Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!

[tristar]

Like #2! Sadly searching down the back of the sofa has only come up with 12p so he's also not joining my herd. The slow mo of that extension and the pressure on the joints does show why they can break easily - but then that isn't limited to flash warmbloods as my vet bills this year prove. Really interesting article on the Borgmanns and their breeding strategy - thanks for sharing.

There was a post shared on FB earlier today about the Spanish riding school. I've seen similar articles before where they say although it takes a decade to train up their horses to the top performers they are choosing young stallions who are already showing talent at liberty in their youngstock fields. My eye isn't educated but I guess the Dutch team who forked out €1.6m are seeing the equivalent (another happy hacker who would happily have a go if it was offered up!!!!)

i thought about eight years was the timescale, its not just about getting there, its about how the time taken to reach the top results in the best quality of the gp movements, not just as its been said weakness, its about the quality of the end result.

i believe it takes some time longer to train the airs above the ground

 

[Buster2020]

Wouldn’t you be sick if you actually bought a horse for that money and the horse gos lame and cannot be ridden and you cannot us it as breeding stallion because it wasn’t successful. I personally think it is risky buying a horse for that money with no experience in the higher levels of dressage.

 

[tristar]

Thank you that article is interesting, although I note the controversy about his sire with them stating this

'Interesting that About You was sold to The Netherlands, since he is by the Dutch stallion, Apache (by the Jazz grandson, UB40 out of a Krack C mare). A somewhat temperamental individual, Apache nonetheless competed in the Dutch team at the 2018 WEG with Emmelie Scholtens, and placed 8th at the 2019 World Cup final. He was put down last year after suffering severe laminitis, his later career being somewhat clouded when he proved WFFS positive.'
Which is a risk to take if you were wanting him for a breeding stallion and paid £1.5 mil for. However I do hope we see his full potential as he could be really super.

the jazzès i knew were hot ish,

of course they can always collect and freeze, as an insurance

 

[Chianti]

Someone famous - can't remember who - said that a horse only had so much passage in it so you should be very careful where you used it. It seems an awful lot for a big horse to be doing at four bearing in mind how much of him won't actually be complete yet.

 

[j1ffy]

Thank you that article is interesting, although I note the controversy about his sire with them stating this

'Interesting that About You was sold to The Netherlands, since he is by the Dutch stallion, Apache (by the Jazz grandson, UB40 out of a Krack C mare). A somewhat temperamental individual, Apache nonetheless competed in the Dutch team at the 2018 WEG with Emmelie Scholtens, and placed 8th at the 2019 World Cup final. He was put down last year after suffering severe laminitis, his later career being somewhat clouded when he proved WFFS positive.'
Which is a risk to take if you were wanting him for a breeding stallion and paid £1.5 mil for. However I do hope we see his full potential as he could be really super.

I think most of the WFFS testing was done less than 5 years ago, so Apache's WFFS+ may have been unknown when About You was conceived. No doubt he's now been tested otherwise it would be a massive risk!

 

[Roxylola]

Someone famous - can't remember who - said that a horse only had so much passage in it so you should be very careful where you used it. It seems an awful lot for a big horse to be doing at four bearing in mind how much of him won't actually be complete yet.

I think Carl has certainly said something like that regarding Uthopia and his extended trot - if I recall rightly it was at a demo not long after he was sold

 

[milliepops]

I think the same is true of all of the more advanced work though, for all horses - it's all putting additional strain on a horse's body which many of us think is not designed for it
However, if you're preparing an auction video for a super duper horse, you're going to show what it's capable of.

 

[Auslander]

your post is one of the reasons so many people don`t post on here any more,

you can give it , but you can`t take it, you don`t like a taste of your own medicine!

Was this actually intended for me? I@m not entirely sure where I have responded to any post in a way that indicates that I can't "take it". I merely agreed with another poster that you were being unpleasant.
You say that my post is one of the reasons people don't post on here any more, but you are the one who has shown yourself in a less then pleasant light on this thread.

 

[tristar]

Was this actually intended for me? I@m not entirely sure where I have responded to any post in a way that indicates that I can't "take it". I merely agreed with another poster that you were being unpleasant.
You say that my post is one of the reasons people don't post on here any more, but you are the one who has shown yourself in a less then pleasant light on this thread.

if you want to play unpleasant tennis balls please carry on, there has been more than a little unpleasantness towards me, but don`t bother about that, its quite normal on here

the mp question was posed in such a way it appeared to be intended to lead to further nastiness, so i chose not to reply. also the wording did not make a lot of sense.

and i did not need water with it thank you

i think a lot of people would be apprehensive of saying anything on here lest it should be misconstrued and pounced on , at least give me some credit for bravery

 

[ester]

 

[tristar]

[/QUOTE

don`t be so nasty

have you actually said anything on this thread about the horse,remind me please?

your forte is standing on the sidelines taking a pop, don`t forget your mask!

 

[milliepops]

the mp question was posed in such a way it appeared to be intended to lead to further nastiness, so i chose not to reply. also the wording did not make a lot of sense.

leaving the tennis balls to one side, you still haven't answered the question I asked which was a genuine one
if you think it's nasty then I can't help with that, I really am interested in your answer. I don't understand your position of thinking the horse is built to carry people when all the anatomical evidence and biomechanical etc experts say otherwise.

 

[tristar]

I think the same is true of all of the more advanced work though, for all horses - it's all putting additional strain on a horse's body which many of us think is not designed for it
However, if you're preparing an auction video for a super duper horse, you're going to show what it's capable of.

but all the gp movements are defined as natural to the horse, defined by fei, or they would not be present in tests, i thought that was the criterea

 

[ester]

yup before you did tristar. No need to remind you you could have just looked yourself.

Mask free day today as not doing covid testing , talking about fortes and all.

not sure why a pic of something you said is nasty but there you go.

 

[milliepops]

but all the gp movements are defined as natural to the horse, defined by fei, or they would not be present in tests, i thought that was the criterea

natural to the horse is one thing, but if a horse went round for it's entire life in passage or extended trot it would knacker its legs pretty fast and probably not make it to double figures!

 

[tristar]

natural to the horse is one thing, but if a horse went round for it's entire life in passage or extended trot it would knacker its legs pretty fast and probably not make it to double figures!

well i was going to add, of course that as we all know they only do those movements in small doses, when turned out or of their own volition, they don`t gallop all the time neither, what is true is that they do passage etc naturally, at liberty, they can do without being taught

i just wrote a long post then saw this and deleted it out because you have your way and i have mine, and i can`t see any point saying anything else, so good luck to you

 

[tristar]

yup before you did tristar. No need to remind you you could have just looked yourself.

Mask free day today as not doing covid testing , talking about fortes and all.

not sure why a pic of something you said is nasty but there you go.

just returning the compliment!

thanks for the balls

 

[milliepops]

well i was going to add, of course that as we all know they only do those movements in small doses, when turned out or of their own volition, they don`t gallop all the time neither, what is true is that they do passage etc naturally, at liberty, they can do without being taught

i just wrote a long post then saw this and deleted it out because you have your way and i have mine, and i can`t see any point saying anything else, so good luck to you

would have been interested to see your reply. It's not really my way, I am happy to take the knowledge of experts and apply it so when someone says that the horse is a basically weak design so you need to take care to develop it for highly unnatural and strenuous ridden work to minimise wear and tear (I'd be amazed if you don't think that GP level work is strenuous, surely on that we must agree?! ) . But I was interested to hear your POV which seemed to be in opposition to that. tis a discussion forum after all.

 

[tristar]

if you asked me a specific question, i could possibly answer it, i just find your way of asking too complicated to understand what you are asking really!

i get the jist of some of it, but the way you put it is confusing

i`m not sure, if you are saying i am saying , or the experts are saying horses are inherently weak?

but i can`t imagine why you want to know what i think, its been made embarrassing clear, that i am considered to be, nasty, totally ignorant where horse skeletons, and physiology are concerned, i drink, and play with fairies oh, sorry magical ponies in the garden, so why someone who competes at a high level is asking me i can`t understand unless it is to provoke a continuation of the fun and games, and another lovely outburst from the TPO person.

just for TPO , i`m going outside now to play with unicorns ta ra

 

[TPO]

just for TPO , i`m going outside now to play with unicorns ta ra

Now that I find easier to believe than you having a clue about any of the wild statements that you've made, not only on this thread, about training and physiology.

 

[tristar]

Now that I find easier to believe than you having a clue about any of the wild statements that you've made, not only on this thread, about training and physiology.

oh please please, tell me what sin i have committed, you have made the statement now please do me the justice of some examples?

thanks in advance

i`m bloody fascinated now to be honest, i can`t imagine, as i only talk about what i do myself

 

[IrishMilo]

I think some horses (i.e. this one, Totilas) are just freaks of nature so to speak. I don't necessarily think they were explicitly bred to move in the totally exaggerated way that they do. But once they have this movement what do you do? Banish them to retirement because they might break, or profit (not just in a monetary sense) from what you have (and probably be insanely successful)?

99.9% of horse owners spend their entire life working to keep their horse sound as the inherent nature of them is that they break, whether it's a Cob who hacks once a week or a top performance horse. Their conformation is ridiculous - long backs, heavy bodies, a pea sized brain and spindly legs no where near strong enough to support them. I think it's more an question of when they break rather than if and I think most of it is pot luck...

 

[shortstuff99]

On the design of horses for riding, I would say there has been *some* effort of improving their design from human breeding over the millennia. A modern horse is a far cry from the original wild horse (of which there are none left now). Whether that has been massively successful I guess would be a long post ?

 

[DabDab]

I'm really conflicted on stuff like this. Not because of the horse, the horse is beautiful, and the rider incredibly capable. The thing I struggle with in the continued increase of horses like this is that it feels more and more like the sport of dressage is moving irrecoverably away from the main emphasis of being about training and more and more towards having enough money to buy a horse that came out of the womb being able to do it.

Yes, there is still exceptional skill required to produce a horse like the one in the OP to the top, but the nature of the market is undoubtedly changing the nature of the sport, and it doesn't sit particularly comfortably with me being that way round.

 

[oldie48]

"I'm really conflicted on stuff like this. Not because of the horse, the horse is beautiful, and the rider incredibly capable. The thing I struggle with in the continued increase of horses like this is that it feels more and more like the sport of dressage is moving irrecoverably away from the main emphasis of being about training and more and more towards having enough money to buy a horse that came out of the womb being able to do it. "
I think all horse sports are like that though but these horses still have to be trained correctly and ridden extremely well. They are not horses for amateurs but to some extent the breeding does get passed down the line and amateurs end up having a lot of fun on very nice horses(still fairly pricey ones though).I have friends with horses by Don Schufro, Bellisimo M and Utopia for eg, they have lovely movement but they are still suitable for a good amateur and although they paid a decent price for them they weren't outrageously expensive. It's a bit like motor sport, we can't afford to buy an F1 car and probably couldn't drive it either but some of the refinements end up in road cars.

 

[Regandal]

He is truly stunning.
It makes me slightly sad that I will never be able to ride like that, but there’s a tiny part of me that is inspired to try a little bit harder, pay more attention to my position etc.
Which can only benefit my little horse.

 

[ycbm]

I'm really conflicted on stuff like this. Not because of the horse, the horse is beautiful, and the rider incredibly capable. The thing I struggle with in the continued increase of horses like this is that it feels more and more like the sport of dressage is moving irrecoverably away from the main emphasis of being about training and more and more towards having enough money to buy a horse that came out of the womb being able to do it.

Yes, there is still exceptional skill required to produce a horse like the one in the OP to the top, but the nature of the market is undoubtedly changing the nature of the sport, and it doesn't sit particularly comfortably with me being that way round.

Totally with you DD. I don't see how they can continue to keep sports where the equipment costs at least half a million per person in the Olympics. It will be almost impossible, with breeding for success like this, for ordinary people ever to make it to the top in national or international dressage or show jumping.
.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I still think, after all that, I'd still rather have Roman-nosed Eddie and £1,493,500. Unfortunately I have neither! ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I could bring Roman nose Eddie up to you, PF, and come back with a couple of rounds of your lovely hay .

 

[DabDab]

I think all horse sports are like that though but these horses still have to be trained correctly and ridden extremely well. They are not horses for amateurs but to some extent the breeding does get passed down the line and amateurs end up having a lot of fun on very nice horses(still fairly pricey ones though).I have friends with horses by Don Schufro, Bellisimo M and Utopia for eg, they have lovely movement but they are still suitable for a good amateur and although they paid a decent price for them they weren't outrageously expensive. It's a bit like motor sport, we can't afford to buy an F1 car and probably couldn't drive it either but some of the refinements end up in road cars.

Well showjumping has always been like that, but then the aim of showjumping has always been to clear the fences, not to demonstrate exemplary training. And eventing still has a really wide range of horses at the top levels, and therefore all through the other levels. Personally I'm not really into the car comparison, and I'm not sure dressage wants to get itself into the same zone as F1, with constantly changing rules specifically to attempt to level the field between the uber uber rich and the just uber rich.