What to do when there is not turnout HELP!!

[Rokele55]

An interesting debate. I have worked on yards where there was little or no turnout through the winter and yards where horses were out for some hours most days when it was safe, Young stock and broodmares out during daylight hours in the winter, as long as you could get them out safely and yarded with plenty of hay at night. The working horses really worked and were good and fit hunters, showing, dressage, pointers etc.. There were no incidences of stable vices or colic I can remember in the full time stabled horses except a few of the pointers got a bit twitchy when about to race. A few would buck you off with lack of exercise generally due to weather restrictions or injury rest and the boredom that could bring about. But turnout was not possible for those anyway. They also had 'herd rest' for at least a few months a year and completely let down. Azoturia (sp) could be an issue with a few and had to be managed accordin gly. But my query is; giving a horse a completely natural life would need to include introducing predators to their lives and the space to outrun them and ensuring the mares had a foal a year, for a few examples. So are we still cherry picking what we think is the correct management to suit ourselves. Personally plenty of off road ridden exercise and a big clean field for a few hours with a friend is my preference for a horse in proper work, clipped and rugged. But that is idealistic for most I suspect.

 

[bouncing_ball]

My boy had 6 weeks box rest following surgery. I hand grazed twice a day for 30 minutes each time. His in hand walking also started at 10 minutes twice a day and built up to 40 minutes twice a day. I added herbs, herbal / meadow chaffs, gut support and picked a wide range of suitable plants and leaf branches to forage on. He always had a neighbour. Daily grooming and back massage pad. Also found lots of enrichment ideas and exercises. And he graduated to walk poles. My yard is a 50 minute round trip, was going twice a day. Only do-able as it was a six week stint. I work full time. It was a long six weeks. Normally he’s out 16 hours, stabled 8 hours all year round. And he’s never that keen to come in, though once in loves sleeping in deep bed.

 

[Cortez]

That is your opinion which you are of course entitled to
I watch my horses frequently galloping and bucking around their field. Perfectly calm and not looking for the nasty horse eating monster, but just enjoying a dam good hoon around. I watch them groom one another and roll around in the mud next to each other. They seem happy enough to me.
I stand by my opinion that keeping most horses stabled for the majority of the day for the owner's own convenience cruel and I make no apologies for that.

Horses galloping around a field are almost always over fed, it’s not a normal thing for them to do. Any horse running around here immediately has it’s feed cut or work increased. Most injuries occur in the field.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Horses galloping around a field are almost always over fed, it’s not a normal thing for them to do. Any horse running around here immediately has it’s feed cut or work increased. Most injuries occur in the field.

IME sometimes herds of horses in fields will run about briefly for the sheer joy of movement. Even if well exercised regularly and fed hay and fed only a token amount of high fibre low energy bucket feed.

It’s just what horses do, snd if good ground, fit and well socialised fairly low risk.

The biggest risk I see in winter is bored hungry horses play fighting / squabbling around the gate and injuring one another.

 

[Lyle]

Horses galloping around a field are almost always over fed, it’s not a normal thing for them to do. Any horse running around here immediately has it’s feed cut or work increased. Most injuries occur in the field.

Even youngstock?
Of the 18 horses I have here at the moment they all often go for hoolies, play, rough house. Ages from weanlings to ridden horses, although the older ones tend to limit their galloping to feed time. They are in very large paddocks though (upwards of 6 acres). Usually it starts with one breaking into canter on the way down the hill to the dam for a drink, and the others follow (and there is usually a bit of a swim and argy bargy in the water, too!) And then they take off again, I love watching them!

 

[Cortez]

Even youngstock?
Of the 18 horses I have here at the moment they all often go for hoolies, play, rough house. Ages from weanlings to ridden horses, although the older ones tend to limit their galloping to feed time. They are in very large paddocks though (upwards of 6 acres). Usually it starts with one breaking into canter on the way down the hill to the dam for a drink, and the others follow (and there is usually a bit of a swim and argy bargy in the water, too!) And then they take off again, I love watching them!

Young horses do run about and play more.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

With all due respect to those saying horses csn be happy living stabled 24/7 if adequately ridden, I absolutely cannot personally agree.
I cannot fathom how anyone can genuinely believe that an animal designed to roam many miles in a day, live as a Herd, eat with it's head down on the floor etc can be truly happy living trapped in a box with no social interaction with it's own species, often eating from haynets which puts their bodies in completely the wrong position.
Stabling has it's place for box rest or overnight/day time when needed of course but how can we really justify keeping them cooped up??
I've said this before and I'll say it again...if I put my Great Dane in my bathroom (rough equivalent of an average sized horse in a standard 12 x 12 stable) with a food and water bowl, gave him a quick clean once or twice a day, walked him for one hour to exercise him and ensured he had no other doggy or possibly even person interaction, I'd have people calling me cruel and abusive along with the RSPCA up my arse so fast!!!!
I do realise that it's not a "one size fits all" situation but honestly I despair when I think of how "normal" it is to keep horses in for months on end

 

[scats]

I think that people do tend to misinterpret the horses fairly amenable nature (provided there is food on offer) as being ‘happy’.
They will largely come to accept whatever circumstances they are in, be it living out or living in. I find that those who say that their horse waits at the gate after an hour are either guilty of bringing them in to a haynet then, thus further strengthening the chance of this repeat behaviour, or have their horse out in a field with very little grass. I know when my girls wants to move fields because they will start waiting to come in. But as soon as they are moved to their new field, with grass, I have to wander down in the dark every night to get them.
I realise not everyone is in the fortunate position of having good grazing in winter, but I do find people like to convince themselves their horses are happier in a stable because it makes them feel better about the situation they are in.

Horses are largely governed by their stomachs, which makes sense given that they are designed to graze 16 hours a day. They will generally settle down where there is food. Whether we can truly decide a horse is happy being in a box for 22 hours a day, because it’s got a haynet, is a different matter. I would hazard a guess that scoping a lot of these horses would suggest otherwise.
It would not be acceptable to have a dog in a crate for 22 hours a day and just take it out for its walk. I’m always quite surprised that people still think this is an acceptable life for a horse.

 

[ycbm]

They will largely come to accept whatever circumstances they are in, be it living out or living in

I would have huge trouble defining the difference between that and "content" and I see nothing wrong with content.

There is a difference between content and resigned/shut down and I honestly believe I've seen at least 150 horses, long term, content with living in during the winter.
.

 

[ycbm]

I wish people would stop comparing pack hunting predator dogs with prey species horses. Dogs are programed to survive by hunting, horses are programed to survive by avoiding being hunted. There is a fundamental safety to being inside four walls and brought food that satisfies the most basic needs of a horse and that isn't the case for a dog.
.

 

[ycbm]

if I put my Great Dane in my bathroom (rough equivalent of an average sized horse in a standard 12 x 12 stable) with a food and water bowl, gave him a quick clean once or twice a day, walked him for one hour to exercise him and ensured he had no other doggy or possibly even person interaction, I'd have people

There is simply no comparison between that and what happens with a group of horses in a stable yard.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Horses galloping around a field are almost always over fed, it’s not a normal thing for them to do. Any horse running around here immediately has it’s feed cut or work increased. Most injuries occur in the field.

Sorry but that's a load of horse poo ? mine are certainly not over fed. They have plenty of forage but minimal hard feed and are still fairly fit for this time of year.
It isn't a daily occurrence but I do catch them on the odd morning just having a bit of a jolly around the field.

 

[Tiddlypom]

These discussions always go the same way .

People will get very aerated and start referring to 'cages'.

No one is saying that stabling a horse without access to turnout is ideal. But like ycbm I have seen it done well, on busy working yards where the horse were both worked hard, were out of their stables for several times a day, and also had lots of goings on look at when back in their stables. The horses seemed content and unstressed.

It would not suit creaky or young horses, it is only suitable for horses in hard work. No, it's not ideal, but it's not 'cruel' if done well. But far too often it's not done well, and that's when it really does become a welfare issue. It would not work for the average diy livery who works full time and can only attend to their horse once or twice a day at either end of the day.

Just an hour's turnout a day on a good surface for the horse to have a buck, a fart, a graze, a munch and a roll is much better for the horse's mental wellbeing than no turnout.

Too many horses which are 'out' do just stand in bottomless mud round a ring feeder, though .

 

[ycbm]

With the greatest of respect ycbm you do not know me or my experience with horses. I currently own 3 but have worked with horses and been around horses most of my life. My husband has also had over 30 years experience with horses.
I do not base my opinion solely on just my own horses but also through my own experience of horses over the years.
I reiterate. I would not deem it acceptable to lock an animal in a cage for most of the day. I would consider it cruel and horses imo are no different. There may be some carefully managed exeptions, and again I would argue the level of management these horses would require as a substitute to turnout would be beyond the capabilities of the average owner.
We are clearly not going to see eye to eye on the matter so I'm happy to leave it at that?

Accepted. I still do not think it is reasonable or polite to call other people cruel when you have not seen their horses.

 

[Gallop_Away]

it's not ideal, but it's not 'cruel' if done well. But far too often it's not done well, and that's when it really does become a welfare issue.

Agreed. As I say there may be some cases where a yard has the facilities/staff to ensure a horse has adequate exercise, hand grazing, and down time outside the stable and free of a handler but all too often this is not the case and I would definitely argue it is a welfare issue.
People may get twitchy at the words "cages" and "cruel" but I think it's a sad reality for many horses stabled for the majority of the day.
I would not entertain having mine stood knee deep in bog either to be fair. That is also far from ideal.

Accepted. I still do not think it is reasonable or polite to call other people cruel when you have not seen their horses.

I have not called anyone specific cruel. I have said that I think keeping a horse stabled for most of the day with no turnout and limit exercise cruel in the majority of cases. I find it quite sad that someone wouldn't see anything wrong with this to be honest.....
I have acknowledged that there may be some exceptions where it suits the particular horse or the owner has sufficient time/resources to manage the horse appropriately to account for lack of turnout, but I don’t think this is easy to achieve and most average owners would struggle.

 

[scats]

These discussions always go the same way .

People will get very aerated and start referring to 'cages'.

No one is saying that stabling a horse without access to turnout is ideal. But like ycbm I have seen it done well, on busy working yards where the horse were both worked hard, were out of their stables for several times a day, and also had lots of goings on look at when back in their stables. The horses seemed content and unstressed.

It would not suit creaky or young horses, it is only suitable for horses in hard work. No, it's not ideal, but it's not 'cruel' if done well. But far too often it's not done well, and that's when it really does become a welfare issue. It would not work for the average diy livery who works full time and can only attend to their horse once or twice a day at either end of the day.

Just an hour's turnout a day on a good surface for the horse to have a buck, a fart, a graze, a munch and a roll is much better for the horse's mental wellbeing than no turnout.

Too many horses which are 'out' do just stand in bottomless mud round a ring feeder, though .

I don’t think there’s any problem with people having different opinions. Isn’t that the whole point of a forum? I don’t agree with a lot of the comments on this thread, but I recognise that’s other peoples views and I certainly don’t see the need to eye roll about it.
It’s interesting to see how different people view it.

 

[I'm Dun]

My 3 are out 24/7. They do stand about the hay for long periods. But they have 3 bales in different locations so tend to wander in between. They also wander off to eat grass and browse the hedges and trees. Oh and they gallop around sometimes. 4, 6 and 20 ish, and none of them being fed hard feed. And sometimes they run for the sheer joy of running. The OAP and the youngster play fight and box for hours as well.

My stable doors are open. 2 will go in for a proper lay down nap. The other one never goes in unless I take him in. He can and does stable as its a skill horses need to learn, but his strong preference is to be out. Hes an ex racer so I suspect his training days have had an impact.

The problem with this whole argument is, people tend to refer to the best and worst scenarios. I've worked on pro yards where I could accept horses being in have a reasonable quality of life. But they are the exception.
Have none of you ever been on a livery yard where the fields shut for winter? I have been on many and I can tell you now that owners are not coming three times a day to walk and exercise their horses! They stand in the box 24/7 unless being ridden or tied up outside while owners muck out. Some are lucky and get a run round in the school. I'd say the majority dont though. Given that I'd be quite happy for mine to stand round a ring feeder 24/7 if that was the only alternative.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

This is definitely the case with my older ponies. They live out 24/7, and I've spent a fortune on a lovely long mud control path for them to wander from the hay/water down to the shelter even when the ground is like pea soup.

They spend exactly half the day stood still at one haynet, then they walk 100yds down to the shelter where there's a second haynet. That's it! And they've got such a lovely field, with hawthorn and bramble hedges to nibble, and lovely views (OK, I'm clutching at straws now) but hay is king.

I take *some* comfort in the fact that 98% of the time they do choose the outside haynet first, but honestly, I'm not sure they'd even notice if they were stabled ?‍

That is interesting because ours spent the winter out 24/7 for the first time, with us, last year. Previously they would have been in over night and in bad weather. They now have acccess to a field shelter and mud control mats. They had access to a similar amount of hay as they would have had, inside. They both came through the winter a better (slimmer) weight than the previous year and we can only put that down to getting more exercise through being out 24/7. We put hay inthe shelter only, except in very good, still weather, so theoretically they could stand in there for most of the 24 hours but they don't.

 

[scats]

I wish people would stop comparing pack hunting predator dogs with prey species horses. Dogs are programed to survive by hunting, horses are programed to survive by avoiding being hunted. There is a fundamental safety to being inside four walls and brought food that satisfies the most basic needs of a horse and that isn't the case for a dog.
.

True, but fundamentally I don’t think a prey animal would ever choose to be locked in a place of no escape.

We can hark back to the predisposed predator/prey behaviour as much as we want for these kind of arguments, but the fact of the matter is that very few of us keep horses or dogs in a way that would be ‘natural’ to them, so I don’t always think that bringing up the natural instincts of an animal ever really holds much weight.

The bottom line is that most of us are doing our best with what we’ve got, but we should always look to try and improve things if we can (for ourselves, too!)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I know that I've posted this before but it is relevant to this thread. https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news...tabled-alone-show-signs-of-stress-study-shows

 

[ycbm]

I have not called anyone specific cruel.

Oh come on that's just semantics. You have said it's cruel to keep a horse in full time and you are therefore saying that anyone who does it is cruel, you really can't wriggle out of that one, just own it. You're entitled to your opinion.
.

 

[ycbm]

True, but fundamentally I don’t think a prey animal would ever choose to be locked in a place of no escape.

We can hark back to the predisposed predator/prey behaviour as much as we want for these kind of arguments, but the fact of the matter is that very few of us keep horses or dogs in a way that would be ‘natural’ to them, so I don’t always think that bringing up the natural instincts of an animal ever really holds much weight.

The bottom line is that most of us are doing our best with what we’ve got, but we should always look to try and improve things if we can (for ourselves, too!)

It is strange that you only quote me to write this answer, because actually most of the "natural behaviour" argument is coming from those who think it's wrong to keep horses in full time. And my comment was only in response to the comparison with keeping a dog locked in a bathroom.

I agree completely with your answer.

 

[ycbm]

we can only put that down to getting more exercise through being out 24/7.

How about being colder outside in a wind and using more energy to keep warm?
.

 

[Cortez]

I have kept horses in every possible set of circumstances you can imagine, from stabled full time to being out full time on a range of more than 1,000 acres. Every system has its pro and cons, but horses are very adaptable as well as being individuals. I have found the best for me, my horses and the current conditions to be a mix of field and stable. There is no rigid “one way” that suits every horse and every situation.

ETA the vast, vast majority of horses I have looked after like being in just as much as being out. Some have not liked being out at all, and only one has positively not liked being in a stable (I’ve had 100’s of horses in my care BTW).

 

[ycbm]

I know that I've posted this before but it is relevant to this thread. https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news...tabled-alone-show-signs-of-stress-study-shows

And I've criticised the study before for the same reason as I'm going to criticise it now.

During the study, horses were exposed to each housing design for five days and were turned out into grass paddocks for two days before exposure to the next design.

This gave the 16 horses in the study no time at all to become accustomed to the change of circumstances. It would be a very interesting study done on 100s of horses kept permanently in the way they are at the time they are measured.

 

[scats]

It is strange that you only quote me to write this answer, because actually most of the "natural behaviour" argument is coming from those who think it's wrong to keep horses in full time. And my comment was only in response to the comparison with keeping a dog locked in a bathroom.

I agree completely with your answer.

Not picking on your post, the simple reason is that I don’t know how to multi quote!

I totally agree that using the natural behaviours argument is a bit pointless when we chuck saddles on their backs and ride the things. I suppose I feel that trying to allow some sort of natural behaviour for a period of time has got to be better than not. But I think pretty much everyone on here is at least in agreement about that.

 

[ycbm]

Not picking on your post, the simple reason is that I don’t know how to multi quote!

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/by-popular-request-how-to-use-quotes.801889/

You're welcome ?

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I have yards much much closer to my house than the yard I’m in at the moment. They however don’t offer all year turnout so I drive the 13miles there and back costing myself a fortune in diesel each week that I could 1/4 by keeping him much closer but without guaranteed turnout.

Keeping a horse in for medical reasons is not the same as not turning out, that isn’t a valid comparison. I have box rested horses and not one of them has enjoyed it or adapted. One had to be sedated as she came over the door and another was a crabbit old pig who despite his normal stellar manner barged, bit and threatened kicking after a couple of weeks as he hated being in. Once the ground was dry he went into a small paddock in the field that I moved twice a week and he went back to his normal polite self.

I prefer horses to be out. It’s something I won’t really compromise on.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

How about being colder outside in a wind and using more energy to keep warm?
.

There was no need for them to stand in the wind, the shelter is deep and protects from the prevailing wind. So if they were affected by the wind,which they may well have been, they were exercising away from the shelter. The shelter was not avaialble to them in previous years, they could only shelter by standing with their bums to a high wall,which is still available to them.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

And I've criticised the study before for the same reason as I'm going to criticise it now.



This gave the 16 horses in the study no time at all to become accustomed to the change of circumstances. It would be a very interesting study done on 100s of horses kept permanently in the way they are at the time they are measured.

It's a start rather than a complete set of information, so I do agree with you that the number of horses was small and that the study wasn't long enough. However I think that a further study should include horses moved to a new way of being housed and then studied for longer.

The interesting parts of it for me were that fact that the horses were tested for stress via eye temperature readings and faecal samples. Horses are notoriously difficult to assess for stress levels by observation, as prey animals they naturally hide their stress. This is why an owner saying 'my horse looks content' is not scientifically reliable. Where does 'looking content' actually cross over into learnt helplessness? *

That is also why looking at animals freshly moved to a new way of being housed is important, there is no point in having a study where all the horses are used to or even in some cases resigned to how they are being kept. Moving that horse to a new system may improve or worsen their stress levels but you have to move them to find that out.

It would be a big and long study. I doubt that there is the money to do it sadly.




* I know from my own grey that they can completely fool you. She once looked perfectly calm but when the vet took her heart rate it was very high. She had been put in a stable where she had previously been given painful veterinary treatment and the same vet came in, so her heart rate rose as she was stressed by the situation. It was impossible to tell from her behaviour.