of what they are talking about' and 'people who rant and garble are ignored'.
Perhaps as a Parelli co-ordinator (I don't know what that is, really) you could be more welcoming to the majority of owners who might be interested, but don't want to commit?
Just a thought
S

 

[cvb]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks SavvyHorse, I must make it clear I wasn't doing liberty when my mar ran through the tape - I was trying to restrict her because of an injury!

[/ QUOTE ]

I also had my mare go through an electric fence - which was just being a fence (field boundary).

I don't use fence tape for any loose/liberty work - instead you can get the safety/security tape (like they put around road works or to tape off police areas). It does flap a bit in the wind (which we do get a fair bit of where I am in Scotland !), but it would give if needed. I've never had that happen but I would rather manage my risks.... (You can get it from catalogues like Screwfix or even from eBay - its not expensive and lasts for ages

)

My mare did not cut herself on the fence tape - but she did hurt a leg and it is still affected

Ruth, Shelley - see you there

 

[Tina33]

[ QUOTE ]
Horse & Hound are not known for their bad reporting. In fact, they are widely esteemed as the most accurate of information points for everything equine. If their information is incorrect, it must have been presented in an untidy, unclear or incorrect manner by the person or persons who contacted H&H with the 'news'.

This is simply another example of the way in which the Parelli ORGANISATION communicates. So often they claim to be 'misunderstood' and yet they do not communicate clearly, accurately, intelligibly, which is why they create so much antithesis to a training method which has real value.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think this is what I like least about the organization. They market to the point of being misleading. For example they advertise the classes at their schools as being exclusive and limited in size. Even suggest ever so subtley that there are twenty people, yet they allow seventy or more students in a class.

I do think natural horsemanship (not exclusively PNH) is wonderful and have used much of what Parelli teaches combined with other methods and an understanding of horse behavior with great success

I also thing Pat is brilliant and wish he had been able to stick to his original dream. Unfortunatly his ego as well as Linda's ego and marketing savvy has turned the program in to a bit of a monster. My only suggestion when dealing with Parelli is buyer beware! Take Pat's advise and realize that you don't know what you don't know.