What is the obsession..

Birker2020

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I wish horses showing they are stressed were marked down more in tests. Tails windmilling throughout the test is something I really hate to see.
You'd be surprised if you saw how many of these were on sales videos. I must have seen at least a dozen or more in my journey so far that I've been sent videos for that either crouch down on landing and then leap forward (pain response) or who really swish their tails after the fence or when asked to canter on the short side of the arena whilst the rider desperately tries to stop them swapping behind usually because their hocks are hurting. I'm no vet but its so obvious you wonder in hell how they will ever sell them.
 

CanteringCarrot

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I wish horses showing they are stressed were marked down more in tests. Tails windmilling throughout the test is something I really hate to see.

Silly me thought that one would get marked down for teeth grinding and lameness...nope. The judges are strict here, but many wouldn't know a lame horse if it hobbled up to them and slapped them in the face. One said it's not his job ? I mean, yeah, you're not a vet, but it's still worth noting on the score sheet if a horse is visibly lame, IMO.

I do worry about constant judging (a lot of it from people who are unqualified, tbh) when posting videos or photos. We are forever a WIP. It's sort of the same at the yard, tbh. Many expect the finished product. If you struggle, have have ugly moment, or aren't perfect, your horse is bad ? riiiight.

My horse and I often push our mental limits, so we often toe the line between brilliant and disaster, tbh. When he learns new things he can be a total wreck (not a confident horse and has to know exactly what he's doing), but I know it's part of the process sometimes sometimes him. There are times to back off and there are times when I have to push through and show him he can do it. According to some people, we're surely sh*t. ?

Another aspect is the social media highlight reel. People mainly or only post brags, highlights, fun stuff, and the good stuff. It's like being a human is forbidden. It's fine to say when it's gone to sh*t or when you're down. No one should be looked down upon for that.

Quite frankly I don't know how to/don't have the energy to be that fake ?
 

lynz88

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moving away from the rider in the OP i do think we can get hung up on BTV when it's one small part of a training whole, it's not the worst thing that can happen during the training process if it's understood and recognised as being a journey and not the finished article or the end goal. i think many riders would say sometimes you ride the horse a bit deeper to help with submission or suppleness (deliberate) or the horse dips down because its understanding of the contact or strength etc isn't right there all the time (accidental).

I think vanishingly few people could say they have the horse in the textbook frame 100% of the time and so anyone who posts content of horses or riders *doing learning* including top pros is likely to include a bit of BTV, as well as a bit of hollowing, some not perfect rhythm and various other faults. it's just the BTV is so easy to see that it catches the eye.

for the avoidance of doubt I'm not condoning flexing your biceps and rollkuring your horse, tbf i don't think that's what this guy is doing regardless of my personal opinions of his SM presence but anyway. I guess for me putting stuff on the internet is not the same as saying look at my finished article, this is perfection. it's not that we shouldn't be able to critique stuff, but we also shouldn't assume that people think they've got it nailed when they post stuff online.

Agree with this but I see more often than not, posts that caption things like "working over the back" or "working on the bit" when the horse is clearly overflexed and back is dropped/hollow. I also see posts from people who regularly compete at Hickstead and the likes riding their horse (who has been in regular training work for a number of years) consistently behind the bit. To me, it is a problem when it is the norm rather than exception if that makes sense.

This is also very different to having a moment of being behind the vertical and going through a training process and the horse not having quite enough strength to keep itself round the whole time. We certainly can't all be "perfect" all of the time - wouldn't that be nice if we could be!
 

milliepops

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i just unfollow stuff that i think is rubbish, i suppose. the views and clicks will just feed it.

All my horsey friends train their horses in a way that I think is good, its often part of the reason we've become friends. My FB feed is generally quite pleasant :D I feel sorry for the people who get my stream of consciousness drivel tbh :p
 

bunandpancake

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Unfortunately there’s a big trend in worrying about where the horse’s head is and not about a complete picture-not just on social media, but everywhere it seems. You should check out @blondedressage on tik tok, she’s a fantastic creator and her commentary has always been spot on. Her old horse was doing Spanish walk and piaffes without any gadgets-she’s a true dressage rider IMO
 

Red-1

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I looked at the rest of the page and think the comments have been rather harsh! From what I can make out, they are promoting clothing, not running an instructional site.

I also think there is too much emphasis on head position. Take my new youngster, he has mostly been above the bit in our schooling sessions, tension but not from the ridden thing, he has been nosying at his surroundings. If I have tried to bring his attention back into the ring, it accentuates the resistance, so I have engaged his brain in other ways, with interesting work and transitions. When he pays attention, it all falls into place. For context, he is a 4yo who was imported a few weeks ago.

On Thursday, I took him for a pole clinic at a BS venue, with 2 clinics going on side by side. His first ever clinic. He was well behaved and mannerly, but obviously distracted. We made the work interesting. Suddenly, from being somewhat hard to steer with a bit of a numb feel and raised head, he raised his back, went (too) light and overbent. The trainer advised me to not let him get too heavy, but he hadn't - he had gone light while he studied the poles and drew himself up. I also think he may have been tired and was trying out different positions - we finished soon after.

Photos from the second part of the lesson would have me hung, drawn and quartered for being overbent by many people.

I think many horses go through a stage of being hard and above the bit, then being too low and over bent, until they find the sweet spot. Just like how babies initially won't take the outer track, then for a while you can't get them off the fence, before they find that sweet spot right between your legs too.

I would agree to criticise if the man was selling training videos saying look, how good is my horse's head carriage, but it isn't. Other photos on the FB page show a standard set up. On the video, his hands don't look fixed with a straight arm.

I think critique shouldn't be done off a single photo, unless that photo shows blood, blue tongue or other obvious signs of roughness or long term tightness, as moment in time is very much misleading.
 

ycbm

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I agree with you in principle about moments of truth Red, but nobody forced him to use those particular photos to advertise his clothes, he chose them. And the younger and some of the more inexperienced people following him now think that's the right position for a horse's head to be in long term, and that they way to get it is to sit leaning back with extreme curvature of the spine.
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Red-1

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I agree with you in principle about moments of truth Red, but nobody forced him to use those particular photos to advertise his clothes, he chose them. And the younger and some of the more inexperienced people following him now think that's the right position for a horse's head to be in long term, and that they way to get it is to sit leaning back with extreme curvature of the spine.
.

I agree that some inexperienced and easily influenced people may well now think that he looks cool and try to emulate. Where I disagree is that someone selling clothes should be responsible for other people's ignorance of a particular sport. I think, when you are learning a new skill, you should seek out information from people qualified to teach (by experience, reputation or qualification) not look at promotional material for selling clothes. I think learners have to take some personal responsibility for where they direct their learning efforts.

I don't think a clothes seller should have to bear that responsibility. I presume the man chose the images where his muscles looked most flexed, to show that the clothes showed the muscles?

I recollect, way back, on a separate thread about horsey images in marketing, I have made previous comments on the strange choice of photos. One was a wonderfully lit and composed photo of a plaited horse, can't remember what it was advertising, but it may have been the online entries web site. The lighting and artistry were FAB, the plaits were awful! I thought it was a strange choice of photo, but didn't think that they should immediately take it down in case people mistook it for an instructional photo of how to plait.

Another was a firm selling brightly coloured exercise sheets, I think it was Harrison something. The photo was again nicely done, but the rider was obviously not a rider, toes down, no strength in the lower leg. TBH, I would not have a rider with such an insecure position out hacking, however bright the exercise sheet. But, nor did I think that the manufacturer was to be held responsible for inexperienced people emulating the toe down stance, or hacking when not secure.

As far as the over bent goes, it would be far better if BTV and tension were punished in low marks by the people who are responsible for setting standards, judges, rather than a clothing manufacturer who was seeking to show how the clothes fit, allow you to move and show your physique.
 

AShetlandBitMeOnce

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As far as the over bent goes, it would be far better if BTV and tension were punished in low marks by the people who are responsible for setting standards, judges, rather than a clothing manufacturer who was seeking to show how the clothes fit, allow you to move and show your physique.

I agree with this line absolutely, and I also completely understand the point you are making. I don't think the buck stops with them by any means but neither of your examples are of any detriment to the horse should it be emulated by the more naive. Whereas the degree that this horse is btv, would. The horse is clearly very well schooled and appears to be well muscled, enough so that he could have chosen 10 seconds of the hour (presumably) of footage they would have shot that day, but no, he chose the 10 seconds that looks like the screenshots in the OP to advertise his business. That's where it doesn't sit well with me. I have no problem and completely understand that btv will happen with horses, it's one of those things, but when it's selected as the best representation of a schooling or photoshoot session, it's not right.

I also probably jumped on this tik tok feeling exasperated having seen 15 previously of a similar ilk from various posters.

Unfortunately there’s a big trend in worrying about where the horse’s head is and not about a complete picture-not just on social media, but everywhere it seems. You should check out @blondedressage on tik tok, she’s a fantastic creator and her commentary has always been spot on. Her old horse was doing Spanish walk and piaffes without any gadgets-she’s a true dressage rider IMO

I do follow this lady, and I have actually learnt a lot from her videos! She's brilliant. I believe there is some controversy with her where some people really don't like her but it may be someone else, I just have a vague feeling I have read that in another thread somehere way back when. I don't see it though, I have always agreed with every video I have seen, she is doing a lot for the followers she does have.
 

TPO

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Why is everything someone else's fault? If you don't like what you see don't do it.

The good, the bad and the ugly is regularly online and in real life. Where the onus to educate yourself? The information is readily available in many mediums.

Sure the people doing the "bad" would ideally know and do better too but since when has "monkey see, monkey do" become the standard?

Sure there are not so great moments in an advert for riding clothes but clearly the priority was dramatic and atmospheric over everything else. There are plenty of pictures and videos of people with no seat and hands removing back teeth (usually with a tied shut mouth), gripping up with spurs inbedded in the horse's side, three miles behind over a jump and not a shred of balance on a circle and apparently that's OK because they "love" their horse and are "trying".

There is such a double standard on here between the views held regarding pros/people in the public eye vs "friends"; even more so if you compete in dressage. I know who I'd rather have on my horse even if there were some "ugly" moments in the learning process by a balanced and capable rider.
 

AShetlandBitMeOnce

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Why is everything someone else's fault? If you don't like what you see don't do it.

The good, the bad and the ugly is regularly online and in real life. Where the onus to educate yourself? The information is readily available in many mediums.

Sure the people doing the "bad" would ideally know and do better too but since when has "monkey see, monkey do" become the standard?

Sure there are not so great moments in an advert for riding clothes but clearly the priority was dramatic and atmospheric over everything else. There are plenty of pictures and videos of people with no seat and hands removing back teeth (usually with a tied shut mouth), gripping up with spurs inbedded in the horse's side, three miles behind over a jump and not a shred of balance on a circle and apparently that's OK because they "love" their horse and are "trying".

There is such a double standard on here between the views held regarding pros/people in the public eye vs "friends"; even more so if you compete in dressage. I know who I'd rather have on my horse even if there were some "ugly" moments in the learning process by a balanced and capable rider.

I would rather have neither ride my horse if it were up to me - I'm also not sure if you have ever met a teenager, but when an 'attractive' and professional looking young man is involved, it very much is monkey see monkey do.. Do you not remember when they all started eating Tide Pods?

The onus is on their parents, but the concept of social responsibility is also a thing, especially when you have the opportunity and it would be so easy to do better.
 

TPO

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I would rather have neither ride my horse if it were up to me - I'm also not sure if you have ever met a teenager, but when an 'attractive' and professional looking young man is involved, it very much is monkey see monkey do.. Do you not remember when they all started eating Tide Pods?

The onus is on their parents, but the concept of social responsibility is also a thing, especially when you have the opportunity and it would be so easy to do better.

It's a while ago but I was once a teenager. I still put my horse first over what or how anyone else rode. Admittedly I didn't have SM but I was surrounded by older people doing things that I never would to my pony.

In modern times I've been on livery with teenagers and some were horrors and some (well one) was lovely and very focused on her pony.

It would be rare to find a child keeping a pony in a vacuum. The safety and wellbeing of the child is the responsibility of an adult. I don't see the connection between a child watching a t-shirt advert and an adult allowing cruel training methods (as rollkur is alluded to upthread).
 

AShetlandBitMeOnce

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It's a while ago but I was once a teenager. I still put my horse first over what or how anyone else rode. Admittedly I didn't have SM but I was surrounded by older people doing things that I never would to my pony.

In modern times I've been on livery with teenagers and some were horrors and some (well one) was lovely and very focused on her pony.

It would be rare to find a child keeping a pony in a vacuum. The safety and wellbeing of the child is the responsibility of an adult. I don't see the connection between a child watching a t-shirt advert and an adult allowing cruel training methods (as rollkur is alluded to upthread).

I think it's short sighted though to assume that everyone treats animals with the understanding and respect that you always have. I would love to think that all teenagers are wonderful but if they are keen to keep up with the Jones' and see professionals using a particular technique then it wouldn't be unusual that they would have a go at doing the same. An adult can tell them no of course, but if they were like I was as a teenager and dropped off at the yard at 'x' hour and picked up 6 hours later, then they wouldn't be around all the time.

Two schools of thought, both quite reasonable in their own way. Agree to disagree I think :)
 
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