Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!

I think the thing that bothers me a little is the over emphasis breeding Not everyone can or wants to own a grand prix dressage horse and I expect although happy to be proven wrong that the wastage in getting one like him is high and therefore there are a lot of horses (as with other horse sports) that are too well bred and impossible for the average rider that end up in the wrong hands and a disaster. There are also far more riders overhorsing themselves with these overbred under performing animals for fashion and not really ever riding them to any potential or keeping them locked in stables afarid to ride or even turn them out due to kudos
 
TPO said:
I didn't think this discussion was about pinnacles and instead went down the pathway of the damage to horses.

As soon as we clamber aboard we do damage and cause stress; they physically arent structurally designed to carry weight on their backs.

As the topic veered towards the damage done to purpose bred horses trained and ridden by skilled and experienced people.

I'd agree that far more damage is done by us amateurs out of balance, hauling and catching mouths, shortcuts with pessoas/equiamis/the next "in" gadget, bouncing out of balance, making and letting horses go unbalanced/on the forehand/crooked, wanting to do more without established and correct foundations.

Look how many of our horses in their supposedly kushty loved lives end up damaged and broken? Its just part of having horses when its us but it's over training and greed when it's a professional set up.

If we are trying our best why is it such a reach to think that professional owners, trainers and riders are too?

Whilst there are examples of cruelty and neglect in professional circles there are just as many within amateurs and plenty of threads on here with examples of it in livery yards.

Modern dressage isnt to my taste and I don't like the current fashion for extra extravagant movement but business wise these producers have to produce horses that can compete and be successful otherwise no one wants their breeding. It make literally no sense to push these horses to breaking point.
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All excellent points. Personally I think there’s a different between a horse breaking due to bad riding and a horse breaking because it had been bred in a way that put too much stress on its body. Bad riding can be fixed, and is not looked on as an ideal, but the horse bred past it’s breaking point really had no chance of staying sound, despite being lauded as the top of the sport. Not that this lovely young horse will break, I sincerely hope he doesn’t, but in broader terms.
Of course both bad amateur riding and overtraining/ exaggerated breeding that results in broken horses are bad. But it’s not hypocritical to single out one for a discussion, and you can talk about one without having to mention the other.
 
windand rain said:
I think the thing that bothers me a little is the over emphasis breeding Not everyone can or wants to own a grand prix dressage horse and I expect although happy to be proven wrong that the wastage in getting one like him is high and therefore there are a lot of horses (as with other horse sports) that are too well bred and impossible for the average rider that end up in the wrong hands and a disaster. There are also far more riders overhorsing themselves with these overbred under performing animals for fashion and not really ever riding them to any potential or keeping them locked in stables afarid to ride or even turn them out due to kudos
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Tbh at this price tag its unlikely to be an average rider that ends up with a horse like this.

People don't over horse themselves because of the way horses are bred.
They do it because they aren't honest about what they can cope with.
 
Lillian_paddington said:
All excellent points. Personally I think there’s a different between a horse breaking due to bad riding and a horse breaking because it had been bred in a way that put too much stress on its body. Bad riding can be fixed, and is not looked on as an ideal, but the horse bred past it’s breaking point really had no chance of staying sound, despite being lauded as the top of the sport. Not that this lovely young horse will break, I sincerely hope he doesn’t, but in broader terms.
Of course both bad amateur riding and overtraining/ exaggerated breeding that results in broken horses are bad. But it’s not hypocritical to single out one for a discussion, and you can talk about one without having to mention the other.
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Good points and I agree too but...

Not to my taste (or pocket! Ha ha) but I would imagine that the amount of money being invested in breeding these horses it's the best of the best to the best of the best with lots of hoping for the best (for their job, a highly bred dressage horse is unlikely to succeed in reining for example).

The impression from some posters is that £££ is being spent to make fragile twigs that are then "abused" and pushed beyond breaking point for their amusement?

Not every purpose bred horse reaches its "potential"; sometimes there will be a cause and sometimes sh!t happens...

Not a statistician (obviously!) but horses bred for a purpose, correctly trained for that purpose and used for that purpose (especially with the money apparently available to ensure there is no need to "make do") is bound to be less likely to break than others.

In my blinkered view everyone should be doing the best that they can while learning more so that they can do better. Not all of us are blessed with perfect proportions, cores of steel and impeccable timing but we should be aware when being out of balance, not having an independent seat, gripping/kicking/flapping lowers legs, holding hands hauling in mouths etc IS having a detrimental impact and do something about that even if it means spending a month in walk without stirrups trying to find a seat and develop feel. Riding isnt all sunshine and rainbows.

I'm not saying it HAS to be like that but people in glass houses (not aimed at OP)

It used to happen frequently on here that good riders were torn to shreds, so much so that the 4* riders, FEI judges and such like who were walking thr walk stopped posting on here. Of course it's a discussion forum and of course there is good and bad to be learnt from professionals but it's like tall poppy syndrome. When someone is doing well or something out with the reach of most, not all, is posted then they are annihilated.
 
Does nothing for me personally but then I find dressage a bit like watching paint dry for the most part, sorry dressage peeps ?? Though I do like to watch the hoppity-skippity stuff (flying changes ???) I do very much like Valegro however, but I think it's the partnership he and Charlotte have and the apparently effortless movements he makes. Horses like the one on here seem (to my very, very non expert eye) to have such contrived movement and I find it a little uncomfortable to watch.
I can appreciate a well moving horse but I know nowhere near enough to comment really other than I liked the way he was ridden and I'd give my right arm to ride half as well..!!!
 
TPO said:
It used to happen frequently on here that good riders were torn to shreds, so much so that the 4* riders, FEI judges and such like who were walking thr walk stopped posting on here. Of course it's a discussion forum and of course there is good and bad to be learnt from professionals but it's like tall poppy syndrome. When someone is doing well or something out with the reach of most, not all, is posted then they are annihilated.
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I’m reading responses with interest as I think there is some great discussion and knowledge being shared here. In Australia there has always been an EXTREME level of tall poppy syndrome and I’m disheartened to see some* of the posts head towards personal comments on the rider, which are totally unfair. I think she is an excellent rider, but if I didn’t think so I certainly wouldn’t be posting comments about her riding here. She is doing her job and hasn’t asked to be put in the spotlight.

In terms of the horse I stand by what I said earlier, he didn’t feel like he was struggling with anything he was doing. He was very willing and enjoying his work. His back was very soft so he was actually quite easy to sit to. The breeder has also spent years and years perfecting his program. There is a good article on him and his family on The Horse Magazine and well done to him on reaping the rewards, someone in this industry should make some money.
 
TPO said:
. It make literally no sense to push these horses to breaking point.
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And yet it happens. There was a study done on German dressage horses a few years back now and the wastage rates of young horses was extremely high. I'll try and find it.

And an anecdote of one, so not statistically significant, the best five year old in the country, Farouche, whose movement was not dissimilar to this horse, was crocked and never achieved the great heights predicted, even though she was being ridden and trained by world ranking riders.
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TPO said:
I didn't think this discussion was about pinnacles and instead went down the pathway of the damage to horses.

As soon as we clamber aboard we do damage and cause stress; they physically arent structurally designed to carry weight on their backs.


i don`t think i do damage them, i try never to cause stress, they just get more beautiful from working
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I just watch videos of horses like this and swing wildly between thinking I've never seen anything so beautiful and feeling like I'm looking at a future where dressage is a circus freak show littered with those which fell by the wayside in the search for the one in a million.

Did that madly dishing, extravagant moving 3 year old stallion a few years back, from the same Woodlander stud as Farouche, come to anything? It will be six now.
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ycbm said:
And yet it happens. There was a study done on German dressage horses a few years back now and the wastage rates of young horses was extremely high. I'll try and find it.

And an anecdote of one, so not statistically significant, the best five year old in the country, Farouche, whose movement was not dissimilar to this horse, was crocked by 7 even though she was being ridden and trained by world high rank riders.
.
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It's very well publicised that Farouche has a wonky front limb. She did compete at small tour level up to the age of 10.
 
ycbm said:
And yet it happens. There was a study done on German dressage horses a few years back now and the wastage rates of young horses was extremely high. I'll try and find it.

And an anecdote of one, so not statistically significant, the best five year old in the country, Farouche, whose movement was not dissimilar to this horse, was crocked by 7 even though she was being ridden and trained by world ranking riders.
.
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And just as antidotal is all the broken horses still in use by amateur owner/riders who can't see the obvious and carry on causing harm. I dont k ow at what stage ignorance stops being an accepted answer?

No one can know it all and there's always something to learn but there are some pretty awful sights out there and/or posted as "highlights" and applauded as.

If you look hard enough theres something wrong with every horse. The better the horse(wo)man the earlier they notice the slightest of things whereas theres plenty of evidence of those that don't know/cant feel riding horses that arent right/sound so on and so forth. How do you quantify that?

No one knows (well maybe @Kahlua does!) how this horse is being trained and what is being addressed. It seems to be ok for "us" to give a narrative that's accepted as "we" know what we are doing and why but apparently the same can't be true of actual experienced and skilled professionals
 
ycbm said:
I just watch videos of horses like this and swing wildly between thinking I've never seen anything so beautiful and feeling like I'm looking at a future where dressage is a circus freak show littered with those which fell by the wayside in the search for the one in a million.

Did that madly dishing, extravagant moving 3 year old stallion a few years back, from the same Woodlander stud as Farouche, come to anything? It will be six now.
.
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Me too. I fell out of love with modern dressage a long time ago and stopped competing and riding these sort of purpose bred horses; they are not fun, they are incredibly hard work. The hypermobility and extreme movement is a tough one - yes it's amazing, but I don't enjoy watching (or riding) it. There is a high wastage of horses in most if not all high level sport: look at race horses for instance - less than 2% (if I remember right...) of any given foaling year ever set foot on a race course, let alone win anything.
 
Auslander said:
Bet they'll regret buying him without asking for the collective input of loads of people on a forum!

I think he is wonderful, and I'd give my eye teeth to sit on a horse of that calibre again.
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I used to ride a horse that cost 4.5 million as a yearling. What he cost on that day courtesy of his bloodlines meant nothing compared to what he was worth as a 5yo national hunt gelding - think more 4.5k ?
 
tristar said:
i don`t think i do damage them, i try never to cause stress, they just get more beautiful from working
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You do because they are structurally built like a suspension bridge. As soon as you put a rider, never mind Saddlery and/or shoes, on and ask them to do anything you are causing stress and damage. Topline, muscles for cadence while carrying a rider etc are only developed by tearing muscles to rebuild into a form able to do what we ask of a horse.

To think that you do no harm and cause no stress is very ignorant
 
TPO said:
And just as antidotal is all the broken horses still in use by amateur owner/riders who can't see the obvious and carry on causing harm. I dont k ow at what stage ignorance stops being an accepted answer?

No one can know it all and there's always something to learn but there are some pretty awful sights out there and/or posted as "highlights" and applauded as.

If you look hard enough theres something wrong with every horse. The better the horse(wo)man the earlier they notice the slightest of things whereas theres plenty of evidence of those that don't know/cant feel riding horses that arent right/sound so on and so forth. How do you quantify that?

No one knows (well maybe @Kahlua does!) how this horse is being trained and what is being addressed. It seems to be ok for "us" to give a narrative that's accepted as "we" know what we are doing and why but apparently the same can't be true of actual experienced and skilled professionals
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all of this
I read a study the other day that was relevant to a thread on here about riding school horses and whether their riders could tell they were lame or not. a huge % of them were lame and it was basically undetected by their normal handlers. I've just left a yard where most of the people were still riding out lame old crocks. that pains me far more than "wastage" in search of elite sports horses.
 
milliepops said:
all of this
I read a study the other day that was relevant to a thread on here about riding school horses and whether their riders could tell they were lame or not. a huge % of them were lame and it was basically undetected by their normal handlers. I've just left a yard where most of the people were still riding out lame old crocks. that pains me far more than "wastage" in search of elite sports horses.
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I dunno about that though...they are all horses aren't they? None of them know or care whether they are wastage in the search for perfection or just wastage because of poor management/riding/care. It is certainly challenging to consider that actually most horses are either damaged or on the way to being damaged because of our interaction with them.
 
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palo1 said:
I dunno about that though...they are all horses aren't they? None of them know or care whether they are wastage in the search for perfection or just wastage because of poor management/riding/care. It is certainly challenging to consider that actually most horses are either damaged or on the way to being damaged because of our interaction with them.
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in terms of length of suffering, I think it does matter.
A sports horse in a breeding or competition programme is not likely to be kept on for a decade or more when it's not -literally- fit for purpose. whereas owners who *love* their horses will keep them going either ignorant to or simply failing to address issues.

eta and I'm consciously skirting around the rabbit hole about whether we should ride them at all ;) not able to deal with that one today!
 
palo1 said:
I dunno about that though...they are all horses aren't they? None of them know or care whether they are wastage in the search for perfection or just wastage because of poor management/riding/care. It is certainly challenging to consider that actually most horses are either damaged or on the way to being damaged because of our interaction with them.
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I might have the wrong end of the stick but I think that the difference is that we know about the "broken" pro horses because they are retired. It could be for something incredibly slight/minor that someone with less experience and knowledge might have missed.

A "normal" horse could have the same thing but stay in work because it isnt noticed and/or there isnt the finance to investigate to the nth degree like some professional set ups have at their disposal.
 
milliepops said:
in terms of length of suffering, I think it does matter.
A sports horse in a breeding or competition programme is not likely to be kept on for a decade or more when it's not -literally- fit for purpose. whereas owners who *love* their horses will keep them going either ignorant to or simply failing to address issues.

eta and I'm consciously skirting around the rabbit hole about whether we should ride them at all ;) not able to deal with that one today!
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Agree. A pro will be more likely to cut the horse loose (i.e. stop training it) when it is obvious that the horse is not capable, possibly because it is quite difficult to get it past all the FEI checks and tests, or simply not up to the competition, not necessarily due to compassion. A "loving" owner is often the one who keeps an old, crocked horse going way beyond what is kind or sensible.

I know one chap who kept his horse alive until she was 34, and had to be hauled upright with a tractor loader, just to say he had a 34 year old horse. He rode her then too. It was disgraceful, I was so relieved when she upped and died - she should have been put down years before.
 
TPO said:
You do because they are structurally built like a suspension bridge. As soon as you put a rider, never mind Saddlery and/or shoes, on and ask them to do anything you are causing stress and damage. Topline, muscles for cadence while carrying a rider etc are only developed by tearing muscles to rebuild into a form able to do what we ask of a horse.

To think that you do no harm and cause no stress is very ignorant


that is utter rubbish
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TPO said:
I might have the wrong end of the stick but I think that the difference is that we know about the "broken" pro horses because they are retired. It could be for something incredibly slight/minor that someone with less experience and knowledge might have missed.

A "normal" horse could have the same thing but stay in work because it isnt noticed and/or there isnt the finance to investigate to the nth degree like some professional set ups have at their disposal.
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Yes I agree with that but sadly not all 'pro' horses that are broken are retired or put down. Many of them get passed on or sold as 'dreams' for more amateur riders who will either not notice problems or not have the same scrutiny as pro riders. Very sad and rather depressing.
 
HashRouge said:
It's not though, is it?

I'm sure you are very nice to your horses and treat them very well, but ultimately they aren't designed to be ridden. So if you ride them, you will be doing some harm to them, even if you don't mean to.
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i am not `nice`` to them, i treat them with respect

i do believe god gave us horses to ride,the horses i breed are designed to be ridden , i took a great deal of trouble to find horses that have the loins and strength of back to carry, and bred from them.

i`d be interested to know how you think i am er... harming them?
 
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