Dressage What does a £1.5million dressage 4 year old look like? This!

In regard to nothing really, but my 27 year old new forest does passage an piaffe entirely of her own accord and my 18 year old well bred dwb defaults to medium or extended trot whenever she can get away with it. Not trained, practised or encouraged in either case!
 
I'm not sure how you stop horse breeding going more and more towards the spectacular though.
The spectacular ones still do have to be trained, they aren't going to do a line of perfectly straight one tempis by themselves so its not an either/or situation.

Unless someone is proposing handicap scores, I which case sign me up and I'll see you at the nationals ?????
 
milliepops said:
I'm not sure how you stop horse breeding going more and more towards the spectacular though.
The spectacular ones still do have to be trained, they aren't going to do a line of perfectly straight one tempis by themselves so its not an either/or situation.

Unless someone is proposing handicap scores, I which case sign me up and I'll see you at the nationals ?????
Click to expand...


It's an unstoppable future, I think, but it does need removing from the Olympics, where the principle is that the medals should be accessible to people from all countries and it isn't, it's a very elite sport already and getting worse.
.
 
Hmmm. I think that argument could count for a large number of sports where either kit, training facilities or general funding play a huge part in an athlete's ability to get started and then succeed.

I don't think the Olympic skipping rope competition would be quite as interesting.

I think by this measure that all equestrian sport would have to go. I'm not sure I'd support that personally. Though I do obviously acknowledge the huge advantage that coming from an affluent background and a country with a strong history in the discipline gives.
 
milliepops said:
I'm not sure how you stop horse breeding going more and more towards the spectacular though.
The spectacular ones still do have to be trained, they aren't going to do a line of perfectly straight one tempis by themselves so its not an either/or situation.

Unless someone is proposing handicap scores, I which case sign me up and I'll see you at the nationals ?????
Click to expand...

How it is judged, I.e. the rules of the sport. It's hard and will never be a level playing field, but personally I think it could be better, and I think it is fairly evident that it could be better, otherwise horses like this wouldn't fetch the money they do - big bucks are paying for a big advantage.

It is starting to take away the essence of the sport for me. And I'm not at all the only one who feels like that.
 
Another aspect though is are these horses actually changing what is modern dressage? The real lack of collection seen by these top horses, particularly the piaffe, which they find impossible as their paces are so huge, are now being scored well. This means others emulate it and thus it starts changing, not necessarily for the better.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Another aspect though is are these horses actually changing what is modern dressage? The real lack of collection seen by these top horses, particularly the piaffe, which they find impossible as their paces are so huge, are now being scored well. This means others emulate it and thus it starts changing, not necessarily for the better.
Click to expand...

Yep. This very particular type of horse is going beyond being good at the sport and is becoming the sport.
 
DabDab said:
How it is judged, I.e. the rules of the sport. It's hard and will never be a level playing field, but personally I think it could be better, and I think it is fairly evident that it could be better, otherwise horses like this wouldn't fetch the money they do - big bucks are paying for a big advantage.

It is starting to take away the essence of the sport for me. And I'm not at all the only one who feels like that.
Click to expand...
Well I understand that, but i guess for me people have been talking about stuff like this for years and years but nothing changes.... except the quality of the horses (and, I think there's a case for the quality of training having improved too, less obvious bias towards the push and pull or the rollkur of various nations ;) ).

I just can't see it happening really.
 
ycbm said:
It's an unstoppable future, I think, but it does need removing from the Olympics, where the principle is that the medals should be accessible to people from all countries and it isn't, it's a very elite sport already and getting worse.
.
Click to expand...
You'd have to take equestrian sports out altogether though I think, they're so inaccessible to people from so many countries and I don't think you could ever change that. I've seen some incredibly nice horses doing piaffe in street parades in Nicaragua, but you're never going to get a Nicaraguan dressage rider at the Olympics.
 
Fair enough, I think it is already happening to a large extent (people have been talking about it for a while because it has been happening for a while). Again, I'm not particularly uncommon in seeing that and feeling that way, but generally it is an opinion that is shushed as being sour grapes coming from someone who simply doesn't understand.

I guess you are either bought into it or not and there will probably just be a continued increase in the championships for various types of non-warmblood as people try to keep the sport relevant to them.

ETA: was replying to MP
 
milliepops said:
Hmmm. I think that argument could count for a large number of sports where either kit, training facilities or general funding play a huge part in an athlete's ability to get started and then succeed.

I don't think the Olympic skipping rope competition would be quite as interesting.

I think by this measure that all equestrian sport would have to go. I'm not sure I'd support that personally. Though I do obviously acknowledge the huge advantage that coming from an affluent background and a country with a strong history in the discipline gives.
Click to expand...

I think the point is that you can prove you can run fast, and deserve some investment, by running fast in bare feet. And similar examples for almost every other Olympic sport I can think of. But you can only prove you're worthy of investment in Olympic level dressage by riding horses of close to that calibre, and that's simply unachievable, no matter how good a rider you have the capability to be, unless you are already absolutely loaded or have stellar connections.
.
 
daffy44 said:
Three trot extensions, one extended walk, one extended canter. How do you classify the collection, as the rest of the test is technically collected paces?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what I'm classifying as collection lol, I was just wondering if it could be suggested that the current scoring system might have an effect on what is now, the best horse for the job. (and slight pondering whether coefficients could alter that).
 
ester said:
I'm not sure what I'm classifying as collection lol, I was just wondering if it could be suggested that the current scoring system might have an effect on what is now, the best horse for the job. (and slight pondering whether coefficients could alter that).
Click to expand...

Yes, I think you could alter things by altering the scoring emphasis, but probably the style of judging has more influence. From the scoring persective you probably need to look at the double marked movements, as they carry the most influence, and none of the extensions are double marked.
 
Personally not sure dressage should be a competitive sport.

I feel it should be a means to an end not an end in itself.

Dressage training should be an antidote to the potential damage caused by riding horses... not add to it. As soon as it becomes competitive that starts to get lost I think.

Not that silly little me and my silly little opinions matter a damn. But that's just what I think.
 
DabDab said:
Fair enough, I think it is already happening to a large extent (people have been talking about it for a while because it has been happening for a while). Again, I'm not particularly uncommon in seeing that and feeling that way, but generally it is an opinion that is shushed as being sour grapes coming from someone who simply doesn't understand.

I guess you are either bought into it or not and there will probably just be a continued increase in the championships for various types of non-warmblood as people try to keep the sport relevant to them.

ETA: was replying to MP
Click to expand...
I'm not sure i personally am bought into it, I just don't realistically expect anything to change the course that the sport is on.

on an individual level I'd say the opposite is true... I can only rely on my training as I have almost negative levels of horsepower ?

The non-wb champs are a funny no man's land, i am in support of anything that makes the sport more inclusive but there's a fair amount of sniffyness about them from some who consider themselves the higher-ups ?
 
ycbm said:
I think the point is that you can prove you can run fast, and deserve some investment, by running fast in bare feet. And similar examples for almost every other Olympic sport I can think of. But you can only prove you're worthy of investment in Olympic level dressage by riding horses of close to that calibre, and that's simply unachievable, no matter how good a rider you have the capability to be, unless you are already absolutely loaded or have stellar connections.
.
Click to expand...
I think sailing would have to go! And possibly lots of the winter sports cos you can't be a natural skiier if you live in a desert.
 
the movements which get double marks make quite a difference so the horses which excel in those movements can score highly. i think things like piaffe ,half pass, pirouettes, and extended and collected walk have double marks, not sure if there are any more, i used to do a lot of dressage writing not riding myself but it is very interesting how much difference mistakes in the piaffe for instance make to the final score. they also used to mark the paces as an extra at the end so a horse with great paces not only got marked up during but also got marked up in the collectives. i think that has recently changed to make it fairer...
 
ycbm said:
I think the point is that you can prove you can run fast, and deserve some investment, by running fast in bare feet. And similar examples for almost every other Olympic sport I can think of. But you can only prove you're worthy of investment in Olympic level dressage by riding horses of close to that calibre, and that's simply unachievable, no matter how good a rider you have the capability to be, unless you are already absolutely loaded or have stellar connections.
.
Click to expand...

Someone could also train horses to a high level and never leave their field. You have to be somewhere to be "spotted" and be spotted by the right person regardless if you are running or riding.

The first example that comes to mind is Phoebe Buckley being spotted riding a pony bare back in a field (hopefully not mis-remembering the interview) by someone able to do something with her talent i.e. provide horses, funding, opportunity and know how the horse world worked.

Money, talent and hardwork...is the saying not that you need at least 2 out of 3?

Dressage is subjective but I'd argue that show jumping and racing is one of the fairest sports as in you finish clear and quick to win.

I agree that dressage horses do appear to currently be heading in a certain direction but if trends have changed to that why cant they change to whatever it is that some posters seem to think is better? If these purpose bred horses cant do the job then why arent the types that allegedly can not being used?

If certain movements cant be performed but the current wave of horses why arent the horses that can being used?

At that level, and with that amount of money involved, people are in it to win. It makes no sense that they woulsnt be using everything at their disposal to have the best performing horse competed by the best rider etc.

It's like saying you cant compete in running because your conformation coupled with your parents affording athletic training from a young age gives you an advantage and that's not fair. To me that makes no sense, it's supposed to be about the best of the best competing unless I'm misunderstanding the whole point of sporting competitions?

As I've said numerous times I'm not a fan of modern dressage & not a huge fan of most of the classical followers' riding either that I've seen. That doesnt mean that I cant see form and function and appreciate the skill required to train and keep a horse fit and sound.

It might well be a slippery slope but I've no idea how poor (relatively speaking) people at mainly grassroots levels hope to influence high level breeding operations. By all means have you own morals and principals, train your horses ethically and dont do anything that you feel uncomfortable with but surely any decisions and opinions should be formed based on evidence and knowledge (which is subject to change as you learn more)?

I find it ironically funny some.of the things that are allowed to fly on the forum, often supported and lauded, and then the connections of a purpose bred well trained and cared for horse are called into question for the horse literally displaying basic gaits and transitions, happily I may add.
 
ycbm said:
It's about exclusion on the basis purely of money, not location, which can't be helped.
.
Click to expand...
I think what I was getting at is that if you were a rich person from a desert type country then you could afford to base yourself somewhere that winter sports were *a thing*.

Bit like some event riders from abroad base themselves here or in other European countries where there's a strong eventing scene.
 
TPO, kit which gives one athlete a big competitive advantage over another is expressly excluded in other Olympic sports. You might as well have formula 1 racing as an Olympic sport of dressage is going to be about who can play the most for the most perfectly bred horse. Hamilton is a great, great driver, but it's the car that's winning year after year over the other great drivers. Do we want that for dressage?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top