What do you think about Parelli?

[Tina33]

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The point you make about 3 hours of bullying, I cannot defend. I have seen the trailer loading mentioned earlier and I was personally disgusted by it. That's hard to admit as someone who has studied this method for many years now. We all make mistakes and Pat and Linda do admit to having made a few along the way.


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Pat and Linda clearly did not see the three hour trailer loading as a mistake. They included it in there $1000. home study DVD collection.

 

[Tina33]

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Sorry but have to step in there.
Paralli works by positive reward as well as negative!
Whenever the horse responds in the correct way they are rewarded with physical affection otherwise known as 'The friendly game'.

as increasing level of 'ask' or 'pressure' (from a light fingertip touch to a prod to a hard prod and bang). I am sure that everyone on this site has hit their horse at .

Squip

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The friendly game is used for desensitising and relationship but is not used to reinforce behavior. Just ask yourself which behavior your horse will do for a scratch? Will he back up or yield his hind quarters just for a nice scratch? The friendly game does not reinforce behavior and it is not positive reinforcement.

All pressure is negative reinforcement. The animal responds to a negative stimulus....pressure. Negative reinforcement isn't bad, but requires timing or can easily turn into punishment. These are simple things that any one taking a beginning animal psychology class would know. Unfortunatly someone can spend lots of money studying Parelli and still not be taught this.

 

[Bess]

This has been a very interesting thread, I thought it would just degenerate into Parelli vs HHO'ers but not so. Many ex Parelli people seem to have added their bit and I'm glad they have, because it gives a balance to the 'idealisem' of the Parelli beleivers. This has been the one of the most potentially contentious threads I've ever read on HHO and yet it seems to still retain a balanced discussion. Well done everyone.

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
Pat and Linda clearly did not see the three hour trailer loading as a mistake. They included it in there $1000. home study DVD collection.

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Yes Tina33, you are quite right. They may disagree with my view and not see in a negative way at all. Perhaps feedback from students and non students, who have seen the footage will help them re evaluate the sequence. This is perhaps a subject for another thread!

I have bought lines and a halter from Parelli, plus a bridle. My other equipment was bought elsewhere, but is the same quality material. I borrowed the Liberty pack since I didn't have a spare £600

. But when I think about the durability of Parelli equipment and the 'reusability' of the learning material, I think it is great value for money. The International Savvy Club site has so much information for members, they feel well supported.

A friend of mine uses my equipment for Parelli and says she cannot affor to become a member, but will keep two horses on full livery and pay for lunge/riding lessons at £40 per time. Way more than Parelli would cost anyone, trust me

.

The last thing I want to mention about the Liberty and Horse Behaviour pack is that, apart from that one sequence above, the pack has so many gems in it about different horses and their reactions to situations and communication and how to recognise your horse's innate characteristics and presentation.

 

[wattsy]

just thought some of you might like to see this clip of a mule doing Parelli - and you know how stubborn mules are supposed to be...!!! !
http://www.thewesternshop.com/content/view/272/423/

 

[hayleyD]

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I cant wait for the new centre a Stoneleigh to be up and running I just hope I can save the pennies to take advantage of the courses. It would be truely amazing if Pat and Linda could be over hear and give us some of their amazing input - who knows!!!??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to put you straight, it's news to the Parelli's. They are coming over to give a 2 day conference but are not teaching over here. thier office is now open but not in Stoneleigh. The parelli's have no idea where that came from.

 

[spaniel]

I have just watched buckle bunnys clip of her mule (who is lovely).

Please all bow down to me...send me lots of money and praise me blindly....my cob does all these things with me and I can assure you I havent spent any money on hyped up marketing to achieve that.

 

[HDT]

In comparison to other equine disciplines parelli equipment is not expensive, I have spent 100's on Parell gear and 1000's on other more traditional equipment.
I am not someone who sees parelli as the only means to horsemanship, though I am a Level 3 student of PNH I also ride dressage and compete at Horse Driivng Trials.

This topic started off ripping into PNH and I am pleased to see the topics have cooled down a little.

Why questions me is why the need to be so defensive? There is good and bad in every equine sport and these come from the person using the method and not the method itself.

Interestingly someone mentiones about how learning PNH from a study pack is dangerous yet they don't mention the distance learning packs that are available for those wanting to learn to ride and further there education.

Nothing is mentioned about those who go to college, don't own a horse and then think a qualification makes them experienced horse people who go out and teach. (By the way this is not mocking people who go to college as I did for my HND in Horse management)
What I am saying is that there are good teachers and bad and good and bad riders and people who look after their horses and those who neglect their horse.

I have seen PNH practiced very efficiently and the horses enjoying every moment. I have also seen PNH practiced terribly much to the anguish of the horse.

I have also seen some very good dressage riders (not talking about the professionals) who reward their horses using very good training methods and I have seen others who have no consideration for their horses at all. When I say seen I don't mean those just schooling at home but those I see while judging at events.

It was also mentioned, how come PNH folk don't psot on the H&H forum that often.. this thread shows why. If oyu don't follow traditional methods and enjoy PNH you seem to be shot down so to speak.

Riding positions.... I reckon no matter what riding position you undertake, whether the Heather Moffat system, BHS, Classical, PNH etc, you can if you wanted find enough to demonstrate the negatives and postives of each. So saying at a demo "Such and such proved such and such" only applies if you want to follow what they are saying.

If we believed what everyone said we'd be filled with so many diferent opinions we'd be going round in circles never knowing what was really right or wrong.

On another note it was mentioned that the horses looked dull and bored, again this applies to other disciplines. Only as an example I have seen some dressage horses looking so depressed and bored or angry with ears flat back that this statement doesn't stand.

Over all, I incorporate Natural Horsemanship techniques with traditional methods and use them together.
PNH is not about training the horse but more focused on teaching the person about horse psycology and understanding the horses needs.

No method is wrong as long as it is used correctly and with consideration to the horse.

As long as my horses are happy whether this is with PNH, Dressage or Driving then I am happy.

I'd like to add on a final not that I don't think traditional methods are totally right or wrong or that of PNH.
I do however feel that the future of the horse is what is important.

 

[gemmah]

brilliantly said HDT!

 

[Partoow]

Lets just get this straight, 'natural horsemanship ' is an oxymoron. There is nothing natural about a horse being ridden.
All we can do is understand why a horse would see aspects of our work with them as threatening and therefore invoke the' flight or fright' mechanism that is natural to the horse.
All the mombo jumbo techniques are already covered in many old 'horsemastership manuals of old.
I learnt many of these 'techniques' from an 82yr old man in my village who had been working with horses and stock since he was 14yrs.
The Stallion men that used to take their stallions around to cover mares in the local community had so many 'tools' available to them dealing with horses in a variety of situations.
We have become removed from the country, many see it as unsavory and we have lost the traditions and understanding that living in these communities bring.
I was also taught at pony club by a Major Grimshaw, ex cavalry and all the accumulated knowledge that brought.
More than from just a book.
I am appalled by the idea of these sharlatens being at Stoneleigh as it gives weight to their already exellent marketing campain.
I am a competiton rider and Klimke who was pretty good at developing horses in an understanding way, suggests that what makes a good rider /trainer is someone who thinks like the horse.My horses are worked like Klimke advokates always happy to do more because they leave the school as they came in, ie not an exhausted sweaty heap.This is the way to develope the horse physically, which interestingly i have yet to see a parrelli trained horse with the kind of musculature that indicates that they have been working along these developmental lines? It is like circus.
I am bored of having the wheel reinvented and then being told that the way i do things is wrong and 'un natural'
Well when i dont have these Parrelli 'trained' horses coming to me because it has all gone horribly wrong then i may take it as something of value.
I understand my horses'innerchild' well thank you very much and i dont need this American waving his 'carrot stick' to come and tell me at the heart of UK equestrianism that he knows better and is the saviour of competition horses the world over.
All my horses have their own dignity and have respect for those that handle them but dont give them human attributes.they are not they dont reason and they respect strong clear consistent leadership. Go and see someone like Jenny LC work with horses in hand and you'll see something worth paying for.

 

[gemmah]

Congratulations spaniel! You are obviously doing a gr8 job! Fantasic u can do cool stuff 2! Sorry don't have any spare cash at the mo! All gone on the electric bill!

I think u have 2 help other people do it to get the wedge tho'!

 

[kellybeau]

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just thought some of you might like to see this clip of a mule doing Parelli - and you know how stubborn mules are supposed to be...!!! !
http://www.thewesternshop.com/content/view/272/423/

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Wow thanks, I used to have this clip of Millie & Liz but lost it when my old computer died on me!!!

Awesome..... it never fails to bring me out in goose bumps.

 

[wattsy]

just to set the record straight Spaniel, the lady in the clip is not me!! (I got the impression you thought I posted the link to make some sort of point in defence of Parelli - but I just thought it was cute

).
I do really like that people have fun with Parelli; I can't really understand why people get so uptight about it. I've seen it, thought it was good, and acknowedge that PP is a good horseman and a very good businesman. I don't want to do it myself, not because it's a waste of time, but I don't have enough time as it is, what with training and schooling, and feel quite happy with how we do things. Having said that, if someone came on to our yard and had practised Parelli to a high level, I would almost certainly see if they could teach us something new and useful...I love learning new things and find it fascinating just how much knowledge is out there, across so many disciplines...all little parts of a puzzle that we can take from and use...

 

[Faithkat]

well said! I've seen Jenny L-C work her horses in hand and she was amazing; I loved the way she "trots" and "canters" with them! I was also horrified to see that the tickets for the Parellis at Stoneleigh are something like £70 - good grief!! They sure know how to charge for everything and sadly people are prepared to pay for it (how gullible).

 

[SavvyHorse]

That's £70 for 2 WHOLE DAYS. Only £35 per day from am to pm. Some people pay more to see music concerts. Don't think that's too much at all.

 

[Faithkat]

Maybe it is for 2 whole days but who would want to go for 2 days and unless you were local it would mean staying somewhere and it is still £70 even if you only go for one day - blooming expensive if you ask me. They are masters of rip-off, if nothing else. £270 for a kit that would cost £15 max to put together. There must be people with way too much money to throw away out there . . .

 

[SavvyHorse]

sorry forester, just your opinion.

I have studied PNH for 4 years and I'm unemployed! I live in Scotland and I am going to the conference. I've saved up Birthday and xmas money and also have clubbed together for a room with others making it much cheaper. There are ways and means of doing anything you want at a price you can afford. It only seems expensive because you dont' want to do it. Fair enough but I'm sure there are other hobbies you probably spend money on that others would think twice about.

None of us worry too much about spending hundreds of pounds on saddles but they too are vastly marked up beyond the price it costs to make them...it's called making a living.

 

[spaniel]

Buckle Bunny, it seems you and I feel much the same way about 'methods' in horsemanship. I too have seen Pat at a demo, I even bought a book, and I have no doubt he IS a good horseman. My issue is with the over zealous marketing and, from my experience of many NH people, the blinkered brainwashed attitudes that come with it.

 

[Rem]

Partoow - you make some really valid comments about "old" horsemastership skills in your post.

This is what the Parellis are trying to get across - Pat himself says what he is doing is "so old it's new". If you are in to biographies, get hold of Pat's, in it he talks about the development of "his" system, and credits his mentors on his journey. Another fabulous book which gives great insight in to the whole thing is Dr Millars "Revolution in Horsemanship", he points out that this whole thing started out with Xenophon, way back in about the 4th century. I would imagine that by now the wheel has been round, square, triangular and gone back to round several times over.

Yes, I am working on my Parelli level 2 at the moment - not because i have a problem horse, but because i saw the relationship that a friend had with her horse who had been brought up Parelli from the day he was born - i wanted just a little bit of that for myself. But - I have also been and watched Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Mark Rashid, Ray Hunt and his grandson and Karl Hester at the EE show last year, and i have been out to America and seen some of the well known clinicians in the states working too - Chris Cox, Clinton Anderson, Stacey Westfall. I take something from all of these people, but i use Parelli as my framework, as it gives me some guidelines to work with and a base to build from and understand other ideas.

 

[Faithkat]

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None of us worry too much about spending hundreds of pounds on saddles but they too are vastly marked up beyond the price it costs to make them...it's called making a living.

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Can't agree with you there about not worrying about spending hundreds of pounds. I don't even own a saddle although I do have a horse and it's mainly because I couldn't afford one. If and when I want to ride, I borrow one but I do have to agree with you about the price of saddles. I think they are a rip-off too and believe that the pricing is a legacy from the days when they were made by hand from scratch but I'm pretty sure that nowadays they are machine made and consequently vastly over-priced. Mind you, the price of some bridles shakes me too - they are a lot of money for a couple of belts and watchstraps!!!

 

[RuthR]

I have to agree with Savvyhorse. Its seems expensive to you because you don't want to see them. Thats fair enough. I'm also traveling down from Scotland to see them as that is what I want to spend my money on. The Parelli are bringing across at least 3 horses (from what I can gather) from the US and that is not a cheap thing to do! The conference tickets are also cheaper than in previous years and are at a better location so I actually think its really good value for money compared to what I have paid in the past.

I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't spend their money on. Each to their own. I'm sure there are things that you would spend money on that would be at the bottom of my list...its just the way the world works. Everyone puts their own value on things - its what a lot of economic theory is based upon.

 

[wattsy]

yes, agreed that PP is expensive but is it value for money.....? Some people have said YES, others NO...
Value for money is entirely down to the individual, isn't it? For instance, you can buy a perfectly good t.shirt from Primark or wherever, but with good branding and marketing, you can pay 5 times as much from a 'posh' shop... it's down to the choice of the consumer. PP 'consumers' are obviously happy with their purchase. As for being a 'rip-off' surely any half decent business person will want to generate the largest amount of revenue. Actually, PP has a pretty good business plan because not only does it make money in the short term, it also looks to the future and ties in it's 'customers' for the long term. The most succesful businesses have a strong, loyal customer base who are only too pleased to advocate their 'purchases'. Powerful stuff!!

 

[RuthR]

Thing is I don't think Pat himself is a good business man - Linda was the one who wrote everything down and Mark Weiler was the one who really branded 'Parelli' and put it out there. They all work together as a team and each brings something different to the organisation. I think the real business savvy comes from Mark...not Pat.

 

[wattsy]

yeah, I heard that before he met his wife he was very low-key. (behind every man....!)

 

[HDT]

Still a couple of angry voices I see, blinded by their own thoughts and can't see things for what they are...


Who cares what things cost, if the iundividual wants to pay the prices asked so be it. If you don't like it then the obvious thing is walk away, don't moan about it...
Stuck in a rut,,, can't see for the fog.... happy to moan....

Are you jealous ..... coz tell ya what I wish I could come up with a marketing scheme to make money and I couldn't care less if people agreed with it or not.

So the Parelli's make money from what they do...good on them...

£35 for a whole days entertainment is pennies.... if you think that is expensive then you want things practically for free.


Needing accommodation if you have to travel...that is pretty obvious and stands for any occasion not just PNH

Parelli being at Stoneleigh... Well PNH is about horses not you and has every right to be there as are others. Just because you don't enjoy PNH doesn't mean others won't.

What I find amusing is reading threads that people have wrote without thinking.... and of threads from people who haven't a real clue of what they are talking about but try to sound like they do.


When I keep hearing petty discusions about money that tells me the one who posted is more concerned about the costs rather than the main issue of the topic. Worried about the cost no matter what the activity...simple...don't buy it...

If the best you can do is moan and grumbe without constructive critism please do us a favour...don't bother.

As I said previously ...all sports etc have good and bad points... yet so many posts are just full of negativity.

By the way it is very easy to point out the bad in things.. much harder to be mature in your thinking and see the positives.

In case someoen mentions the reapeated saying "your only sayiong all this becasue you do Parelli"

I would defend Dressage, Driving and other activities on the same merit stating what I believe in.

 

[Shilasdair]

Very useful for those awkward mule parallel parking moments!
Seriously, what is it doing that is special? Looks normal to me except it's in an electric/tape pen so it can't go away?
S

 

[Shilasdair]

Somehow the words 'vested interest' keep circling in my head when I read your rather bold post.
It must be a great feeling to be one of the 'enlightened ones'!
There isn't much that can't be done with a horse with a bit of peace and some patience.....without great expense to students and others who don't have lots of money to burn.
And I don't believe the Parelli's are a charity (?) unlike the BHS who does it's best for equidae.
S

 

[phaseone]

[ QUOTE ]
And I don't believe the Parelli's are a charity (?) unlike the BHS who does it's best for equidae.
S

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Pity that the intelligent debate seems to have degenerated

Not sure why anyone would want to criticise Parelli for being a business. What is the BHS if not a business? I've just taken a look at what they 'offer' to the majority of horse owners and riders. In my region very little. If you want horse insurance, they have it.

Most interesting was the part about BHS approved riding establishments. The pony I mentioned in an earlier post, with its head tied down IS AT AN APPROVED BHS ESTABLISHMENT! Well, I never would have guessed. What does that say I wonder?

In my area, if the BHS didn't exist at all, we wouldn't notice any difference. Many have accused Parelli folk of being brainwashed, potty people. Of course, this isn't a sign of an ability to engage in intelligent debate. But those who say such things perhaps should understand that to many, many thousands of people, the BHS is seen as an elitist organisation, catering for the needs of the wealthy. That is indeed my belief. I believe it probably as much as some of you believe that we have been brainwashed.

So where does that leave the debate? Am I wrong? If I am, where is your evidence? Should I trust you, believe you? Should I change my opinion?

 

[SavvyHorse]

Shilasdair: "Looks normal to me except it's in an electric/tape pen so it can't go away"

The pens we use are electric fencing but we don't put the electric on, Pat and Linda specify this or it could lead to bullying. We use the pens in a similar way that Monty does but ours are 'gettable out of', his are solid...and believe me our horses tell us when we're using too much pressure as they either jump out of them or push through the tape which breaks, we then know we've asked for too much and we learn to be lighter and more polite.

If we can learn to be polite enough to have our horses do things at liberty in a pen they know they can get out of what's the problem?

 

[Shilasdair]

Hi PP
A business makes profits for its owners/shareholders. The BHS is a charity...the money it makes is returned to do further work.
I am not sure what pony you are talking about....I've seen all sorts of good and bad things in different places....not all BHS people are good/bad, not all Parelli people are good/bad.
BHS membership is relatively cheap at around £50 for Gold...and the socio-economic classification of horse owners suggests they are in the wealthier groups (and often female) - this may be Parellis' market.
As for the debate, you should try hard to make your own mind up, using evidence that you have seen, and your own expertise/experience.
I have seen quite a bit of the horse industry (I'm old!) and have seen enough of NH and BHS to come to my personal (and always open to change) opinions.
S