What to do when there is not turnout HELP!!

[Winters100]

Horses galloping around a field are almost always over fed, it’s not a normal thing for them to do. Any horse running around here immediately has it’s feed cut or work increased. Most injuries occur in the field.

I'm sure that this is true in many cases, but I would say that my geldings always have a good gallop up the hill when turned out in the morning. Old lady pony not so much, but she has been known to join in. I am pretty sure that I don't overfeed as they are not fat, but in winter they are inside dusk until dawn, so now around 3-30pm until 7am, and they are fit, so I tend to view it as just blowing off steam. Maybe I should be more worried than I am, but I actually really enjoy seeing them having fun and playing. I know that there is always a risk of injury, but truthfully if they were to be injured I would feel less guilt if it were a field accident than as a result of my riding them.

 

[Lyle]

One of my mares foaled down last year using her field shelter. I had bedded it down with straw and she had been nesting in it in the lead up. At 2.30 am on windy, wet, wild night she delivered her foal. Her foal spent most of his first day in that shelter, even though he and mum had free access to the field. As hes grown, he uses the shelter quite happily even if mum is down the back of the field, particularly if it's raining. Conditioning at its finest!

 

[little_critter]

I only asked because it does seem that many horses on individual turnout prefer to come in when the weather turns. I assume because they don’t have the strong connection and desire to stay with their field mates that horses kept in a herd have.

I have a mare and a gelding who are turned out together. Gelding loves his turnout, mare will be clammering to come in (and will break electric fences to do so) from Dec onwards. Does it every year. She has company who wants to stay out and is calm, but she wants in.

 

[southerncomfort]

The alternative to keeping in 24/7 is not 'standing in mud'.

I have mud around the gates and at the lower end of my winter field which I have now fenced off. The hay feeder is moved every 2 or 3 days to stop the ground becoming poached. The rest of the turnout area is grass, not mud. Currently they are running about in the snow and thoroughly enjoying themselves.

Yes it looks awful by spring but I roll, harrow and reseed as necessary in the spring and it always recovers.

YO's need to remember they're running a livery yard not a bowls club and provide a turnout area. Even if turnout is restricted, the horses need time to move, to have a period of autonomy where they can make their own choices about where to go etc, and to freely interact with at least one other horse.

 

[Gloi]

We used to have 24/7 grazing in London so fail to underestand why a Livery yard does not have sufficient grazing for the number of horses that are kept on their yards.

London only gets about 27" of rain a year.
We get double that and many places even more.
My yard has sand paddocks in winter but there are hardly any places with winter grazing in the area, the land is all clay , and even less with fields in a state I'd keep my pony in.
I was lucky previously as my friend had a field which had previously been a chicken farm so there was concrete areas and hardcore under lots of the grass so good for winter, but sadly their other field has now gone for building do no room for me anymore. I'm relieved I no longer have my oldie as he had always been out and wouldn't settle in a stable and wouldn't eat while in one. Youngster loves his stable which I was surprised about as he spent his first three years living out in quite exposed conditions. Maybe he's seen enough rain for a lifetime ?

 

[Sossigpoker]

The alternative to keeping in 24/7 is not 'standing in mud'.

YO's need to remember they're running a livery yard not a bowls club and provide a turnout area. Even if turnout is restricted, the horses need time to move, to have a period of autonomy where they can make their own choices about where to go etc, and to freely interact with at least one other horse.

This is so true and a constant battle. A lot of yard owners easily forget that we liveries are paying customers and our horses have needs , great that they want things to look nice but that's not what we're paying for.


Wish I had the money to have stables and land at home ! ☹

 

[Annagain]

I always find these debates really interesting as the argument always seems to be that turnout is best for the horse and keeping them in is best for the owner.

I'm a huge fan of turnout (and wouldn't keep horses if I couldn't get them out every day for a good 8 hours or more) but it's as much for my benefit as it is for the horses. I work full time in a demanding job and even though I don't have kids, I have lots of other family and volunteering commitments, a decent social life (well pre 2020!), a house to look after (along with my OH) and other animals. I simply wouldn't have the time to muck out twice a day AND exercise a stabled horse. I could maybe afford full livery but for me, there's no point in having a horse and not seeing it everyday and I'd still not like to feel that pressure of having to ride. I've done box rest with Monty in the past and it's exhausting, and that's without the exercising too!

Having said that, there are many people who can and do manage stabled horses very well and some horses who have to be or prefer to be in. It's when they're not managed properly it becomes a welfare issue - as is the case when field kept horses aren't fed adequately, or get mud fever etc which isn't addressed. Good care is good care and bad care is bad care no matter where the horses are.

Ours are out for about 11 hours a day in winter and 24/7 in summer. I'd love to keep them out all year round but it's just not possible where we are. All the horses at our yard are very settled. We have very little drama or galloping about or fighting although one or two of them play a bit. A lot of what they do is habit - they hang around the gate at coming in time in winter but in summer we have to go looking for them. They're ready to come in knowing food is waiting but they're equally happy to go out of a morning (especially Monty who won't wee in his stable). I think they'd happily have their fill of food and go out again (we don't put hay in the field) but I don't know that for certain.

For most of us with leisure horses, we'd love to have as much turnout as possible but it's often not our decision, land is at a premium, winters are getting wetter, horse ownership is on the rise from what I've seen, It's more and more difficult to make livery pay. Some of the yards in my area turn out mares and geldings on alternate days, others half days each (how you manage this when working full time, I have no idea). We're lucky at our yard that the YO inherited the farm so has no mortgage and uses the horses to supplement the farm's main income which is from pedigree sheep so she can afford to have fewer horses and offer more turnout. We're also at the top of a hill that drains well and there's bedrock about 1ft beneath the soil so it never gets too muddy. We pay a premium compared to other yards but we're happy to do this to have what we have. The other yards in the area would need to cut their stock by at least 1/3 to be in the same position but it's either not viable or the YOs want to get as much money as possible and while people are happy (or feel they have no choice but) to accept these turnout conditions it will continue.

By the way, I chuck them out and chuck them in on a daily basis!

 

[HelenBack]

I just wonder if the the OP put their original post in to start an argument like this one!

 

[exracehorse]

I just wonder if the the OP put their original post in to start an argument like this one!

I’ve actually forgotten what the original post was about ?

 

[windand rain]

Probably as it always causes the argument as to be honest people will keep horses regardless of whether they have the correct welfare conditions for the horse which ever that may be. Sticking to the animal freedoms might be best all round make them the true animal rights

 

[ycbm]

YO's need to remember they're running a livery yard not a bowls club

The trouble is that in many parts of the country yard owners don't have to remember anything. Since 42 years ago when I first bought a horse I've been aware of livery yards around me in Reading, Wokingham, Bristol, Bath, Gloucester, Cheshire and Debyshire which don't offer daily winter turnout were full with a waiting list..

With this wholesale "cruelty" going on decade after decade I would expect more seriously unhappy horses, but I'm not seeing them.

I've tried always to get my horses some turnout, (failed in the winters of 1989/90 and 1990/91), and I can't be doing with this vilifying (not referring to you here SC) of people whose horses appear quite content with their management.
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[windand rain]

But are we not seeing more horses with ulcers/behavioural problems/obesity etc or are they just diagnosed more now. My experience is a mixture of both and perhaps horses becoming more disposable too.

 

[ycbm]

But are we not seeing more horses with ulcers/behavioural problems/obesity etc or are they just diagnosed more now. My experience is a mixture of both and perhaps horses becomong more disposable too.

Ulcers diagnosed more, they were unheard of in the last century, ime. Obesity isn't linked with lack of turnout, I don't think. Most obese horses I see are getting far too much grass. Behaviour? No, I don't think so. I see a lot more people owning highly strung (sports) horses who are inexperienced and/or lacking confidence. Those people used to be going to riding schools or possibly owning a hairy pony in the past, I think.
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ETA in my horse owning lifetime, I don't think horses have ever been considered less disposable than they are today. I'd never even heard of anyone without land of their own retiring a horse, or criticised for putting down a horse that can't be ridden so they can buy one that can, until the last decade or so.
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[PinkvSantaboots]

Turnout needs are very questionable in my opinion the slightest change in management or yard move can change a horses behaviour in regards to what they want.

Arabi has been in for 6 weeks so Louis has to go out on his own the first 4 days he just stood on the hardstanding at the back of my stables close to Arabi, then he started to graze for short periods about halfway down the field but in 6 weeks he hasn't gone to the very far end of the field.

His quite happy to come in and have a short days turnout whereas this is a horse that really does not like the stable, but his priority is being with Arabi so the field doesn't really seem that important at the moment, if I tried to keep him in alone he would have a full on tantrum.

I think the recognising of how to keep them is key and if that is less turnout then so be it, I hate to see horses hanging by a muddy gate hungry and kicking off in winter the poor sods have been out hours and want in, but because it suits some people to leave them until the evening that's what happens.

 

[Alibear]

Apologies if this has already been covered but could you put him on a maintenance doze of whatever drugs you used to treat the ulcers until the fields open up again? I know it's expensive but it's worth it in the long run and compared to the supplements some people feed, it's not much more expensive.

 

[scats]

With the winters we are getting now, I can see why yards are reluctant to allow field turnout in the depths, especially if they need these fields all year round.

I wonder if more yards will opt for some sort of all weather turnout? I have no problem with yards limiting turnout in bad weather, but I do think that if it’s going on for weeks on end, there should be somewhere that people can turn horses out for a roll and a wander. I do think that allowing them some freedom each day to move as they wish, is important.
My old yard didn’t have the greatest field turnout in winter (for at least two months of the winter it was pretty much unusable), but we had the choice of rubber turnout paddocks. Some mixed (mare and gelding split) and others individual (or paired if your preferred). You could work it that your horse got a couple of hours out morning and evening, and combined with riding, you could give them a fairly varied day, even in the depths.

As for there being more cases of ulcers etc now, I think that it’s simply a case that we look for them now. God knows how many of the horses on our yard had ulcers when we kids. Anything that turned around and bit you while you were girthing it up just got growled at.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Around here more yards are putting in all weather turn out areas.
My cob is coping OK without grass turn out as we have a turn out pen where he can go for a run around and a roll - without that I wouldn't be very happy.

 

[ycbm]

I'm increasingly driving round the countryside seeing miserable looking horses stood picking at a haynet in the cold and rain in an all weather pen.

I keep imagining the owners, if I was dumb enough to challenge them, saying "but they're out! ".

 

[Sossigpoker]

I'm increasingly driving round the countryside seeing miserable looking horses stood picking at a haynet in the cold and rain in an all weather pen.

I keep imagining the owners, if I was dumb enough to challenge them, saying "but they're out! ".

I agree. Mine only goes out for max one hour ,often less , as soon as he's had a roll he's ready to come in /go for hand grazing. I think he'd go through the fence if I tried to leave him out there for hours!

 

[Gallop_Away]

Again I wonder if people are confusing horse's acceptance of a situation with contentment. Horses are generally very amenable animals and can be conditioned to accept many situations but that does not necessarily mean they are happy/content.
I wonder how people deem a horse to be happy? I'm not being facetious by the way. I'm not an expert in equine behaviour so I'm genuinely curious. What would people define as a "happy" as opposed to miserable horse? Signs of visible stress would be an obvious sign of unhappiness but horses can sometimes be more subtle. After all they are a prey animal and signs of stress in their mind attract unwanted attention.
I'm also curious if horses are indifferent to the situation and may be perfectly happy stabled for the majority of the day, why do some horses appear so "delighted" when they are eventually turned out.
I have previously worked on yards with p2p horses. These horses were stabled October through to June. They were ridden out daily and also frequently went on the horse walker. The majority of them seemed perfectly "happy" in their stables.
Yet come the end of the end of the season when they went out for the summer they would loose their minds for the first few hours in the field. Galloping, rolling, snorting, bucking.....for several hours at a time.
If they did not care about being in their stables why the show of "delight/joy/happiness" at being turned out? I use those words lightly as like I say I'm not an expert, but reading their body language and outward appearance (my personal way rightly/wrongly of interpreting a horses mood) they seem pretty over joyed at being let out?

 

[ycbm]

GA I'd ask exactly the same question as to how you are so absolutely sure that horses are happier out.

Change excites some horses, being in ridden on company excites some horses, who knows why they show these signs of excitement? They are transitory, I really don't think you can judge anything much by them.

We don't have the evidence either way.

ETA I wish we did but the study quoted earlier is very, very flawed. I would like to see every horse with grass turnout in company in a minimum of an acre for a minimum of 4 hours a day. But if we demanded that standard by law, that would condemn many horses to never being born at all, and I'm really not sure that's a choice they would make.
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[Gallop_Away]

I'm increasingly driving round the countryside seeing miserable looking horses stood picking at a haynet in the cold and rain in an all weather pen.

I keep imagining the owners, if I was dumb enough to challenge them, saying "but they're out! ".

I wouldn't be happy with this either to be fair. Mine are happy going out in the morning but they are also happy to come in each night or have the odd duvet day in horrendous weather. Happy medium and all that.

 

[Gallop_Away]

GA I'd ask exactly the same question as to how you are so absolutely sure that horses are happier out.

Change excites some horses, being in ridden on company excites some horses, who knows why they show these signs of excitement?

We don't have the evidence either way.
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No you're right we don't know for certain either way, but like I say I have my own way of judging my horses happiness (rightly or wrong). I was curious how other people judged it that's all.

 

[TheMule]

GA I'd ask exactly the same question as to how you are so absolutely sure that horses are happier out.

Change excites some horses, being in ridden on company excites some horses, who knows why they show these signs of excitement? They are transitory, I really don't think you can judge anything much by them.

We don't have the evidence either way.
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Which is why so many successful systems offer a stable with an attached pen. It offers a horse a very simple choice. You provide forage in both areas and they can choose.
Mine normally have a choice between hardstanding with a feeder, a huge field shelter bedded down with straw with hay nets up, or the field where they always have grass as I don’t overgraze my fields. They move between the 3 areas though rarely spend long in the shelter in the winter- they're much more likely to be in there in the Summer for the flies.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Which is why so many successful systems offer a stable with an attached pen. It offers a horse a very simple choice. You provide forage in both areas and they can choose.
Mine normally have a choice between hardstanding with a feeder, a huge field shelter bedded down with straw with hay nets up, or the field where they always have grass as I don’t overgraze my fields. They move between the 3 areas though rarely spend long in the shelter in the winter- they're much more likely to be in there in the Summer for the flies.

This sounds wonderful but sadly only something I can only dream of.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Again I wonder if people are confusing horse's acceptance of a situation with contentment. Horses are generally very amenable animals and can be conditioned to accept many situations but that does not necessarily mean they are happy/content.
I wonder how people deem a horse to be happy? I'm not being facetious by the way. I'm not an expert in equine behaviour so I'm genuinely curious. What would people define as a "happy" as opposed to miserable horse? Signs of visible stress would be an obvious sign of unhappiness but horses can sometimes be more subtle. After all they are a prey animal and signs of stress in their mind attract unwanted attention.
I'm also curious if horses are indifferent to the situation and may be perfectly happy stabled for the majority of the day, why do some horses appear so "delighted" when they are eventually turned out.
I have previously worked on yards with p2p horses. These horses were stabled October through to June. They were ridden out daily and also frequently went on the horse walker. The majority of them seemed perfectly "happy" in their stables.
Yet come the end of the end of the season when they went out for the summer they would loose their minds for the first few hours in the field. Galloping, rolling, snorting, bucking.....for several hours at a time.
If they did not care about being in their stables why the show of "delight/joy/happiness" at being turned out? I use those words lightly as like I say I'm not an expert, but reading their body language and outward appearance (my personal way rightly/wrongly of interpreting a horses mood) they seem pretty over joyed at being let out?

I wonder if the galloping around etc when turned out after a long winter in is just a change of routine upsetting them? I had to reintroduce my horse to turnout again after last winter in. The fields were lovely , there was plenty of grass, the weather was lovely. Nope, he managed 30 mins out before running round screaming to come in. I had to reintroduce it slowly. I remember a lovely NH horse that was tipped to be a real superstar the following year being turned out after a winter of racing. He galloped down the field, slid, fell and broke his neck.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

RE the study I linked to. It has had a positive effect on one horse despite its faults. My gelding has never settled in the stables I have here and after reading the study I decided to have some windows put in between the loose boxes so that he can see the other horses when they don't have their heads over their stable doors. He can also have physical contact with his next door neighbour now. I may not stable my horses much, but now when he is in, he isn't weaving and/or box walking.

 

[HashRouge]

There is a yard near my parents that has set up an Equicentral livery yard system. It belongs to the mum of one of my old school friends and I used to keep my Arab there way back when I first got her. Winter turnout was not good when I was there, although as I was a child and it was close to home, I put up with it for longer than I probably should have done. However, my friend moved home after university with lots of big ideas and with some investment they have set up a really good "equicentral" livery system. They basically have a large area of mud free hard standing and tracks, with ad lib hay in assorted feeders and nets and a large run-in shelter (open at both ends). The horse get access to the fields for a certain number of hours per day, but only go out in winter if the land is dry enough (they're on heavy clay). It works really well and is a great alternative to "traditional" livery - I'm always really impressed when I see it. I'd keep my horses there without question if I ever moved back to the area. Although the one downside is that it is really quite expensive compared to traditional DIY.

 

[ycbm]

There is a yard near my parents that has set up an Equicentral livery yard system. It belongs to the mum of one of my old school friends and I used to keep my Arab there way back when I first got her. Winter turnout was not good when I was there, although as I was a child and it was close to home, I put up with it for longer than I probably should have done. However, my friend moved home after university with lots of big ideas and with some investment they have set up a really good "equicentral" livery system. They basically have a large area of mud free hard standing and tracks, with ad lib hay in assorted feeders and nets and a large run-in shelter (open at both ends). The horse get access to the fields for a certain number of hours per day, but only go out in winter if the land is dry enough (they're on heavy clay). It works really well and is a great alternative to "traditional" livery - I'm always really impressed when I see it. I'd keep my horses there without question if I ever moved back to the area. Although the one downside is that it is really quite expensive compared to traditional DIY.

That isn't near Glossop is it? If not, there's one there as well. It's a terrific system.
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[Tiddlypom]

It's incumbent upon us all to ensure that our particular horses' needs are met as well as we possibly can.

Some sort of turnout every day is the ideal, we all agree, but how good is that turnout, and what simple changes could be made to improve it? Hardstanding for gateways and feeding areas? Proper gates instead of electric gates which are fiddly to use and risk zapping you and the horse? A field shelter?

For those who insist that their horses dislike their field shelters or stables, maybe consider why that is (though it clear that many of you already do). How can they be made more inviting? Maybe a swap of stables on a livery yard - some horses like busy places with lots to see, others like quiet spots. Some horses like talk grilles, some don't. Maybe adding a window, or insulation, may make a stable more appealing.

And my 3 voting tonight that the smaller field shelter (which faces south) offers much better protection against the driving northerly wind and sleet showers than a hedge ?.